Meg Hair

[Frozen]

Was SU ever in the mix for her services?

 

[81South]

Meg is good but not SU good. Another example to show just how hard it is to get offers from big programs. Same can be said for Danielle Rauch.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Meg is good but not SU good. Another example to show just how hard it is to get offers from big programs. Same can be said for Danielle Rauch.

Both Hair and Rauch are going to great schools whose womens programs have ranked just around 25 to 35 the past few seasons.

Penn, Hair's destination, has won the Ivy League title in 3 of the 4 past years. Penn lost in the first round of the NCAA's last year by 2 points. This was their 3rd straight NCAA appearance.

Rauch's choice, Michigan, came in 3rd in the Big 10 last year and were disappointed to be left out of the NCAA's after being ranked in the top 25 during the year. However they lost in the 1st round of the big 10 tournament just missing getting an NCAA bid, going to the NIT's which they actually won last year. Both Penn and Michigan are on the cusp just like SU was just 3 to 4 years ago and where they may return after the heavy graduation losses this year.

Many women's players opt for their best academic option because of the lack of money in the WNBA. A free education is still considered a great bonus and the best benefit for players in the womens game.

 

[jr4750]

Both Hair and Rauch are going to great schools whose womens programs have ranked just around 25 to 35 the past few seasons.

Penn, Hair's destination, has won the Ivy League title in 3 of the 4 past years. Penn lost in the first round of the NCAA's last year by 2 points. This was their 3rd straight NCAA appearance.

Rauch's choice, Michigan, came in 3rd in the Big 10 last year and were disappointed to be left out of the NCAA's after being ranked in the top 25 during the year. However they lost in the 1st round of the big 10 tournament just missing getting an NCAA bid, going to the NIT's which they actually won last year. Both Penn and Michigan are on the cusp just like SU was just 3 to 4 years ago and where they may return after the heavy graduation losses this year.

Thanks Cherie! I am very interested in how the team will look this year as well. Really hope the transfers Q brought in last year can sustain the team success that we have seen over the last few seasons. Its been great to have them ranked and in the tourney competing. Truly believe Sykes and Peterson will be hard to replace as a leaders as well as basketball players.

 

[SUFan44]

Both Hair and Rauch are going to great schools whose womens programs have ranked just around 25 to 35 the past few seasons.

Penn, Hair's destination, has won the Ivy League title in 3 of the 4 past years. Penn lost in the first round of the NCAA's last year by 2 points. This was their 3rd straight NCAA appearance.

Rauch's choice, Michigan, came in 3rd in the Big 10 last year and were disappointed to be left out of the NCAA's after being ranked in the top 25 during the year. However they lost in the 1st round of the big 10 tournament just missing getting an NCAA bid, going to the NIT's which they actually won last year. Both Penn and Michigan are on the cusp just like SU was just 3 to 4 years ago and where they may return after the heavy graduation losses this year.

Many women's players opt for their best academic option because of the lack of money in the WNBA. A free education is still considered a great bonus and the best benefit for players in the womens game.

Penn's education will not be free for her, unless she fits the need-based aid criteria. No athletic scholarships.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Penn's education will not be free for her, unless she fits the need-based aid criteria. No athletic scholarships.

It's amazing the financial aid programs can provide. Financial Aid Changes Game as Sports Teams in Ivies Rise

 

[SUFan44]

It's amazing the financial aid programs can provide. Financial Aid Changes Game as Sports Teams in Ivies Rise

I worked at an Ivy League school for 4.5 years, and it was starting to change when I left. It really has changed the game in recruiting at those schools. Minimum academic requirements have also been lowered a bit.

That being said, I don't think her need-based financial aid package will be the same as a full athletic scholarship at all other non-Ivy institutions. She'll have to pay certain things. But I'm sure it's worth it in the eyes of her and her family.

 

[Cheriehoop]

I worked at an Ivy League school for 4.5 years, and it was starting to change when I left. It really has changed the game in recruiting at those schools. Minimum academic requirements have also been lowered a bit.

That being said, I don't think her need-based financial aid package will be the same as a full athletic scholarship at all other non-Ivy institutions. She'll have to pay certain things. But I'm sure it's worth it in the eyes of her and her family.

Yes, many of women's players value an education since they realize that it will be the real key to future earnings, not pro career earnings.

 

[Townie72]

Penn's education will not be free for her, unless she fits the need-based aid criteria. No athletic scholarships.

It's nice to hear from someone who actually has a clue on how the Ivy League works.

The big difference in the last several years is the change in how this aid is delivered. Instead of requiring student loans and work-study jobs, the Ivy League (almost embarrassed by the huge amount of money they had) now delivers all aid as a straight up grant.

 

[Townie72]

Yes, many of women's players value an education since they realize that it will be the real key to future earnings, not pro career earnings.

Yeah, but. studies by a Princeton professor have shown that athletes gain little if anything from attending an Ivy league school. Their careers and lifetime earnings are pretty much what they would have had if they had gone to a less competitive school.

Their classmates, who are there because of academic merit without the push of athletic ability, go on to much higher paying jobs on average.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Yeah, but. studies by a Princeton professor have shown that athletes gain little if anything from attending an Ivy league school. Their careers and lifetime earnings are pretty much what they would have had if they had gone to a less competitive school.

Their classmates, who are there because of academic merit without the push of athletic ability, go on to much higher paying jobs on average.

If athletes don't gain anything from an Ivy League education, then I doubt their non-athletic classmates would either. Could you link that study that you note? I don't know how or why you jumped to the assumption that all athletes aren't worthy of admission.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Was SU ever in the mix for her services?

I haven't heard that Hillsman was recruiting local players hard. He's actually targeted many international players and even added an additional staff member this season , Adeniyi Amadou, who specializes in overseas recruiting. It will be interesting because former assistant, Kelly Gibson who recruited Sykes, Peterson, Butler and the Day sisters etc left SU to join Rutgers in the same capacity after the 2015 season.

 

[Townie72]

If athletes don't gain anything from an Ivy League education, then I doubt their non-athletic classmates would either. Could you link that study that you note? I don't know how or why you jumped to the assumption that all athletes aren't worthy of admission.

You are right on one thing. Some Ivy league athletes would have been admitted even it they did not have a coach helping them by putting their thumbs on the scales at Admissions.

But in sports like football, basketball and lacrosse, these are the minority.

If Ivy athletes were as academically qualified as their classmates, the Ivy League would not have put all that energy into the Ivy League Academic Index (AI). It's a tiered system that has several levels below the average non-athlete admitted (based on SAT scores and class rank). (The AI is available on the Ivy League website)

Now, it ought to be intuitively obvious to you that a person with perfect SATs in the Top 1% of their graduating class is going to get more out of classes than kids with quite pedestrian SAT scores who have class ranks just above average.

While their brainiac classmates are burning the midnight oil and enjoining the professors in debate in class, those who were admitted in the bottom tiers of the AI are trying stay afloat academically. And because no one ever fails out of these schools anymore, its not a big problem.

Now I read that study a number of years ago with interest. At the time. I had two sons who were being recruited by Ivy League schools, so I talked to many people and read everything I could. I became an Academic Index (AI) expert.

Now you'll forgive me if I don't search through the web to find that study. You can believe me or not. I don't care.

But the truth of it has been borne out in my own experience. I was and remain closely connected to a local prep school in DC that has sent a bunch of athletes to Ivy League schools. Some of these kids were not the sharpest tools in the drawer.

While their Ivy classmates are at Harvard Business School or at Hopkins studying medicine, these guys are selling commercial real estate (or something similar like selling mortgages). Which is exactly what they would be doing if they had gone to Maryland. (Which is what the Princeton professor's study found.)

 

[81South]

Both Hair and Rauch are going to great schools whose womens programs have ranked just around 25 to 35 the past few seasons.

Penn, Hair's destination, has won the Ivy League title in 3 of the 4 past years. Penn lost in the first round of the NCAA's last year by 2 points. This was their 3rd straight NCAA appearance.

Rauch's choice, Michigan, came in 3rd in the Big 10 last year and were disappointed to be left out of the NCAA's after being ranked in the top 25 during the year. However they lost in the 1st round of the big 10 tournament just missing getting an NCAA bid, going to the NIT's which they actually won last year. Both Penn and Michigan are on the cusp just like SU was just 3 to 4 years ago and where they may return after the heavy graduation losses this year.

Many women's players opt for their best academic option because of the lack of money in the WNBA. A free education is still considered a great bonus and the best benefit for players in the womens game.

These two will do great but many had them pegged for much bigger hoop schools several years ago as they came on the scene. The 'big' offers never came. I am not knocking the kids...they are tremendous players and people. I have had the opportunity to watch them extensively on the aau circuit as my daughter is in the same program. There is a lot of great talent out there and getting the attention of the big boys is very hard. I am very happy for them and wish them nothing but the best.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

It's nice to hear from someone who actually has a clue on how the Ivy League works.

The big difference in the last several years is the change in how this aid is delivered. Instead of requiring student loans and work-study jobs, the Ivy League (almost embarrassed by the huge amount of money they had) now delivers all aid as a straight up grant.

They weren't embarrassed into it. Congress threatened to change their Not for Profit status if they didn't start giving money to students. A few years ago, Harvard was ranked by Newsweek as the best educational buy, because of all the money they give.

 

[Townie72]

They weren't embarrassed into it. Congress threatened to change their Not for Profit status if they didn't start given money to students. A few years ago, Harvard was ranked by Newsweek as the best educational buy, because of all the money they give.

All I remember was the change. Instead of a package of grant money, student loans and work-study jobs, they just made it all into a grant. At about that time there were questions being raised about the actual value if a very expensive Ivy degree to less well-prepared and less-academically-oriented students. I just put two and two together in my own mind.

The Ivy League Academic Index doesn't permit the school to bring total rockheads in. And there are specific numbers that are allowed in each of the "tiers" of the Index. But it does allow them to bring in quite average students. What they don't tell these parents is that their progeny will not be getting as much out of the experience as their better prepared and academically-oriented classmates.

I have always thought there was more dishonesty in recruiting at the DIII and Ivy League schools. In DI you know what you are getting. But there's a fair amount of "bait and switch" in the Ivy League and with schools like Williams and Amherst.

 

[Bayside44]

You are right on one thing. Some Ivy league athletes would have been admitted even it they did not have a coach helping them by putting their thumbs on the scales at Admissions.

But in sports like football, basketball and lacrosse, these are the minority.

If Ivy athletes were as academically qualified as their classmates, the Ivy League would not have put all that energy into the Ivy League Academic Index (AI). It's a tiered system that has several levels below the average non-athlete admitted (based on SAT scores and class rank). (The AI is available on the Ivy League website)

Now, it ought to be intuitively obvious to you that a person with perfect SATs in the Top 1% of their graduating class is going to get more out of classes than kids with quite pedestrian SAT scores who have class ranks just above average.

While their brainiac classmates are burning the midnight oil and enjoining the professors in debate in class, those who were admitted in the bottom tiers of the AI are trying stay afloat academically. And because no one ever fails out of these schools anymore, its not a big problem.

Now I read that study a number of years ago with interest. At the time. I had two sons who were being recruited by Ivy League schools, so I talked to many people and read everything I could. I became an Academic Index (AI) expert.

Now you'll forgive me if I don't search through the web to find that study. You can believe me or not. I don't care.

But the truth of it has been borne out in my own experience. I was and remain closely connected to a local prep school in DC that has sent a bunch of athletes to Ivy League schools. Some of these kids were not the sharpest tools in the drawer.

While their Ivy classmates are at Harvard Business School or at Hopkins studying medicine, these guys are selling commercial real estate (or something similar like selling mortgages). Which is exactly what they would be doing if they had gone to Maryland. (Which is what the Princeton professor's study found.)

Funny you say this. In my focus group of one I had a Harvard ballplayer work for my shop. Kid was a trainwreck - nice kid otherwise, is back in Philly selling commercial real estate now. Job got replaced out of market to a HS grad who did it better.

 

[midloviking]

Some of these kids were not the sharpest tools in the drawer.

While their Ivy classmates are at Harvard Business School or at Hopkins studying medicine, these guys are selling commercial real estate (or something similar like selling mortgages). Which is exactly what they would be doing if they had gone to Maryland. (Which is what the Princeton professor's study found.)

My neighbors kid graduated from Penn about 4 years ago. He was a recruited swimmer. He has turned into an excellent bartender.

 

[Townie72]

Funny you say this. In my focus group of one I had a Harvard ballplayer work for my shop. Kid was a trainwreck - nice kid otherwise, is back in Philly selling commercial real estate now. Job got replaced out of market to a HS grad who did it better.

Ties to my experience too.

I recently sat on a plane next to a guy who had played football at Harvard who had just graduated.

He had a job working for the US Border Control and was on his way to El Paso.

Interesting work, I'm sure. But not exactly the career path his fellow classmates are pursuing.

 

[SUFan44]

As with any school, you'll have varying degrees of success with graduates. During my time at the Ivy League school, working directly with student-athletes, I've known kids go on to medical school, law school and many who have been successful on Wall Street.

To pick and choose is unfair. Even during the non-AI years where it was more difficult to get kids into school, there were success stories and some stories that were similar to the two mentioned above.

 

[Townie72]

As with any school, you'll have varying degrees of success with graduates. During my time at the Ivy League school, working directly with student-athletes, I've known kids go on to medical school, law school and many who have been successful on Wall Street.

To pick and choose is unfair. Even during the non-AI years where it was more difficult to get kids into school, there were success stories and some not-so-success stories.

I'm sure there are. But a few points you may agree or disagree with.

The assumption that less-qualified athletes are going to get the same educational benefit from an Ivy League school as those who got in without the Athletic "hook" is not warranted. There will be some exceptions to this, but it's generally true.

Not all Ivy athletes are in the bottom tiers of the AI. That goes without saying if you understand the AI, and it sounds like you do. It's a distribution around the average of all students and it varies from school to school (Because H-Y-P kids have higher scores on average than do kids at Penn or Brown)

And on Wall Street ... For whatever reason there are a lot of ex-Lacrosse alums in jobs on Wall Street. I know two real well. One went to Georgetown and one went to Duke as recruited athletes. They are both on Wall Street and are doing well.

It's amazing because both of them are "As dumb as a box of rocks". I'm talking "un-timed SAT, learning disabled dumb" They were the butts of jokes in high school because they were so academically challenged.

So, I'm thinking that maybe there are a lot of jobs on Wall Street where brains ain't exactly a heavy requirement. Now these guys do have the credential, the Georgetown or Duke diploma. And they are affable and they do have some cunning and survival skills. But I wouldn't send either one of them to the grocery store with a detailed shopping list unless they took their cellphone with them so that we could communicate on just which box of rice they ought to buy.

 

[SUFan44]

I'm sure there are. But a few points you may agree or disagree with.

The assumption that less-qualified athletes are going to get the same educational benefit from an Ivy League school as those who got in without the Athletic "hook" is not warranted. There will be some exceptions to this, but it's generally true.

Not all Ivy athletes are in the bottom tiers of the AI. That goes without saying if you understand the AI, and it sounds like you do. It's a distribution around the average of all students and it varies from school to school (Because H-Y-P kids have higher scores on average than do kids at Penn or Brown)

And on Wall Street ... For whatever reason there are a lot of ex-Lacrosse alums in jobs on Wall Street. I know two real well. One went to Georgetown and one went to Duke as recruited athletes. They are both on Wall Street and are doing well.

It's amazing because both of them are "As dumb as a box of rocks". I'm talking "un-timed SAT, learning disabled dumb" They were the butts of jokes in high school because they were so academically challenged.

So, I'm thinking that maybe there are a lot of jobs on Wall Street where brains ain't exactly a heavy requirement. Now these guys do have the credential, the Georgetown or Duke diploma. And they are affable and they do have some cunning and survival skills. But I wouldn't send either one of them to the grocery store with a detailed shopping list unless they took their cellphone with them so that we could communicate on just which box of rice they ought to buy.

We are definitely on the same page. One thing that I will quibble a little with you about is that the majority of kids at a Harvard or Yale that are accepted through athletic recruitment do go to class and do value the education. It's nearly impossible to get into Harvard or Princeton unless you have a 4.5 GPA, 1500+ SAT (old variety) and have a connection to the school. And even then, you have a 50-50 shot.

The cross-section of student-athletes, in my opinion, isn't much different than the cross section of guys and gals admitted through legacies (and that world exists, too). Or based on staff tuition remission. The rest of the student body? I am sure there are cases of burnout, partying & anxiety that create issues with them, just like the rest of college attendees. That's life.

Not saying that, on average, certain sports such as football or basketball don't have lesser GPA's or lesser affinities to school. But I think that's true at any school.

And yes, I agree with you that Wall Street is a different world. If you have the look, speak relatively well and enjoy a good time, I have no doubt you can be successful there. Quite amazing, actually.

 

[Bayside44]

I'm sure there are. But a few points you may agree or disagree with.

The assumption that less-qualified athletes are going to get the same educational benefit from an Ivy League school as those who got in without the Athletic "hook" is not warranted. There will be some exceptions to this, but it's generally true.

Not all Ivy athletes are in the bottom tiers of the AI. That goes without saying if you understand the AI, and it sounds like you do. It's a distribution around the average of all students and it varies from school to school (Because H-Y-P kids have higher scores on average than do kids at Penn or Brown)

And on Wall Street ... For whatever reason there are a lot of ex-Lacrosse alums in jobs on Wall Street. I know two real well. One went to Georgetown and one went to Duke as recruited athletes. They are both on Wall Street and are doing well.

It's amazing because both of them are "As dumb as a box of rocks". I'm talking "un-timed SAT, learning disabled dumb" They were the butts of jokes in high school because they were so academically challenged.

So, I'm thinking that maybe there are a lot of jobs on Wall Street where brains ain't exactly a heavy requirement. Now these guys do have the credential, the Georgetown or Duke diploma. And they are affable and they do have some cunning and survival skills. But I wouldn't send either one of them to the grocery store with a detailed shopping list unless they took their cellphone with them so that we could communicate on just which box of rice they ought to buy.

The Wall Street athlete thing had the theory kicking around that because young guys were strong, strong willed, aggressive, willing to work super hard and take chances (and entertain clients) that it fit the broker mold.

Like with sports GMs though the analytics guys are taking over.

 

[Townie72]

We are definitely on the same page. One thing that I will quibble a little with you about is that the majority of kids at a Harvard or Yale that are accepted through athletic recruitment do go to class and do value the education. It's nearly impossible to get into Harvard or Princeton unless you have a 4.5 GPA, 1500+ SAT (old variety) and have a connection to the school. And even then, you have a 50-50 shot.

The cross-section of student-athletes, in my opinion, isn't much different than the cross section of guys and gals admitted through legacies (and that world exists, too). Or based on staff tuition remission. The rest of the student body? I am sure there are cases of burnout, partying & anxiety that create issues with them, just like the rest of college attendees. That's life.

Not saying that, on average, certain sports such as football or basketball don't have lesser GPA's or lesser affinities to school. But I think that's true at any school.

And yes, I agree with you that Wall Street is a different world. If you have the look, speak relatively well and enjoy a good time, I have no doubt you can be successful there. Quite amazing, actually.

From the Harvard Crimson describing the Academic Index:

"The Ivy League has set a minimum AI of 176 for any student-athlete offered admission, corresponding roughly to a 3.0 GPA and an 1140 out of 1600 on the SAT I."

How's that square with your ideas about the difficulty of Ivy League admissions for athletes?

I don't want to provide too much personal information, but I know quite a bit about it because two of my sons were recruited by Ivy League schools. When the cards, letter and phone calls started I thought there must be some mistake. They were good students at a very good school. But they were not top students.

But the coaches patiently took me all the way through it assuring me that we were in the right ranges. Then I talked to people in the Ivy League office to verify what I had been told. (not that any coaches would ever shade the truth.)

Then I watched kids who I know also get recruited and accepted by Ivies.

One of my favorite stories is about a lacrosse player, who was a nice kid, but definitely not smart. He was recruited HARD by Princeton and he went there on an official visit.

His parents have sooooo much money that they weren't all that interested in the cache of a Princeton degree. And everybody knew the kid was going into the father's construction-related business anyway.

When he got back from his official visit, His report was, "I didn't like those people. Too full of themselves." He wasn't interested. This made the Ivy League obsessed group among the parents dizzy.

 

[Townie72]

The Wall Street athlete thing had the theory kicking around that because young guys were strong, strong willed, aggressive, willing to work super hard and take chances (and entertain clients) that it fit the broker mold.

Like with sports GMs though the analytics guys are taking over.

You may be right. But these kids are still there making money How much, I don't know.

But I'll guarantee you they aren't any smarter.

If the Analytics crowd keeps it up with the On Base percentage stuff, that admittedly works, they are going to kill the game. They have to do something to speed the game up and get rid of these 12, 13, 14 pitch at bats with 12,13, 14 re-adjustments of the velcro on the batting gloves.

I've started to toggle between games or between the game and another show. Last night I watched most of the O's game but also a lot of "Hippos vs. Crocs" on Nat Geo. "Hippos vs. Crocs" was more exciting. (I was rooting for the Hippos and for at least some of the Wildebeast getting across the river.)