Michigan-Michigan State Postgame Festivities...

[tep624]

Well, you, in apparent absolution, stated the instigator is not a victim. You couldn't be more inaccurate.

Fine if we're going to go by legal definitions then yes he's a victim, but he's not an innocent victim. Is that better?

Just because we don't define poor personal behavior as illegal, it doesn't make it right.

 

[tep624]

If someone flips me off in traffic and starts tailgating me, I don’t get to mollywhop them with a blunt object.. even though they started it. And if I did, no one is going to care about who started it.

Well tailgating is illegal and they could be cited for that. And if they approached your vehicle while traffic was stopped and you responded by hitting them with something you could argue self defense if you were in fear of your life. So bad example.

But point is that we tolerate all sorts of bad behavior in society because it's not "illegal" so general opinion is that people are entitled to act that way, and then when someone crosses the line into something "illegal" as a result the fault is all on them. I wholeheartedly disagree with that.

 

[orangecuse]

Fine if we're going to go by legal definitions then yes he's a victim, but he's not an innocent victim. Is that better?

Just because we don't define poor personal behavior as illegal, it doesn't make it right.

Better for who? You? Now, I may agree that he may have acted somewhat dickish (or your A-hole designation), but he is still a victim. You moving the goal posts, citing bad behavior, doesn't make it right, etc. is off the main point.

Again, the extenuating circumstances, which you refer to as not being an "innocent victim" are nominal at best, and far less than the aggravating factors.

 

[David332]

Well tailgating is illegal and they could be cited for that. And if they approached your vehicle while traffic was stopped and you responded by hitting them with something you could argue self defense if you were in fear of your life. So bad example.

It’s actually a perfect example, a violation (not even a misdemeanor) verses a felony. Self defense works on a basis of least amount of force necessary according to the force continuim and according to a reasonable man’s standard. You don’t get to escalate it while defending yourself.

Further self defense legally is typically defined as defense of one’s self or defense of another. Disrespect is not life threatening.

 

[donniesyracuse]

Tunnels don't bludgeon people, degenerates do.

We need more good guys with tunnels.

 

[All4SU]

Was he a victim of an assault? Of course. Did he in some degree provoke the attack? Yes. If I’m the judge, I take that into consideration at sentencing.

If you’re walking around downtown at night waving $100 bills in the air, you increase the likelihood of getting robbed. You’re still a victim. You’re just not a very bright victim.

 

[tep624]

It’s actually a perfect example, a violation (not even a misdemeanor) verses a felony. Self defense works on a basis of least amount of force necessary according to the force continuim and according to a reasonable man’s standard. You don’t get to escalate it while defending yourself.

Further self defense legally is typically defined as defense of one’s self or defense of another. Disrespect is not life threatening.

It's a bad example because in your example, the person tailgating you is violating traffic code by doing that, and if they're doing that in a threatening way (along with the flipping off etc), you could argue that they are committing assault before you ever laid a hand on them. You're still going to be at fault for your actions more than likely in response but it's pretty obvious they could and should be held accountable legally for theirs as well.

The Michigan player didn't do anything illegal. The Mich St. players in response did. Doesn't mean he didn't act poorly and shouldn't be held accountable (suspension etc).

 

[JustPherU]

There's been nearly 500+ games at that stadium without incident. Tunnels don't bludgeon people, degenerates do.

Plenty of incidents in that tunnel

 

[David332]

It's a bad example because in your example, the person tailgating you is violating traffic code by doing that, and if they're doing that in a threatening way (along with the flipping off etc), you could argue that they are committing assault before you ever laid a hand on them. You're still going to be at fault for your actions more than likely in response but it's pretty obvious they could and should be held accountable legally for theirs as well.

The Michigan player didn't do anything illegal. The Mich St. players in response did. Doesn't mean he didn't act poorly and should be held accountable (suspension etc).

No, tailgating cannot be considered assault. No shade but you’re not very familiar with penal codes. In NYS for example you could literally strike me in the face and it wouldn’t be assault in the third if you didn’t leave a mark, it would be harassment.

 

[orangencpolice]

this shouldn't be that hard, if there is one tunnel(which is there is at the Big House), you clear the visiting team out first while the home team stays on the field, security makes sure there aren't any visiting players or staff still in the tunnel then you let the home team go through the tunnel. takes a few minutes, big deal.

Problem Solved.

 

[tep624]

No, tailgating cannot be considered assault. No shade but you’re not very familiar with penal codes. In NYS for example you could literally strike me in the face and it wouldn’t be assault in the third if you didn’t leave a mark, it would be harassment.

If that’s accurate that you can literally strike someone and it not be considered assault, that’s pretty nuts.

I always thought that words and threatening behaviors can be considered assault if the potential victim was in fear of harm.

 

[David332]

If that’s accurate that you can literally strike someone and it not be considered assault, that’s pretty nuts.

I always thought that words and threatening behaviors can be considered assault if the potential victim was in fear of harm.

I hear you. I don’t disagree with you in principal but rather just how things actually are.

 

[rrlbees]

IMO the Michigan kid being a jerk should be disciplined by the school. Game suspension or whatever. But the Michigan St kid should be charged with assault.

 

[690West]

IMO the Michigan kid being a jerk should be disciplined by the school. Game suspension or whatever. But the Michigan St kid should be charged with assault.

Exactly. Two things can be accurate at the same time. And the more I read and watch, the more I believe there are 2 facts:

1. The Michigan kid is a punk who learned a valuable lesson.
2. The MSU player should be charged with assault.

 

[hoopsupstate]

Exactly. Two things can be accurate at the same time. And the more I read and watch, the more I believe there are 2 facts:

1. The Michigan kid is a punk who learned a valuable lesson.
2. The MSU player should be charged with assault.

The Michigan player is filing charges.

 

[qdawgg]

Was he a victim of an assault? Of course. Did he in some degree provoke the attack? Yes. If I’m the judge, I take that into consideration at sentencing.

If you’re walking around downtown at night waving $100 bills in the air, you increase the likelihood of getting robbed. You’re still a victim. You’re just not a very bright victim.

So if you walk around downtown flashing $100 bills and get jumped. The judge is going to be more lenient with the attackers because the victim was careless?

 

[qdawgg]

If that’s accurate that you can literally strike someone and it not be considered assault, that’s pretty nuts.

I always thought that words and threatening behaviors can be considered assault if the potential victim was in fear of harm.

Like in Florida where the guy shot and killed the other guy in the movie theater because he was afraid for his life with the handful of popcorn thrown at him?

 

[qdawgg]

Let’s remember there’s two victims here. One potentially acted like an idiot and got jumped for it. The other was hit multiple times with a helmet, I’m not sure what charge he will receive on Twitter for being struck with a helmet.

 

[tep624]

Like in Florida where the guy shot and killed the other guy in the movie theater because he was afraid for his life with the handful of popcorn thrown at him?

Well if we want to grasp at ridiculous examples no.

I was thinking more along the lines of an aggressive person screaming obscenities and charging another person. No physical assault has occurred, yet, but in that case you’re literally arguing the target should wait to be physically assaulted before acting. The law tends to favor the proposed target in the cases I’ve seen in the media or read about. Fear is a sliding scale and it’s subjective as to what one person may deem as life threatening to the next.

 

[qdawgg]

Well if we want to grasp at ridiculous examples no.

I was thinking more along the lines of an aggressive person screaming obscenities and charging another person. No physical assault has occurred, yet, but in that case you’re literally arguing the target should wait to be physically assaulted before acting. The law tends to favor the proposed target in the cases I’ve seen in the media or read about. Fear is a sliding scale and it’s subjective as to what one person may deem as life threatening to the next.

So if popcorn gets thrown at you you shoot the person dead just to be safe from a possible attack that may or may not come?

I’m not sure how an actual event is ridiculous to discuss since it happened in a state that’s legislated this to be legal. The shooter was acquitted as well.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Was he a victim of an assault? Of course. Did he in some degree provoke the attack? Yes. If I’m the judge, I take that into consideration at sentencing.

If you’re walking around downtown at night waving $100 bills in the air, you increase the likelihood of getting robbed. You’re still a victim. You’re just not a very bright victim.

You are blaming the victim. Walking around waving money is not illegal. Talking smack is not illegal. Bad actors are bad actors, and people should stop excusing them.

 

[David332]

You are blaming the victim. Walking around waving money is not illegal. Talking smack is not illegal. Bad actors are bad actors, and people should stop excusing them.

Hey man, leave Pauly Shore out of this.

 

[Rage4CUSE]

Fine if we're going to go by legal definitions then yes he's a victim, but he's not an innocent victim. Is that better?

Just because we don't define poor personal behavior as illegal, it doesn't make it right.

What if during the game, those Michigan St players were talking smack to same guys who did it in the tunnel after the game?

 

[Cusefan95]

i think one of the things that should come out of this is that schools with one tunnel need to come up with a better strategy for getting players on and off the field. This isn’t a new thing - the brawl before the ‘88 Notre Dame - Miami game is legendary and you can’t tell the story of that game without it - but our tolerance for it today is much lower. So yes, we have evolved as a society - the stuff we tolerated 30 years ago doesn’t fly today. We need to figure out ways to eliminate the issues we’re no longer willing to tolerate.

Having two teams going into the same tunnel at the same time is incredibly stupid. MSU should be embarrassed about what their players did; Michigan is, in my opinion, obligated to come up with better game day policies and procedures going forward as well.

 

[RF2044]

i think one of the things that should come out of this is that schools with one tunnel need to come up with a better strategy for getting players on and off the field. This isn’t a new thing - the brawl before the ‘88 Notre Dame - Miami game is legendary and you can’t tell the story of that game without it - but our tolerance for it today is much lower. So yes, we have evolved as a society - the stuff we tolerated 30 years ago doesn’t fly today. We need to figure out ways to eliminate the issues we’re no longer willing to tolerate.

Having two teams going into the same tunnel at the same time is incredibly stupid. MSU should be embarrassed about what their players did; Michigan is, in my opinion, obligated to come up with better game day policies and procedures going forward as well.

Why has the tunnel not been a tunnel for 100 years, and now suddenly it is two weeks in a row?