Mike Messere

[sholokov2]

I think something else changed over the years. The competition. Everyone else got better. It's probably easier to buy in when you're racking up state championships. Similarly, it's probably easier for a coach to disregard a small lack of buy-in when the team is rolling. I don't really know the situation. I think many of the comments here supporting Messere are very convincing and while some might think that Messere showed a lack of class, it's very possible that Messere doesn't care and he thinks that what he said was just another part of the learning process for the players.

Can anyone give a little insight into this? Was the buy-in that he didn't get from the players having to do with the way they play, the work they put in during practice, the work they put in outside of practice???

Ohmi- I have no insight, but I can dredge up many many examples of older coaches who have been successful for many years into their dotage and ended up bitter old men who seem gobsmacked by young men who would not follow their militaristic regimens and lost lots of games. Woody Hayes is my favorite. He grabbed his player by the mask at the end of a particularly galling loss and smacked him upside the head. He was gone the next year. Casey Stengel asked in his inchoate senility, " can anybody here play this game", a reference to his NY Mets. I watched Messere coach for years. Marveled at his brilliance. But coaches have a shelf life like all authoritarians. Particularly coaches who expect a lot from their players. Teams which lose a few games break down and wonder about investing in a set rules that seem tolerable when the team wins but not so much during losing seasons. I respect the idea that our culture has changed over the years. but I have a feeling that Messere's retirement was a function of the natural order.

 

[outoftownie]

This thread is interesting in that it happens to every coach who stays into their later years. It's a fear I have with JB all the time. There are not many examples of coaches in their golden years having golden ends to their careers.
NOt close to the situation at all but Messere in a way contributed to the one sport concept as I think it was at WG where once lacrosse started you had to stop all winter sports - playoffs or no. Probably only impacted hockey but still forced a choice.

Not to continue the hammer on this one, but that is false. During my time at WGHS the hockey team went to state final and then basketball team did the same. Lacrosse players on both of those teams were not allowed to tryout during the official tryout period. They were given separate tryouts once their winter sports season was over. That said, if you were playing non-school, Junior hockey and wanted to miss tryouts, tough luck. If you weren’t at tryouts you didn’t make the team.

I am not going to comment on any other the other stuff swirling around Coach Messere. I am too biased in his, and Coach Deegan’s, favor. If it wasn’t for the two of them, I wouldn’t be the man I am today.

 

[Zepharus]

I'm a millennial and I say the same thing about the Baby Boomers. They ruined everything.

you're right about the Boomers ruining things...but these millenials man...

People take youth sports way too seriously today. The baby boomers ratcheted up the madness with millennials and it has bled over to scholastic athletics.

It’ll be difficult to break the cycle of ridiculous sports driven trends (travel clubs, redshirting Kindergarteners, etc) that Gen Xers are now facing with their kids.

I have young children (all under 5) and my wife and I are already turned off by the stuff our older nieces and nephews have experienced through youth sports.

I would love for my kids to have the same experience I had playjng high school sports but the sacrifices our family will have to make for that opportunity make me question the value of it.

Sorry for the off topic rant - I believe the toxic youth sports culture is a big component to why Messere couldn’t get this generation to buy in. His proven ability to get 30 plus years of other kids to listen and accept his coaching is proof to me he knew how to communicate effectively.

This is partially true, but also a somewhat incorrect assumption. Full disclosure, Im a 46 yo Gen Xer that I feel, is the last generation to truly attempts to excel through had work and a commitment to excellence. Gen Yer and Millennials simply DO NOT have this drive. I have witnessed it time and time again. I have worked in the service industry since 94' and I have a 14 yo Son that plays Travel Lacrosse for orange Crush. This leaves me uniquely qualified to comment on this very topic.

I will tell you that Parents are part of the problem because they, the sports parents of lacrosse anyway, are a group of overachievers that want and demand excellence from their children but simply cannot get it at the level they feel is attainable. This drives them to push and push. They complain about the kids, they complain about the coaching and almost all are armchair quarterbacks. Yes, some of these parents are living vicariously through their kids, but some simply want their children to give 100% effort, which rarely happens. The simple fact is that the vast majority of kids simply do not work as hard as Boomers and Gen xers think they should. We as parents have facilitated some of this by making our children the beneficiary of things we lacked as kids. But some is herd mentality, learned behavior from what they see and feel online.

My parents gave me tough love and I often had to do things for myself. It drove me to become self sufficient and my father had a work ethic like no other. I learned these things. The mistakes i've made were to make too many things readily available for my kids that they didn't have to work hard for... rides to friends, money, jobs, material possessions. In my mind I was providing a better life, when in fact I was handicapping them. I've been course corrected for many years but some of the impact still lingers. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Millennials have been raised that that they want to work hard on their terms and only enough to get to where they want to be that day.. not long term, not all in.

At their core the parents want this excellence that they learned from their parents and the kids are only willing to give it in chunks. They arent willing to listen to authoritarian rules and stuff they find oppressive. . this is a youtube generation of kids that make money playing games and kids watching them play them! Doing crazy stuff on video and getting views and hits. They can sit at home and act silly and make more than you and I. Why work hard ? why kill yourself? Why listen to this "old" curmudgeon who just wants to work and not have fun. This is the mentality of kids today and Millenials in general.

There are , of course, always exceptions to the rule but this is how they are in work and in play. Take it from a parent on the inside.

 

[Cusefan0307]

you're right about the Boomers ruining things...but these millenials man...



This is partially true, but also a somewhat incorrect assumption. Full disclosure, Im a 46 yo Gen Xer that I feel, is the last generation to truly attempts to excel through had work and a commitment to excellence. Gen Yer and Millennials simply DO NOT have this drive. I have witnessed it time and time again. I have worked in the service industry since 94' and I have a 14 yo Son that plays Travel Lacrosse for orange Crush. This leaves me uniquely qualified to comment on this very topic.

I will tell you that Parents are part of the problem because they, the sports parents of lacrosse anyway, are a group of overachievers that want and demand excellence from their children but simply cannot get it at the level they feel is attainable. This drives them to push and push. They complain about the kids, they complain about the coaching and almost all are armchair quarterbacks. Yes, some of these parents are living vicariously through their kids, but some simply want their children to give 100% effort, which rarely happens. The simple fact is that the vast majority of kids simply do not work as hard as Boomers and Gen xers think they should. We as parents have facilitated some of this by making our children the beneficiary of things we lacked as kids. But some is herd mentality, learned behavior from what they see and feel online.

My parents gave me tough love and I often had to do things for myself. It drove me to become self sufficient and my father had a work ethic like no other. I learned these things. The mistakes i've made were to make too many things readily available for my kids that they didn't have to work hard for... rides to friends, money, jobs, material possessions. In my mind I was providing a better life, when in fact I was handicapping them. I've been course corrected for many years but some of the impact still lingers. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Millennials have been raised that that they want to work hard on their terms and only enough to get to where they want to be that day.. not long term, not all in.

At their core the parents want this excellence that they learned from their parents and the kids are only willing to give it in chunks. They arent willing to listen to authoritarian rules and stuff they find oppressive. . this is a youtube generation of kids that make money playing games and kids watching them play them! Doing crazy stuff on video and getting views and hits. They can sit at home and act silly and make more than you and I. Why work hard ? why kill yourself? Why listen to this "old" curmudgeon who just wants to work and not have fun. This is the mentality of kids today and Millenials in general.

There are , of course, always exceptions to the rule but this is how they are in work and in play. Take it from a parent on the inside.

Yeah pretty sure Xers and boomers have lived the same great values as the greatest generation. That’s why the country keeps getting better and better. Am I right?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

you're right about the Boomers ruining things...but these millenials man...



This is partially true, but also a somewhat incorrect assumption. Full disclosure, Im a 46 yo Gen Xer that I feel, is the last generation to truly attempts to excel through had work and a commitment to excellence. Gen Yer and Millennials simply DO NOT have this drive. I have witnessed it time and time again. I have worked in the service industry since 94' and I have a 14 yo Son that plays Travel Lacrosse for orange Crush. This leaves me uniquely qualified to comment on this very topic.

I will tell you that Parents are part of the problem because they, the sports parents of lacrosse anyway, are a group of overachievers that want and demand excellence from their children but simply cannot get it at the level they feel is attainable. This drives them to push and push. They complain about the kids, they complain about the coaching and almost all are armchair quarterbacks. Yes, some of these parents are living vicariously through their kids, but some simply want their children to give 100% effort, which rarely happens. The simple fact is that the vast majority of kids simply do not work as hard as Boomers and Gen xers think they should. We as parents have facilitated some of this by making our children the beneficiary of things we lacked as kids. But some is herd mentality, learned behavior from what they see and feel online.

My parents gave me tough love and I often had to do things for myself. It drove me to become self sufficient and my father had a work ethic like no other. I learned these things. The mistakes i've made were to make too many things readily available for my kids that they didn't have to work hard for... rides to friends, money, jobs, material possessions. In my mind I was providing a better life, when in fact I was handicapping them. I've been course corrected for many years but some of the impact still lingers. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Millennials have been raised that that they want to work hard on their terms and only enough to get to where they want to be that day.. not long term, not all in.

At their core the parents want this excellence that they learned from their parents and the kids are only willing to give it in chunks. They arent willing to listen to authoritarian rules and stuff they find oppressive. . this is a youtube generation of kids that make money playing games and kids watching them play them! Doing crazy stuff on video and getting views and hits. They can sit at home and act silly and make more than you and I. Why work hard ? why kill yourself? Why listen to this "old" curmudgeon who just wants to work and not have fun. This is the mentality of kids today and Millenials in general.

There are , of course, always exceptions to the rule but this is how they are in work and in play. Take it from a parent on the inside.

I've hired and developed some 60+ millennials professionally in my career and I disagree with a lot of your take.

 

[ForCuseSake]

you're right about the Boomers ruining things...but these millenials man...



This is partially true, but also a somewhat incorrect assumption. Full disclosure, Im a 46 yo Gen Xer that I feel, is the last generation to truly attempts to excel through had work and a commitment to excellence. Gen Yer and Millennials simply DO NOT have this drive. I have witnessed it time and time again. I have worked in the service industry since 94' and I have a 14 yo Son that plays Travel Lacrosse for orange Crush. This leaves me uniquely qualified to comment on this very topic.

I will tell you that Parents are part of the problem because they, the sports parents of lacrosse anyway, are a group of overachievers that want and demand excellence from their children but simply cannot get it at the level they feel is attainable. This drives them to push and push. They complain about the kids, they complain about the coaching and almost all are armchair quarterbacks. Yes, some of these parents are living vicariously through their kids, but some simply want their children to give 100% effort, which rarely happens. The simple fact is that the vast majority of kids simply do not work as hard as Boomers and Gen xers think they should. We as parents have facilitated some of this by making our children the beneficiary of things we lacked as kids. But some is herd mentality, learned behavior from what they see and feel online.

My parents gave me tough love and I often had to do things for myself. It drove me to become self sufficient and my father had a work ethic like no other. I learned these things. The mistakes i've made were to make too many things readily available for my kids that they didn't have to work hard for... rides to friends, money, jobs, material possessions. In my mind I was providing a better life, when in fact I was handicapping them. I've been course corrected for many years but some of the impact still lingers. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Millennials have been raised that that they want to work hard on their terms and only enough to get to where they want to be that day.. not long term, not all in.

At their core the parents want this excellence that they learned from their parents and the kids are only willing to give it in chunks. They arent willing to listen to authoritarian rules and stuff they find oppressive. . this is a youtube generation of kids that make money playing games and kids watching them play them! Doing crazy stuff on video and getting views and hits. They can sit at home and act silly and make more than you and I. Why work hard ? why kill yourself? Why listen to this "old" curmudgeon who just wants to work and not have fun. This is the mentality of kids today and Millenials in general.

There are , of course, always exceptions to the rule but this is how they are in work and in play. Take it from a parent on the inside.

I understand and agree with a lot of your post. I have a brother a few years older than you (with a son a few years older than yours) and have had many similar experiences as a volunteer assistant coach for both town and travel lacrosse teams in his age group.

I also think too many parents (starting with the Boomers and continued by most Gen Xers) try to use youth sports as the vehicle to show tough love and teach work ethic because they fail to do it through other means.

They push-parent their kid and grind them down until the kid is either burned out or playing solely for their expectation. This is what I meant by the culture being toxic. And it started with the Boomers treating Millenials like miniature college resumes rather than children to be taught life skills like work ethic.

This has completely corrupted the entire youth sports experience. Youth sports should be fun and teach kids about teamwork, sportsmanship, fitness, etc.

I’m not a “trophy for all” type. It’s good to have kids lose and teach them how to win and lose with humility and dignity.

I think the whole system is off the rails and needs to swing back to the “sports should be fun first” end of the spectrum. /End rant

Edit - I default to the Mr Miyagi philosophy,”no such thing as bad student only bad teacher”.

A lot of parenting is luck but youth sports shines a bright light on adults who have warped their kids by either coddling them or pushing them too hard. It’s the toughest balance to achieve as I’m in the midst of it with my young kids.

 

[Cheriehoop]

The number of children in families has steadily decreased. When people had large families, fathers, mothers were too busy to make their children's athletic endeavors a major part of their own lives. Older siblings, neighborhood playground friends usually instilled the competitive spirit, example and motivation for younger siblings - parents not so much. Kids were more self motivated out of necessity. Not too may travel teams made sense in the eras when a family was fortunate to have just one car. The money and publicity wasn't the motivation for parents nor players back then - the chance to just play a sport was the reward in it's self.

The decline of the large US family, in charts

 

[PhatOrange]

The boomers are not the ones who ratchet up youth sports. The GenX-ers created the monster and the 30 somethings have taken it to another level.

There were barely youth sports when the Boomers were raising their kids. It's the Boomer's kids who started the ball rolling.

 

[PhatOrange]

you're right about the Boomers ruining things...but these millenials man...



This is partially true, but also a somewhat incorrect assumption. Full disclosure, Im a 46 yo Gen Xer that I feel, is the last generation to truly attempts to excel through had work and a commitment to excellence. Gen Yer and Millennials simply DO NOT have this drive. I have witnessed it time and time again. I have worked in the service industry since 94' and I have a 14 yo Son that plays Travel Lacrosse for orange Crush. This leaves me uniquely qualified to comment on this very topic.

I will tell you that Parents are part of the problem because they, the sports parents of lacrosse anyway, are a group of overachievers that want and demand excellence from their children but simply cannot get it at the level they feel is attainable. This drives them to push and push. They complain about the kids, they complain about the coaching and almost all are armchair quarterbacks. Yes, some of these parents are living vicariously through their kids, but some simply want their children to give 100% effort, which rarely happens. The simple fact is that the vast majority of kids simply do not work as hard as Boomers and Gen xers think they should. We as parents have facilitated some of this by making our children the beneficiary of things we lacked as kids. But some is herd mentality, learned behavior from what they see and feel online.

My parents gave me tough love and I often had to do things for myself. It drove me to become self sufficient and my father had a work ethic like no other. I learned these things. The mistakes i've made were to make too many things readily available for my kids that they didn't have to work hard for... rides to friends, money, jobs, material possessions. In my mind I was providing a better life, when in fact I was handicapping them. I've been course corrected for many years but some of the impact still lingers. THIS IS THE PROBLEM. Millennials have been raised that that they want to work hard on their terms and only enough to get to where they want to be that day.. not long term, not all in.

At their core the parents want this excellence that they learned from their parents and the kids are only willing to give it in chunks. They arent willing to listen to authoritarian rules and stuff they find oppressive. . this is a youtube generation of kids that make money playing games and kids watching them play them! Doing crazy stuff on video and getting views and hits. They can sit at home and act silly and make more than you and I. Why work hard ? why kill yourself? Why listen to this "old" curmudgeon who just wants to work and not have fun. This is the mentality of kids today and Millenials in general.

There are , of course, always exceptions to the rule but this is how they are in work and in play. Take it from a parent on the inside.

I agree 110%

 

[laxsummit]

Sterotyping never fits all but this generation including my older children are creations of the times and environment they live and were raised in. We had our strengths and faults as do they. Many kids today have a work ethic more similar to Western European norms than my generation and there are some merits to that . Many are more sensitive which we perceive as a weakness but many are also more emphatheic than my generation which is a positive. Every generation changes as they go through their stages of life when realities mix in with idealisms.

 

[Cusester]

Im a professional who has enough sense not to say something akin to what I quoted in post 22.

And apparently the kids he coaches are too, as they were much classier in their remarks.

Having a source inside the team I can confidently tell you that some of the players were not nearly as "classy" when speaking directly to the staff. There was a full rebellion going on with some of the team as they knew it was Mike and Bob's last year.

 

[Zepharus]

Having a source inside the team I can confidently tell you that some of the players were not nearly as "classy" when speaking directly to the staff. There was a full rebellion going on with some of the team as they knew it was Mike and Bob's last year.

I heard exactly the same. Whether you agree with the kids or the Coach, its pretty clear there was a lack of respect from the players. I dont give a rats ass what they "felt" just look at that mans record of success when his kids bought into the system and went all in. Lacrosse is a sport in which talent and skill set can be pretty similar among schools and the defining factor is COACHING and structure. You see it on the Summer travel circuit all the time. Evenly match teams size and talent wise and the all year club teams that are coached by the fanatical dude yelling and screaming win 90% of the time over the the teams with lesser coaching and structure that dont play together as often.

agree or disagree with the man. The mans past dictated respect and commitment. Those kids were wrong imho. Sadly including the Lemoyne coaches kids as well... which is stunning.

 

[Whitey23]

Michael Greenlar | mgreenlar@syracuse.com
Coach of the Year: Mike Messere (West Genesee)
Years coaching: 43

Summarize this season: We played a strong schedule. We lost two games in the regular season to two good teams. Came on strong in postseason play and lost to a very good Ward Melville team in the state final.

How do you fire up your team before each game? I discuss the points of emphasis to be able to defeat our opponent. Sometimes a little rah-rah but not often. Just business.

What one thing would you have done differently this season if you could do it over again? Change personnel.

Who's your favorite coach of all time? My father, because he did not try to be my coach. Instead, he taught me values and principles to guide me.

Meet the 2018 All-CNY boys lacrosse team

 

[Orangeman]

Nothing to see here...definitely no difference between this generation of players AND parents...

Longtime lax coach McNulty steps down over potential parental interference

 

[Roger N]

This thread is interesting in that it happens to every coach who stays into their later years. It's a fear I have with JB all the time. There are not many examples of coaches in their golden years having golden ends to their careers.
NOt close to the situation at all but Messere in a way contributed to the one sport concept as I think it was at WG where once lacrosse started you had to stop all winter sports - playoffs or no. Probably only impacted hockey but still forced a choice.

Not true. Mike wanted kids to play three sports. However, if they didn't play football or soccer he wanted them worlking out with him. He didn't want kids to be idle.

 

[607FBL]

Parents are the worst thing about HS sports and more and more older coaches are becoming fed up with them. Look at the coaches Section 3 lost this year alone. Messere, Ventiquattro, Riese. I don't personally know them so I'm not going to sit here and say parents are the only reason why they left but all three have won state championships and still have to deal with them. But parents, you're right, these coaches have no clue what they're doing and your son should be playing the whole game with the ball in his stick. Maybe some day we will return to parents telling their kids that they need to work harder to get better so the coach has no choice but to play them instead of going to the school boards and trying to get the coaches removed.

 

[HOFCeluck]

This is partially true, but also a somewhat incorrect assumption. Full disclosure, Im a 46 yo Gen Xer that I feel, is the last generation to truly attempts to excel through had work and a commitment to excellence. Gen Yer and Millennials simply DO NOT have this drive.

JFC what a steaming load of garbage.

 

[shu 49]

The only coach that I thought had MM s grip on a team is Casemanto. I always heard coach m was tough as nails and with all his credibility coaching I would have figured kids and parents just let him do there thing. It is a new age thing with these parents telling Coach who should or shouldn’t play. He was the best. How do u not just shut up and do what ever that man said to do if u wanted to be a player. Like playing for Caz in football at cba, u just do what he says. I feel gotta have a hard line with parents now a days. If they think they can tell u something they will. Either way he was the best there is in lacrosse.. thanks coach M.

 

[PhatOrange]

what i don't get are the administrations and boards caving to the parents whims.

 

[ohmilax34]

You guys have to be careful with "Let the man do whatever he wants. He has earned it." I'm sure similar things were said about Joe Paterno. I think coach worship backfired at Penn State. Nobody wanted to disturb a great thing going at PSU so they kept their mouth shut about what Sandusky was doing. I'm not comparing PSU football with West Genesee lacrosse. I am comparing the feelings of the fans.