Monday Mind Cakes - Not the real My Take

[Jcuse_44]

I guess here's another long one.

Somebody said they didn't deserve the space, not that they have too much. That is the entirety of the cause for everything that followed and I think you are the one going to extremes. If I said I hate cauliflower, I am not in anyway comparing that to what is happening in the Middle East. Lets keep this within the confines of a football message board.

Again, you never said give the quad over, but it has been said. Multiple times. I am not sure why you are so focused on what you said, especially since I was not initially responding to you in the first place. The only reason I brought it up is again, because I was trying to explain that the students do indeed "deserve" a seat at the Dome given all they contribute to the betterment of the entire campus, including the athletic department and football team, and taking into it, the reality that many of them may be doing so involuntarily and may not want to incur that cost to attend SU and be overrun by outside parties that do (kinda like me saying I should have the right to use your backyard on weekends for my parties, but you don't deserve to be invited. Your mortgage pays for the house too and taxes go to paying for the police, and you cover all the utilities too, but the back yard is fair game because I brought my own beer).

I am saying that the alumni have lots of options and STILL support the school despite that, and the majority of students come from that same environment (the megalopolis) where all the options afforded them before they got to SU likely contributes to a student population that just isn't that into college football, (how many times has this been said on the recruiting page?) but as you can discern from "my straw man" (it's not a straw man as I am only saying that students pay for athletics beyond ticket sales which was in response to you saying the full cost of tuition does not go to the AD - your straw man argument in fact) they still cover the cost of the AD anywhere from 10% t0 25% of the total budget. You're right to say the university seems to want a big time program, and I am for it and glad it is investing the money in it... the students' money. It really doesn't matter what the local fanbase wants, in large part because we both agree that in the moneymaking athletics world, its the TV dollars that matter. The eyes that we claim drive our value so much are the ones in the megalopolis where the students and alumni are, so you are right to say Syracuse isn't in the megalopolis, but in your argument, you are weakening the value of the local fanbase. BTW they want to be in that population or they would not have invested so much in remote academic facilities in NYC and Washington DC (like so many other schools).

If we were a state school, I assume we'd be more like SUNY Albany or SUNY Buffalo. Not sure why you chose Binghamton except that it better reinforces your argument, but then you again mention other state schools propped up by state taxes in UMass and UConn that better fit the mold of single main campus. Both of those schools suffer from the same student apathy, and they do little to correct that because they don't need to (they don't rely on the popularity of the AD to bolster enrollment or income). Both have only recently started to invest in their programs and UConn in particular (2000) because of it's state budget problems. That is likely something that currently holds them back from inclusion in the Big12 (where the TV money, and not local support would benefit their budget issues).

Football history at SU is that of a rich oil baron investing in SU as a tax shelter and anti-trust defense (Archbold was CEO of Standard Oil until it was trust busted. His involvement and contributions to the university were in part because he wanted to give back for all he had taken, similar to the tobacco Duke family from NJ that founded Duke University in NC to give back to the poor sharecroppers they built their fortunes on). That is why he built the largest concrete stadium in 1907, and the lack of investment is why it stood until 1978, so again, there was little investment in football for the majority of the program's history. That said, the program is 135 years old at the D1 level. As I said, it existed before.

I'll simplify the point. They don't deserve that large of a portion of the seats. You really did a good job of taking this overboard. Kudos.

 

[NJCuse97]

I'll simplify the point. They don't deserve that large of a portion of the seats. You really did a good job of taking this overboard. Kudos.

How many do the deserve? They fund half the AD (about $40 million a year of an $80 million budget) and the first sellout of the year, the one you are complaining about, was mostly because those undeserving students had the nerve to bring their families to the game. They can’t re-sell student tickets, and I’m sure many bought additional tickets to sit with mom and dad. Why should anyone else deserve more? We don’t sell out without them. The rest of us aren’t even buying the seats that are available literally every other game.

In a fun thread about a gameday experience, your first post on this thread came right at the students and what they don’t do and never let up. Even when others said they blame the AD. Even when I pointed out just how much they contribute, you still suggest you deserve more (how else should I interpret “they deserve less”?) It’s kinda selfish when I think about it. Now it’s overboard.

 

[Pyle]

I guess here's another long one.

Somebody said they didn't deserve the space, not that they have too much. That is the entirety of the cause for everything that followed and I think you are the one going to extremes. If I said I hate cauliflower, I am not in anyway comparing that to what is happening in the Middle East. Lets keep this within the confines of a football message board.

Again, you never said give the quad over, but it has been said. Multiple times. I am not sure why you are so focused on what you said, especially since I was not initially responding to you in the first place. The only reason I brought it up is again, because I was trying to explain that the students do indeed "deserve" a seat at the Dome given all they contribute to the betterment of the entire campus, including the athletic department and football team, and taking into it, the reality that many of them may be doing so involuntarily and may not want to incur that cost to attend SU and be overrun by outside parties that do (kinda like me saying I should have the right to use your backyard on weekends for my parties, but you don't deserve to be invited. Your mortgage pays for the house too and taxes go to paying for the police, and you cover all the utilities too, but the back yard is fair game because I brought my own beer).

I am saying that the alumni have lots of options and STILL support the school despite that, and the majority of students come from that same environment (the megalopolis) where all the options afforded them before they got to SU likely contributes to a student population that just isn't that into college football, (how many times has this been said on the recruiting page?) but as you can discern from "my straw man" (it's not a straw man as I am only saying that students pay for athletics beyond ticket sales which was in response to you saying the full cost of tuition does not go to the AD - your straw man argument in fact) they still cover the cost of the AD anywhere from 10% t0 25% of the total budget. You're right to say the university seems to want a big time program, and I am for it and glad it is investing the money in it... the students' money. It really doesn't matter what the local fanbase wants, in large part because we both agree that in the moneymaking athletics world, its the TV dollars that matter. The eyes that we claim drive our value so much are the ones in the megalopolis where the students and alumni are, so you are right to say Syracuse isn't in the megalopolis, but in your argument, you are weakening the value of the local fanbase. BTW they want to be in that population or they would not have invested so much in remote academic facilities in NYC and Washington DC (like so many other schools).

If we were a state school, I assume we'd be more like SUNY Albany or SUNY Buffalo. Not sure why you chose Binghamton except that it better reinforces your argument, but then you again mention other state schools propped up by state taxes in UMass and UConn that better fit the mold of single main campus. Both of those schools suffer from the same student apathy, and they do little to correct that because they don't need to (they don't rely on the popularity of the AD to bolster enrollment or income). Both have only recently started to invest in their programs and UConn in particular (2000) because of it's state budget problems. That is likely something that currently holds them back from inclusion in the Big12 (where the TV money, and not local support would benefit their budget issues).

Football history at SU is that of a rich oil baron investing in SU as a tax shelter and anti-trust defense (Archbold was CEO of Standard Oil until it was trust busted. His involvement and contributions to the university were in part because he wanted to give back for all he had taken, similar to the tobacco Duke family from NJ that founded Duke University in NC to give back to the poor sharecroppers they built their fortunes on). That is why he built the largest concrete stadium in 1907, and the lack of investment is why it stood until 1978, so again, there was little investment in football for the majority of the program's history. That said, the program is 135 years old at the D1 level. As I said, it existed before.

If I'm replying to you and then you reply to me but you aren't addressing the things I brought up, say so so it doesn't look like you're accusing me of saying those things - Strawman fixed

Hate is a strong word, you throw it around like a water balloon at a birthday party.

If you pay me $300 you can bring your own beer and use my backyard. Go4it.

I take my Binghamton comment back, they don't have football, I was confusing them with Stony Brook who we played a few years back. Even UBuff only gets about 15k in a 30k seat stadium. So my point still remains though. It's not a big time program.

Alumni don't support the school. What makes you think they do? Most non-student sales are to locals, not alumni. Out of town alumni only make up a fraction of the butts in the seats.

That whole last paragraph about Oil barons is just blargon. You really like to type a lot don't you?

It really doesn't matter what the local fanbase wants

You seem to have a lot of disdain for the local fanbase. Shame, because if that dome was empty, they wouldn't be getting those TV deals.

Feel free to reply if you want, but I'm done with this conversation. Go Cuse!

 

[NJCuse97]

If I'm replying to you and then you reply to me but you aren't addressing the things I brought up, say so so it doesn't look like you're accusing me of saying those things - Strawman fixed

Hate is a strong word, you throw it around like a water balloon at a birthday party.

If you pay me $300 you can bring your own beer and use my backyard. Go4it.

I take my Binghamton comment back, they don't have football, I was confusing them with Stony Brook who we played a few years back. Even UBuff only gets about 15k in a 30k seat stadium. So my point still remains though. It's not a big time program.

Alumni don't support the school. What makes you think they do? Most non-student sales are to locals, not alumni. Out of town alumni only make up a fraction of the butts in the seats.

That whole last paragraph about Oil barons is just blargon. You really like to type a lot don't you?


You seem to have a lot of disdain for the local fanbase. Shame, because if that dome was empty, they wouldn't be getting those TV deals.

Feel free to reply if you want, but I'm done with this conversation. Go Cuse!

I like your version of the "my take" and I was only responding to another post/poster on the thread. I understand the frustration with the student participation, but it has almost always been this way (or when the students DO get into it, they get told to sit down and be quiet. I have literally experienced this when I was a student multiple times, but that's for another thread).

In post #34 you said to me (mind you to that point I had not posted anything in response to you) you said "Who said they hate the students? Straw-man". In response, I said in post #36 "Look at the post I was responding to. Jcuse_44 said the students "don't deserve the space" they were given in the Dome (upper tier in the end zone mind you) in addition to several other similar comments. I take that as hate."

That's about as immediate and direct as I can be. It plainly answers your question. As for the term "hate", I guess I will be more careful with my use of the term here since it seems to trigger some in the way that accusing the students of be undeserving of seats triggers me. Perhaps I should just come up with synonyms for hate and use them instead to disguise my meaning. You use the term disdain. Per Webster's, they are synonyms. "Disdain. as in contempt. open dislike for someone or something considered unworthy of one's concern or respect showing undisguised disdain for the other employees. contempt. hatred."

Thesaurus results for DISDAIN

Synonyms for DISDAIN: contempt, hatred, disgust, distaste, scorn, hate, malice, hostility; Antonyms of DISDAIN: respect, admiration, regard, esteem, favor, estimation, acceptance, tolerance

www.merriam-webster.com

Be more careful with you words.

As for money ($300 to use your back yard) I would get that for what, 6 weekends? I think that's one of the least expensive season tickets in the country. I wonder if they'd be that cheap if the tuition wasn't covering $40 million of the AD budget according to your post #40 "Syracuse University students paid a $2,340 fee each year to fund the school's sports teams. This fee was not for using the gym or funding student clubs and activities." (2,340 x 22,000 = $51,480,000 per year to the AD from students).

I brought up Archbold because the program being elevated to a higher status level was entirely due to donations of a single oil tycoon in 1908. Not tuition, and not local support.

I have no hate, or in your words disdain for the local fanbase. I support the school and anyone who does the same. The comment I reacted to and others that since followed, seem to ignore the huge contribution made by one facet of that, the students. I called it out for the same disdain you are accusing me of because I defended them.

As for alumni support, you don't get what we have, including Doug Marrone, JAB and now Red, or Roy Simmons, Sr and Jr, John Desko, and now Gary Gait and Kayla Treanor as coaches without it. You don't get a nearly $2 billion endowment without it. You don't get all those buildings with the names on them (including Melo, Einsley, Lally, Manley, Lampe to name a few) without it. I am certain of it as I have had opportunity to meet with some of those incredibly generous alumni. It isn't just about them attending the games.