My issue with the offense

[money3189]

I understand what the staff is doing and I understand why they are doin it. I like that they are playing power football within spread formations (until we can get the proper athletes) Our limitations at QB/WR positions makes it tougher to be as productive as we want. I get that. What I dont understand is the designs of their PA pass plays. I would think our staff could do better at that. Every PA pass is mostly in a I formation, under center and it has two WR's doing verticals/seam routes. I wonder why the staff dont have have more PA plays that allow Hunt to roll out and have run/pass option. Also having the WR's flooding to one side of the field. This could be done in shotgun or under center. That power play that we run so effectively should have a PA pass play that we can burn teams on consistently.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I understand what the staff is doing and I understand why they are doin it. I like that they are playing power football within spread formations (until we can get the proper athletes) Our limitations at QB/WR positions makes it tougher to be as productive as we want. I get that. What I dont understand is the designs of their PA pass plays. I would think our staff could do better at that. Every PA pass is mostly in a I formation, under center and it has two WR's doing verticals/seam routes. I wonder why the staff dont have have more PA plays that allow Hunt to roll out and have run/pass option. Also having the WR's flooding to one side of the field. This could be done in shotgun or under center. That power play that we run so effectively should have a PA pass play that we can burn teams on consistently.

I've been wondering about this too.

 

[Finwad32]

I understand what the staff is doing and I understand why they are doin it. I like that they are playing power football within spread formations (until we can get the proper athletes) Our limitations at QB/WR positions makes it tougher to be as productive as we want. I get that. What I dont understand is the designs of their PA pass plays. I would think our staff could do better at that. Every PA pass is mostly in a I formation, under center and it has two WR's doing verticals/seam routes. I wonder why the staff dont have have more PA plays that allow Hunt to roll out and have run/pass option. Also having the WR's flooding to one side of the field. This could be done in shotgun or under center. That power play that we run so effectively should have a PA pass play that we can burn teams on consistently.

Agreed Money. I understand going under center. But we can't be so transparent based on our offensive sets and formations. I thing GM is trying to find his way and I think he'll be fine the more time that goes by. That being said we need more versatility offensively and having a dual threat like Hunt creates more of those opportunities, not less.

Give him an underneath, middle and deep route to the side he's rolling, let him get out there and toy with the defender. And when the defense adjusts, have something backside.

 

[OrangeFoo]

I think the answer is pretty simple... they don't trust their QB to make any reads but the vertical throws down the field and they don't trust his ability to throw anything but bubble screens.

The whole offense has been structures to work around the limitations of Hunt. I think we will see more and more pure option plays the last few games of the season and we won't see any other passes but slants, bubble screens, swing passes , or go routes. These guys don't trust their QB throwing a forward pass.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I think the answer is pretty simple... they don't trust their QB to make any reads but the vertical throws down the field and they don't trust his ability to throw anything but bubble screens.

That's why a rollout is a good idea though. Most rollouts you've only got a primary and a secondary route in play. And usually they're both pretty much right in front of the QB.

 

[OrangeFoo]

That's why a rollout is a good idea though. Most rollouts you've only got a primary and a secondary route in play. And usually they're both pretty much right in front of the QB.

Hunt is barely adequate in the pocket in terms of accuracy... how bad is he on the run?

 

[JeremyCuse]

My problem with the offense is that the passing game and the accompanying play calling make pretty much zero sense. As Bees pointed out last week we have some mild success with the WR bubble/jailbreak screen and now we want to run it a dozen times a game. Thats fine if your playing Wagner but running that play a dozen times against FSU is going to get Estime put in intensive care at the nearest florida Hospital. My question is where is the downfield and intermediate passing??? Broyld showed early in the year he can run routes and nearly had a TD on an intermediate pass play against PSU, where the heck have they gone? What about a screen pass? Slant? double move? I know we have QB and WR issues but could we at least try and throw the ball in the 10-20 yard intermediate range? Deep crosses/rub routes/ comeback routes?

 

[Finwad32]

Hunt is barely adequate in the pocket in terms of accuracy... how bad is he on the run?

You can't make the determination that he's worse on the run. We haven't seen enough of it to know definitively. Money is just wondering if they even have it in. As do I.

I also agree with Jeremy that we need the intermediate passing game to stretch the coverage we're seeing.

Just bc Hunt may have limitations does not mean you give up on developing different pieces of his game.

 

[SmilinBob]

GM has said that roll outs take away too much of the field as you only have the right side along with maybe part of the middle. His logic is sound but I agree once in a while the roll outs with the correct routes could be very beneficial.

 

[OrangeFoo]

You can't make the determination that he's worse on the run. We haven't seen enough of it to know definitively. Money is just wondering if they even have it in. As do I.

I also agree with Jeremy that we need the intermediate passing game to stretch the coverage we're seeing.

Just bc Hunt may have limitations does not mean you give up on developing different pieces of his game.

If developing his game leads to more turnovers and losses then I would argue that you don't develop his game at the risk of overall team goals. Also we don't know what they see in practice... maybe they have tried him on the run in practice and it has looked ugly?

 

[Finwad32]

GM has said that roll outs take away too much of the field as you only have the right side along with maybe part of the middle. His logic is sound but I agree once in a while the roll outs with the correct routes could be very beneficial.

I don't remember that, good memory Bob.

Although GM has vastly more knowledge than I, the theory can go two ways. Sound theory if you have a QB that can read the entire field and utilizes it. But I'd have to imagine that cutting the field in half and utilizing hunt's athleticism may be beneficial even if only used sparingly. In use 2-3 times a game can keep a D from shifting coverage to Hunt's right and anticipating the rollout.

The PA action aspect should hold the Mike and SS depending on the formation creating some one on ones. Baiting the short or intermediate defender can now come into play.

This is all just theoretical given a 4-3 team in certain coverages.

 

[Finwad32]

If developing his game leads to more turnovers and losses then I would argue that you don't develop his game at the risk of overall team goals. Also we don't know what they see in practice... maybe they have tried him on the run in practice and it has looked ugly?

Very possible indeed. Just throwing out some discussion points.

I agree with you about the turnovers and team goals, but one thing the rollout can do is create options. Throw, run and get rid of the ball. Obviously the staff knows much more than me and I'm sure they work it in practice.

 

[SmilinBob]

As Finwad said, maybe Hunt has a hard time getting his feet right when he rolls out and his throws stay high? Also possible that the right side of the OL doesn't execute the roll out as well as GM likes or wants?

 

[money3189]

That's why a rollout is a good idea though. Most rollouts you've only got a primary and a secondary route in play. And usually they're both pretty much right in front of the QB.

exactly

 

[javadoc]

GM has said that roll outs take away too much of the field as you only have the right side along with maybe part of the middle. His logic is sound but I agree once in a while the roll outs with the correct routes could be very beneficial.

Thus the beauty of the TE throw-back.

 

[OrangePA]

I understand what the staff is doing and I understand why they are doin it. I like that they are playing power football within spread formations (until we can get the proper athletes) Our limitations at QB/WR positions makes it tougher to be as productive as we want. I get that. What I dont understand is the designs of their PA pass plays. I would think our staff could do better at that. Every PA pass is mostly in a I formation, under center and it has two WR's doing verticals/seam routes. I wonder why the staff dont have have more PA plays that allow Hunt to roll out and have run/pass option. Also having the WR's flooding to one side of the field. This could be done in shotgun or under center. That power play that we run so effectively should have a PA pass play that we can burn teams on consistently.

I would like to see Hunt roll out from time to time.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

exactly

And to add one more thought to this - Hunt's shown enough elusiveness that he wouldn't necessarily have to make a throw. There were a few times Saturday where he made the handoff and then rolled out, and there wasn't anybody on that side of the field. Those are good circumstances for a keeper.

 

[TheCusian]

I think the answer is pretty simple... they don't trust their QB to make any reads but the vertical throws down the field and they don't trust his ability to throw anything but bubble screens.

The whole offense has been structures to work around the limitations of Hunt. I think we will see more and more pure option plays the last few games of the season and we won't see any other passes but slants, bubble screens, swing passes , or go routes. These guys don't trust their QB throwing a forward pass.

Mostly spot on - but a little to black and white. In the Maryland game he was making reads and passing the ball down the field some.

 

[money3189]

And to add one more thought to this - Hunt's shown enough elusiveness that he wouldn't necessarily have to make a throw. There were a few times Saturday where he made the handoff and then rolled out, and there wasn't anybody on that side of the field. Those are good circumstances for a keeper.

Thats my point. This allows him to use his athleticism on a boot pass play. He can throw it to a the TE/Slot 10 to 12 yds. down the field towards the sidelines. If the intermediate throw is not there can dart it out the FB/TB sliding out to the flats and if the backers cover the flats, he can take off with it. Worse case scenario he throws it out of bounds. Every high school team has this play. We should be able to do this at the D1 level. But some of you may be right. They could be working on it but cant complete in practice lol.

 

[money3189]

As Finwad said, maybe Hunt has a hard time getting his feet right when he rolls out and his throws stay high? Also possible that the right side of the OL doesn't execute the roll out as well as GM likes or wants?

could be. The one time i saw a roll out was against wake forest. It was a 3rd down play. he was trying to throw the out pass to Broyld right by their sideline but he didnt complete it. It wasnt even close. I couldnt tell if the ball was tip or not. I replayed it over and over again. Still couldnt figure it out.

 

[GoSU96]

I understand what the staff is doing and I understand why they are doin it. I like that they are playing power football within spread formations (until we can get the proper athletes) Our limitations at QB/WR positions makes it tougher to be as productive as we want. I get that. What I dont understand is the designs of their PA pass plays. I would think our staff could do better at that. Every PA pass is mostly in a I formation, under center and it has two WR's doing verticals/seam routes. I wonder why the staff dont have have more PA plays that allow Hunt to roll out and have run/pass option. Also having the WR's flooding to one side of the field. This could be done in shotgun or under center. That power play that we run so effectively should have a PA pass play that we can burn teams on consistently.

They can play action out of the pistol/zone read look. The wheel and pop pass are always there, they ran it against NW for a TD, and I haven't seen much of that play since. It was the single biggest play in the playbook last year.

Agree on the bootleg/rollout action. Bread and butter play was the drag route to the TE with a medium to deep out on top of that from the same side as the action. West coast staple.

I think the dump off to Cleland was a check down from a deep throw where he moved the pocket.

 

[money3189]

They can play action out of the pistol/zone read look. The wheel and pop pass are always there, they ran it against NW for a TD, and I haven't seen much of that play since. It was the single biggest play in the playbook last year.

Agree on the bootleg/rollout action. Bread and butter play was the drag route to the TE with a medium to deep out on top of that from the same side as the action. West coast staple.

I think the dump off to Cleland was a check down from a deep throw where he moved the pocket.

Right and I think with our ability to run the ball so well it give us a high perccentage pass play that we can rely on. I would think it would be good on 3rd and 5's. since we are struggling converting on 3rd down.

 

[upperdeck]

Hunt is consistently off target, he is getting better at the bubble screen throws but not much else. we have the TE block a bunch of plays, so play action boot has one less guy throw too.. also teams like clem just play press coverage so the play action wasnt really freeing up the WR. FSU will probably play man.

how would you play us with their athletes on D.. we have shown no ability to get deep so , press up and make the run tough.. we need to complete the few free releases we get if we want any running game. it will be interesting to see how FSU plays the empty back field. so far Hunt has shown he can win that battle on occasion

 

[timkay99]

As Finwad said, maybe Hunt has a hard time getting his feet right when he rolls out and his throws stay high? Also possible that the right side of the OL doesn't execute the roll out as well as GM likes or wants?

I agree with the 2nd part. Foy does a lot of things well. Moving out in space and being on an island pass blocking isn't one of them.

If the right side of the OL had that type of agility, maybe GM would have designed a pass play for them instead of Hickey and Trudo!

 

[Millhouse]

I think the answer is pretty simple... they don't trust their QB to make any reads but the vertical throws down the field and they don't trust his ability to throw anything but bubble screens.

The whole offense has been structures to work around the limitations of Hunt. I think we will see more and more pure option plays the last few games of the season and we won't see any other passes but slants, bubble screens, swing passes , or go routes. These guys don't trust their QB throwing a forward pass.

i don't even know if they trust qbs to make vertical throws. they just want to get DBs the hell out of the way of the running game by sending WR to the endzones and sidelines.

chip mentioned this weeks ago, he called it