My Take

[malpearl31]

I guess where we disagree is that I don't think Buddy warrants the amount of minutes he gets to "get hot". Again, if anything, JGIII has started to decrease his volume shooting and improve his D metrics, basically what we all were asking for and could be argued that he should start.

In fact, I have hard time seeing how Buddy should start and, plainly, I think if his name was John Doe, he wouldn't, or at least would have a much shorter leash.

To me, the players that have warranted starting/most minutes are: Q, AG (even tho he is auditioning for the NBA no doubt) and KR.

Buddy was shot-hunting in the 2H when the game was over. Something AG usually does if he doesn't get enough touches (or at least in his own head).

I don't know. To me, Buddy can get 30+ when he's on fire. But he has done nothing that warrants the offense to allow him to be the guy that shoots the most on this team. That's outrageous. Any other team/coach, there would be a lot more scrutiny on it.

So, yes, play the best players. Buddy is not one of our best players.

What puzzles me (and I think a few others around here) is why there's so much negativity around Buddy and Joe whether we win or we lose / whether they play well or play poorly. After a game like last night's, when all three of Joe/Buddy/Kadary played well (and played together! - a lineup we really hadn't seen much of before) and we won by 26 - I'm just surprised at how many people are complaining. If you didn't watch the game, you'd think we lost by 15 and that Buddy and Joe combined to go 1-20 from the floor from reading some of these posts.

I can obviously speak only for myself - for the most part, I don't really care who plays and how many minutes each guy gets. When Joe sat for the final 19 minutes against Buffalo while Kadary played (and played really well), I was happy that we got the W. When Joe played the bulk of the minutes 2 games later against Georgetown (and played really well), I was thrilled that we beat the Hoyas. (I hate those guys.) When all 3 guys played together (and played really well) in the blowout win last night - I was on Cloud 9 watching the game and seeing us get back on track.

You may well be right - that if Buddy wasn't JB's son, his role on the team would be much different. But he is JB's son... and JB thinks that his offensive abilities outweigh his defensive shortcomings. We can complain all we want about that (some of us here are better at doing that than others) but none of us here can change that, and the reality is we're probably gonna see Buddy on the court for 30+ minutes more often than not through March 2022 (and maybe beyond). So I choose to hope that Buddy catches fire going forward, and helps us win a bunch of games.

And to be clear, I'm not calling you out for being critical or telling anybody who doesn't share my opinion to shut up. I think some of your posts in recent weeks have been great - I'm a big fan of advanced stats, and you've done a great job sharing some stuff recently that highlight Joe's and Buddy's offensive struggles. Keep it coming and Let's Go Orange!

 

[djcon57]

What puzzles me (and I think a few others around here) is why there's so much negativity around Buddy and Joe whether we win or we lose / whether they play well or play poorly. After a game like last night's, when all three of Joe/Buddy/Kadary played well (and played together! - a lineup we really hadn't seen much of before) and we won by 26 - I'm just surprised at how many people are complaining. If you didn't watch the game, you'd think we lost by 15 and that Buddy and Joe combined to go 1-20 from the floor from reading some of these posts.

I can obviously speak only for myself - for the most part, I don't really care who plays and how many minutes each guy gets. When Joe sat for the final 19 minutes against Buffalo while Kadary played (and played really well), I was happy that we got the W. When Joe played the bulk of the minutes 2 games later against Georgetown (and played really well), I was thrilled that we beat the Hoyas. (I hate those guys.) When all 3 guys played together (and played really well) in the blowout win last night - I was on Cloud 9 watching the game and seeing us get back on track.

You may well be right - that if Buddy wasn't JB's son, his role on the team would be much different. But he is JB's son... and JB thinks that his offensive abilities outweigh his defensive shortcomings. We can complain all we want about that (some of us here are better at doing that than others) but none of us here can change that, and the reality is we're probably gonna see Buddy on the court for 30+ minutes more often than not through March 2022 (and maybe beyond). So I choose to hope that Buddy catches fire going forward, and helps us win a bunch of games.

And to be clear, I'm not calling you out for being critical or telling anybody who doesn't share my opinion to shut up. I think some of your posts in recent weeks have been great - I'm a big fan of advanced stats, and you've done a great job sharing some stuff recently that highlight Joe's and Buddy's offensive struggles. Keep it coming and Let's Go Orange!

I’m 10000 percent thrilled when all 3 play well.

My concern is specific to JB not turning to Kadary in a game where we have a lead (Pitt 1 for example) or not turning to him quick enough when we fall behind (Pitt 2 2nd half) and playing the Joe/Buddy lineup to the point of no return based on them playing well in other situations.

 

[MikeSU02]

What puzzles me (and I think a few others around here) is why there's so much negativity around Buddy and Joe whether we win or we lose / whether they play well or play poorly. After a game like last night's, when all three of Joe/Buddy/Kadary played well (and played together! - a lineup we really hadn't seen much of before) and we won by 26 - I'm just surprised at how many people are complaining. If you didn't watch the game, you'd think we lost by 15 and that Buddy and Joe combined to go 1-20 from the floor from reading some of these posts.

I can obviously speak only for myself - for the most part, I don't really care who plays and how many minutes each guy gets. When Joe sat for the final 19 minutes against Buffalo while Kadary played (and played really well), I was happy that we got the W. When Joe played the bulk of the minutes 2 games later against Georgetown (and played really well), I was thrilled that we beat the Hoyas. (I hate those guys.) When all 3 guys played together (and played really well) in the blowout win last night - I was on Cloud 9 watching the game and seeing us get back on track.

You may well be right - that if Buddy wasn't JB's son, his role on the team would be much different. But he is JB's son... and JB thinks that his offensive abilities outweigh his defensive shortcomings. We can complain all we want about that (some of us here are better at doing that than others) but none of us here can change that, and the reality is we're probably gonna see Buddy on the court for 30+ minutes more often than not through March 2022 (and maybe beyond). So I choose to hope that Buddy catches fire going forward, and helps us win a bunch of games.

And to be clear, I'm not calling you out for being critical or telling anybody who doesn't share my opinion to shut up. I think some of your posts in recent weeks have been great - I'm a big fan of advanced stats, and you've done a great job sharing some stuff recently that highlight Joe's and Buddy's offensive struggles. Keep it coming and Let's Go Orange!

The way I look at it is that it's great on an individual game basis if someone goes off, whether it be Buddy, JGIII, Kadary, etc etc. Whether people believe it or not, I cheer just as hard for a shot to go in by Buddy as I do for Kadary.

My issue is that, on the whole, JB is putting out a lineup and has an offensive strategy that makes no sense **to me** for us to win consistently and I think I have a pretty rational argument to feel that way.

So, my contention is that the answers are extremely clear, but JB is going against those decisions. This hurts us in win totals, recruiting, growth of players. It essentially hurts the program, overall.

Again, to me, we are not a three point shooting team. Buddy, in no way, shape or form, should be allowed to have the most shots on the team and the highest usage rate with what his abilities are. If someone else thinks Buddy is a good to great player, s/he and I will never see eye to eye, at least with what Buddy's done so far.

So, on a game by game basis, when watching, I'll root for whomever JB puts out there. Buddy Boeheim, Buddy Holly, Buddy Ebson (did I spell that right? Is that a real person?). However, what I fundamentally don't agree with is the decision to continuously start who he starts, allow for the mpg for certain players and what I would honestly call an obnoxious amount of shots that he lets Buddy take.

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate Buddy, but whatever got us to Buddy taking the most shots per game, can't continue for us to win consistently and at a high level.

At the beginning of the year, I outlined the issues with JGIII. Then I made a long post about JGIII vs Buddy, which, in my mind, is really the question at this point.

Buddy is not an offensively efficient player. He isn't drawing nearly enough fouls to warrant the amount of shots he is taking. His defense isn't good.

So is it good we beat up a not great Miami team? Yes, of course. You got to bank as many wins as possible. Am I happy? Of course. Am I still concerned about what I see? Yes. Because I think it's clear what changes need to be made, or at least attempted, to get us to the next level and I don't think they're going to be made.

Maybe I'm wrong and we'll rip off a six game winning streak. Maybe Buddy will be first team All ACC. I dunno. But if I had to put money on it, I think every minute we play with Buddy and JGIII to start a game, puts us at a disadvantage from the tip. So, yes, I care who plays, because I think the answer to us being mediocre lies in our lineups at this point. The defense is not changing. There isn't going to be some offensive renaissance with JB. He is who he is. We just have to elevate our potential on the floor with who we have.

So, that's my long-winded answer.

 

[Scott11]

Buddy, AG and JG3 are all about shot selection. All of them can make open shots. All of them tend to force shots that they shouldn't even think about taking and often early in the shot clock. And all three of them should be held accountable for that by the staff but usually are not. One of the biggest reasons we won last night was because Buddy and Girard took good shots and AG was taken out when he chucked. As i said on the game thread I fear AG is more concerned about scoring than winning and also think the other 2 are not immune to the issue of wanting to get theirs.
Marek looks scared to shoot and rebound aggressively. I wonder if that is as a result of the injury. In two of the last three games he has turned down dunk opportunities.
Jesse was a revelation last night. As overwhelmed as he was last year, you could at least see that he can catch a ball and lay it in, which is something we have not been able to take for granted from our big men for the last few years. His free throw stroke is solid. He has an idea what to do with the ball. What makes him intriguing to me is his length, although on a couple of occasions he was late getting to the shooter in the middle and his length could not make up for it. I think that issue will improve with experience.
Quincy is getting it done. I actually think he should look for his shot more. I think teams are going to give him more attention which will allow him to pass the ball to open shooters. You can see how much work he has put into his game, in particular his shot and footwork, particularly in the low post. Dropping 18 on only 10 shots is impressive. Miami had no answer for him.
I have no clue why Braswell was buried last night, especially after JB went out of his way to note he passed Woody in the rotation.
Kadary was great last night. His defense, handle and distribution are so much better than anyone else on the roster that I'd submit he should be the early first sub for whichever of the Buddy/AG/JG trio is playing poorly. Ironically all three of those players are better when Kadary is on the floor to set them up. I think some on this board get a little carried away about Kadary, he still is young and needs to work on his shot. He will make mistakes. But his skillsets on this team are unique and undeniable. He is their best defender and passer and needs to be on the court 20-25 minutes at a minimum.

 

[malpearl31]

The way I look at it is that it's great on an individual game basis if someone goes off, whether it be Buddy, JGIII, Kadary, etc etc. Whether people believe it or not, I cheer just as hard for a shot to go in by Buddy as I do for Kadary.

My issue is that, on the whole, JB is putting out a lineup and has an offensive strategy that makes no sense **to me** for us to win consistently and I think I have a pretty rational argument to feel that way.

So, my contention is that the answers are extremely clear, but JB is going against those decisions. This hurts us in win totals, recruiting, growth of players. It essentially hurts the program, overall.

Again, to me, we are not a three point shooting team. Buddy, in no way, shape or form, should be allowed to have the most shots on the team and the highest usage rate with what his abilities are. If someone else thinks Buddy is a good to great player, s/he and I will never see eye to eye, at least with what Buddy's done so far.

So, on a game by game basis, when watching, I'll root for whomever JB puts out there. Buddy Boeheim, Buddy Holly, Buddy Ebson (did I spell that right? Is that a real person?). However, what I fundamentally don't agree with is the decision to continuously start who he starts, allow for the mpg for certain players and what I would honestly call an obnoxious amount of shots that he lets Buddy take.

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate Buddy, but whatever got us to Buddy taking the most shots per game, can't continue for us to win consistently and at a high level.

At the beginning of the year, I outlined the issues with JGIII. Then I made a long post about JGIII vs Buddy, which, in my mind, is really the question at this point.

Buddy is not an offensively efficient player. He isn't drawing nearly enough fouls to warrant the amount of shots he is taking. His defense isn't good.

So is it good we beat up a not great Miami team? Yes, of course. You got to bank as many wins as possible. Am I happy? Of course. Am I still concerned about what I see? Yes. Because I think it's clear what changes need to be made, or at least attempted, to get us to the next level and I don't think they're going to be made.

Maybe I'm wrong and we'll rip off a six game winning streak. Maybe Buddy will be first team All ACC. I dunno. But if I had to put money on it, I think every minute we play with Buddy and JGIII to start a game, puts us at a disadvantage from the tip. So, yes, I care who plays, because I think the answer to us being mediocre lies in our lineups at this point. The defense is not changing. There isn't going to be some offensive renaissance with JB. He is who he is. We just have to elevate our potential on the floor with who we have.

So, that's my long-winded answer.

I hear you, and I actually agree with a lot of what you wrote. And I very much appreciate the tone of your reply (in general, not just this last one where you replied to me).

Question back to you: What is your 'go to' source for defensive statistics? I'm a big KenPom guy, but there really aren't any defensive stats on his site. I'd love to find another place where I can feed my need for deep statistical analysis.

 

[JoeSU]

I have limited time, so let's stop wasting time and get this post going,

Another surprising result in a season full of them. When a team is killed that badly, you wonder how good they are. Well, Miami beat Purdue early this season. They have had a series of heart breaking 1 or 2 point losses but had won 2 of their last 3, including a win against a decent NC State team in Raleigh and a win at home against UL (they were ranked #16 at the time).

They miss Lykes a lot. Losing a senior PG is always a big blow. But he has been out since the first two games of the season. Still, you can tell they lack a leader running the half court offense. They did not do a good job attacking the zone.

Good to see the backcourt playing well again. Might be the first game all 3 guards played well. Hope to see more of that. It seemed like things started to roll when Kadary came in and JGIII was moved to the 2. He can attack defenses from the wing playing the 2, can get the ball closer to the basket, making it easier for him to get looks from the paint...in short, he has a lot more freedom to try and get open in places where he can score. And Kadary looked for him and get him the ball in those places. We need to see more of that. There was chemistry there that I don't see a lot with JGIII and Buddy.

Alan seems to have games where he is just not there mentally. This was one of them. He just stood around on the perimeter when he was in, and jacked a couple of bad 3s, where he was either too far from the basket or had someone in his face. Air balls. He comes back in and almost immediately throws a really risky pass to a player underneath, but reads the cut wrong and the pass goes to no one. Just mindless, awful basketball. I think he was frustrated at getting pulled early and let it affect his play. He has to work harder to get open. Can't just force bad shots from the perimeter and expect to do well.

Marek was again not himself. Didn't even take a shot until late in the game. I think he had 2 rebounds late in the game. Barely even touched the ball. Since he was hit in the face by the Georgetown kid, he has not been the same.

UNC 35 minutes, 2-3 from the field, 2-2 from the FT line, 3 rebounds, 2 assists, 6 points
Pitt 39 minutes, 4-6 from the field, 6-8 from the FT line, 3 rebounds, 3 assists, 14 points
Miami 27 minutes, 0-1 from the field, 0-0 from the FT line, 4 rebounds, 3 assists, 0 points

He has taken 10 shots in 3 games. He should be doing that for every game. He has 10 rebounds in 3 games. Edwards had 6 in 23 minutes last night. Hope he gets his mojo back. We need him to score and rebound the ball.

It looked like there was some effort made to get the ball to Quincy down low. I think this is becoming a point of emphasis, which is great to see. Kadary in particular is good at finding him open down low.

Edwards is not a great rebounder. He is going to be in position, get his hands on the ball and get it knocked loose a lot. He is going to get knocked on his butt a lot. Just doesn't have the strength he needs. I so hope there is a major change in the way the players work during the off season where they can be introduced to weight training to gain muscle mass and strength. We have to have the worst weight training program in the country and it is costing us a lot of victories. I hope this is not by design (and that we want the weakest team in the country every season). Please, make the players lift weights, eat right and develop bodies comparable to the rest of the teams in the ACC. Please.

That said, Jesse has some athletic ability. He is long, noticeably longer than Marek to my eye (think wingspan) and when Miami got the ball into the paint, Edwards affected some shots. He was only credited with 1 block (I think they might have missed one or two) but this was the first time this year I have missed opposing players show some concern over taking shots inside (they should be concerned about the great weak side help Q is providing a couple of times each game as well).

Good to see Kadary playing with confidence again. He was still a bit more tentative than I would like but he is clearly our best guard passing the ball, especially down low, and he is a major disruptive force up top in the zone. I will be very interested to see what kind of numbers he puts up for blocks and steals when he starts playing 30 or more minutes a game.

Glad Buddy and JGIII are feeling better. I suspect the bad UM defense was also partly responsible for their major improvements but good to see them making a lot of shots, and I was happy with Joe's shot selection (only one suspect shot, a very long 3 at the start of the shot clock which he made). Sad Braswell played so little in a game where Alan was a non factor. Did we really need to play Buddy at forward so much in the 2nd half?

I am wondering though if the reason this was done was to see how well things went with JGIII, Buddy and Kadary all playing at the same time. It might be something he is going to use more as the season progresses. Because that 3 guard grouping was very effective on offense and not bad rebounding or defending.

Alan better step up his game or his minutes are going to be going down.

To paraphrase Mark Twain, you didn't have time to write a short game summary, so you wrote a long one instead.

 

[Alsacs]

The way I look at it is that it's great on an individual game basis if someone goes off, whether it be Buddy, JGIII, Kadary, etc etc. Whether people believe it or not, I cheer just as hard for a shot to go in by Buddy as I do for Kadary.

My issue is that, on the whole, JB is putting out a lineup and has an offensive strategy that makes no sense **to me** for us to win consistently and I think I have a pretty rational argument to feel that way.

So, my contention is that the answers are extremely clear, but JB is going against those decisions. This hurts us in win totals, recruiting, growth of players. It essentially hurts the program, overall.

Again, to me, we are not a three point shooting team. Buddy, in no way, shape or form, should be allowed to have the most shots on the team and the highest usage rate with what his abilities are. If someone else thinks Buddy is a good to great player, s/he and I will never see eye to eye, at least with what Buddy's done so far.

So, on a game by game basis, when watching, I'll root for whomever JB puts out there. Buddy Boeheim, Buddy Holly, Buddy Ebson (did I spell that right? Is that a real person?). However, what I fundamentally don't agree with is the decision to continuously start who he starts, allow for the mpg for certain players and what I would honestly call an obnoxious amount of shots that he lets Buddy take.

Don't get me wrong. I don't hate Buddy, but whatever got us to Buddy taking the most shots per game, can't continue for us to win consistently and at a high level.

At the beginning of the year, I outlined the issues with JGIII. Then I made a long post about JGIII vs Buddy, which, in my mind, is really the question at this point.

Buddy is not an offensively efficient player. He isn't drawing nearly enough fouls to warrant the amount of shots he is taking. His defense isn't good.

So is it good we beat up a not great Miami team? Yes, of course. You got to bank as many wins as possible. Am I happy? Of course. Am I still concerned about what I see? Yes. Because I think it's clear what changes need to be made, or at least attempted, to get us to the next level and I don't think they're going to be made.

Maybe I'm wrong and we'll rip off a six game winning streak. Maybe Buddy will be first team All ACC. I dunno. But if I had to put money on it, I think every minute we play with Buddy and JGIII to start a game, puts us at a disadvantage from the tip. So, yes, I care who plays, because I think the answer to us being mediocre lies in our lineups at this point. The defense is not changing. There isn't going to be some offensive renaissance with JB. He is who he is. We just have to elevate our potential on the floor with who we have.

So, that's my long-winded answer.

Well said again.
It’s usage rate and minutes.

If a player is playing well they deserve a lot of minutes but sorry that standard doesn’t apply to everyone. Which is the overarching point.
Buddy isn’t playing well enough to be the leading team in MPG and shots.

This is the whole point.
There is no way Buddy has been our best player.
He has dominated in stretches and played poorly in stretches.
Yet pointing this out makes you a hater.

 

[MikeSU02]

I hear you, and I actually agree with a lot of what you wrote. And I very much appreciate the tone of your reply (in general, not just this last one where you replied to me).

Question back to you: What is your 'go to' source for defensive statistics? I'm a big KenPom guy, but there really aren't any defensive stats on his site. I'd love to find another place where I can feed my need for deep statistical analysis.

I'll use DBPM and DWS (can get those off sports reference)+ the eye test + aggregate individual stats (ie steals, blocks; especially blocks at the guard position because that's such a unicorn thing to have) + what I see from Cuse reporters.

No defensive metric is perfect for an individual, for sure, and Kadary definitely gets gassed (whether he had COVID, just not used to the college game) that can impact his defensive peak.

It's why I'd want to see a lineup where Bras, Woody and Kadary are on the floor together. Since we aren't an offensive juggernaut, I would LOVE to see us try to see if we can ratchet up the defense, even if it's for like two minutes. Just to see.

Listen, I can insert the JB has forgotten more basketball than I'll ever know line. I get it. But it's not like Buddy and JGIII are seniors this year. There is a chance that they can be the starting backcourt for two more years and that, to be honest, scares me.

 

[Scott11]

Well said again.
It’s usage rate and minutes.

If a player is playing well they deserve a lot of minutes but sorry that standard doesn’t apply to everyone. Which is the overarching point.
Buddy isn’t playing well enough to be the leading team in MPG and shots.

View attachment 195012

This is the whole point.
There is no way Buddy has been our best player.
He has dominated in stretches and played poorly in stretches.
Yet pointing this out makes you a hater.

Great post here. If Buddy is playing more minutes and taking 5 more shots per game than Quincy, something is seriously wrong. And between AG, Buddy and JG's minutes, there are easily another 5 or so at a minimum for Kadary.

 

[Scott11]

I'll use DBPM and DWS (can get those off sports reference)+ the eye test + aggregate individual stats (ie steals, blocks; especially blocks at the guard position because that's such a unicorn thing to have) + what I see from Cuse reporters.

No defensive metric is perfect for an individual, for sure, and Kadary definitely gets gassed (whether he had COVID, just not used to the college game) that can impact his defensive peak.

It's why I'd want to see a lineup where Bras, Woody and Kadary are on the floor together. Since we aren't an offensive juggernaut, I would LOVE to see us try to see if we can ratchet up the defense, even if it's for like two minutes. Just to see.

Listen, I can insert the JB has forgotten more basketball than I'll ever know line. I get it. But it's not like Buddy and JGIII are seniors this year. There is a chance that they can be the starting backcourt for two more years and that, to be honest, scares me.

I'm also not convinced that a lineup with the three you mentioned would be appreciatively worse offensively. Unlike Buddy and JG, those three guys do not take bad shots which are effectively turnovers (except when Braswell was frustrated in early season garbage time). Braswell recently has shown an ability to make shots from outside as Woody did earlier in the season. Kadary will score in transition at a considerably greater rate than Buddy and JG so his shooting percentage will be higher than it would be if he were just an outside shooter like JG and Buddy to a lesser extent.
The defensive upgrade would obviously be significant.

 

[sutomcat]

Well said again.
It’s usage rate and minutes.

If a player is playing well they deserve a lot of minutes but sorry that standard doesn’t apply to everyone. Which is the overarching point.
Buddy isn’t playing well enough to be the leading team in MPG and shots.

View attachment 195012

This is the whole point.
There is no way Buddy has been our best player.
He has dominated in stretches and played poorly in stretches.
Yet pointing this out makes you a hater.

Just so you know...

What makes you a hater is complaining bitterly about Buddy playing too much and Alan not playing enough regarding a game where Buddy was excellent and Alan was putrid.

 

[Alsacs]

Just so you know...

What makes you a hater is complaining bitterly about Buddy playing too much and Alan not playing enough regarding a game where Buddy was excellent and Alan was putrid.

Yeah that’s it. You don’t get the freaking point.
I will say it again.
Buddy was good yesterday.
Alan wasn’t good.

Alan sat because he played poorly.
The previous game at Pitt Buddy played poorly. He didn’t get treated like Alan and sit down.

Sorry pointing out double standards makes me a hater.

You refuse to see this point.
How about you admit Buddy has played poorly in several games this year and he doesn’t sit when he does.

If you don’t see that as problematic don’t complain when we miss the NCAAT.
Look at the stats.
Who plays the most.
Who shoots the most.

Our best players shoot less and play less.
That isn’t hating. That is pointing out a problem.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Well said again.
It’s usage rate and minutes.

If a player is playing well they deserve a lot of minutes but sorry that standard doesn’t apply to everyone. Which is the overarching point.
Buddy isn’t playing well enough to be the leading team in MPG and shots.

View attachment 195012

This is the whole point.
There is no way Buddy has been our best player.
He has dominated in stretches and played poorly in stretches.
Yet pointing this out makes you a hater.

I'm curious how many other programs have 5 guys averaging +30 minutes a game.

 

[Alsacs]

I'm curious how many other programs have 5 guys averaging +30 minutes a game.

I mean if we had the 2018-2019 Duke roster I wouldn’t mind it.

We don’t have anyone besides Quincy who should be playing like close to 35 MPG.

It’s crazy the gap between 5 and 6, 6 and 7.

 

[TheOrangeBuddha]

I think AG can play better than Buddy and with his skill set, he should play better than Buddy. Sometimes he does. Last night was not one of those times.

Agree AG is not going to play meaningful minutes at guard. But Buddy might play meaningful minutes at forward, and that is what is really being discussed.

I advocate playing the players who play the best. We have some options at guard, forward and center now. Hope JB establishes a regular rotation, but also allocates playing time in part on who is playing well and who is struggling. No one should play 35 minutes regardless of how they are playing.

I could not agree more on your last point, nobody should be playing more than 35 minutes a night. Heck, I would lower that to 30-32 minutes a night. Everyone should be getting a rest. There are 120 minutes at the 1, 2 and 3 spots ... find a way to split those minutes 25-32 minutes each between Richmond, Girard, Boeheim and Griffin. As for the 80 minutes at the 4 and 5, split those between Dolezaj, Guerrier (each between 30-32 m/game) and Edwards, Braswell (each between 10-15 m/game).

We should not continually be in the 320th ranking or lower in bench minutes, like we have for year after year. If "they are not ready" - get them frickin' ready. It is the coaching staff's job.

PS - As others have said, Richmond was by far the best player on the court last night. Not even close. He made the offense work by constantly trying to get into the lane to set up Guerrier down low or our shooters outside ... he got the offense moving AND he was dynamic on the defensive end.

 

[DoctorBombay]

What puzzles me (and I think a few others around here) is why there's so much negativity around Buddy and Joe whether we win or we lose / whether they play well or play poorly. After a game like last night's, when all three of Joe/Buddy/Kadary played well (and played together! - a lineup we really hadn't seen much of before) and we won by 26 - I'm just surprised at how many people are complaining. If you didn't watch the game, you'd think we lost by 15 and that Buddy and Joe combined to go 1-20 from the floor from reading some of these posts.

I can obviously speak only for myself - for the most part, I don't really care who plays and how many minutes each guy gets. When Joe sat for the final 19 minutes against Buffalo while Kadary played (and played really well), I was happy that we got the W. When Joe played the bulk of the minutes 2 games later against Georgetown (and played really well), I was thrilled that we beat the Hoyas. (I hate those guys.) When all 3 guys played together (and played really well) in the blowout win last night - I was on Cloud 9 watching the game and seeing us get back on track.

You may well be right - that if Buddy wasn't JB's son, his role on the team would be much different. But he is JB's son... and JB thinks that his offensive abilities outweigh his defensive shortcomings. We can complain all we want about that (some of us here are better at doing that than others) but none of us here can change that, and the reality is we're probably gonna see Buddy on the court for 30+ minutes more often than not through March 2022 (and maybe beyond). So I choose to hope that Buddy catches fire going forward, and helps us win a bunch of games.

And to be clear, I'm not calling you out for being critical or telling anybody who doesn't share my opinion to shut up. I think some of your posts in recent weeks have been great - I'm a big fan of advanced stats, and you've done a great job sharing some stuff recently that highlight Joe's and Buddy's offensive struggles. Keep it coming and Let's Go Orange!

I agree with almost everything in this post. I just pointed out the highlighted part because I think that's where alot of people get stymied.
Fact is the game and the season are not mutually exclusive occurrences. When I biotche and moan about Buddy's or JG3's playing time, I'm not referencing just a particular game, but a now 2-year JB philosophy that guarantees Buddy plays 36+ minutes, regardless of how he, or who, we play. Before Kadary emerged, JG3 was also seemingly "guaranteed" his 30+ minute stints, until JB was dragged kicking and screaming to start playing him more, which btw was always obvious to anyone paying attention. Same circumstances w/ Marek at the 5 position- another flawed strategy that only now it appears JB is beginning to loosen up on.
Look, we know what we have in our HC. He's stubborn to a tee and has made a career doing it his way. But when the record starts to reflect the flaws in some of his philosophies, as ours has over the last 5-7 years, then the questions have to rightfully be asked.
I have no quarrel w/ BB and JG3 and want them to have as much success as possible- I'm a Syracuse fan so why wouldn't I want that? Their success means OUR success as a team.
However, I believe JB's PT mismanagement tends to hurt more than help. I think he DOES play Buddy too much at the expense of other players who've shown potential like Bras and Woody, and the minutes honestly do not reflect the talent level, nor efficiency statistics as other have shown, to warrant that kinda leeway for him. And I also think it HURTS the team more than helps. The biggest issue is that JB will stick to his guns, and continue this "35 minutes or bust" strategy for Buddy, throughout the entire season. And i think that strategy has proven to be a mistake in the past, and is destined for failure moving forward. JMHO

 

[Alsacs]

I agree with almost everything in this post. I just pointed out the highlighted part because I think that's where alot of people get stymied.
Fact is the game and the season are not mutually exclusive occurrences. When I biotche and moan about Buddy's or JG3's playing time, I'm not referencing just a particular game, but a now 2-year JB philosophy that guarantees Buddy plays 36+ minutes, regardless of how he, or who, we play. Before Kadary, JG3 was also seemingly "guaranteed" his 30+ minute stints, until JB was dragged kicking and screaming to start playing him more, which btw was always obvious to anyone paying attention. Same circumstances w/ Marek at the 5 position- another flawed strategy that only now it appears JB is beginning to loosen up on.
Look, we know what we have in our HC. He's stubborn to a tee and has made a career doing it his way. But when the record starts to reflect the flaws in some of his philosophies, as ours has over the last 5-7 years, then the questions have to rightfully be asked.
I have no quarrel w/ BB and JG3 and want them to have as much success as possible- I'm a Syracuse fan so why wouldn't I want that? Their success means OUR success as a team.
However, I believe JB's PT mismanagement tends to hurt more than help. I think he DOES play Buddy too much at the expense of other players who've shown potential like Bras and Woody, and the minutes honestly do not reflect the talent level, nor efficiency statistics as other have shown, to warrant that kinda leeway for him. And I also think it HURTS the team more than helps. The biggest issue is that JB will stick to his guns, and continue this "35 minutes or bust" strategy for Buddy, throughout the entire season. And i think that strategy has proven to be a mistake in the past, and is destined for failure moving forward. JMHO

Thank you for saying it this way.
It’s not being a hater.
We all want to win.

The HC is bias. Calling that bias out doesn’t make a fan a hater. When the bias can’t even be acknowledged by a decent amount of this fanbase.

 

[malpearl31]

I agree with almost everything in this post. I just pointed out the highlighted part because I think that's where alot of people get stymied.
Fact is the game and the season are not mutually exclusive occurrences. When I biotche and moan about Buddy's or JG3's playing time, I'm not referencing just a particular game, but a now 2-year JB philosophy that guarantees Buddy plays 36+ minutes, regardless of how he, or who, we play. Before Kadary emerged, JG3 was also seemingly "guaranteed" his 30+ minute stints, until JB was dragged kicking and screaming to start playing him more, which btw was always obvious to anyone paying attention. Same circumstances w/ Marek at the 5 position- another flawed strategy that only now it appears JB is beginning to loosen up on.
Look, we know what we have in our HC. He's stubborn to a tee and has made a career doing it his way. But when the record starts to reflect the flaws in some of his philosophies, as ours has over the last 5-7 years, then the questions have to rightfully be asked.
I have no quarrel w/ BB and JG3 and want them to have as much success as possible- I'm a Syracuse fan so why wouldn't I want that? Their success means OUR success as a team.
However, I believe JB's PT mismanagement tends to hurt more than help. I think he DOES play Buddy too much at the expense of other players who've shown potential like Bras and Woody, and the minutes honestly do not reflect the talent level, nor efficiency statistics as other have shown, to warrant that kinda leeway for him. And I also think it HURTS the team more than helps. The biggest issue is that JB will stick to his guns, and continue this "35 minutes or bust" strategy for Buddy, throughout the entire season. And i think that strategy has proven to be a mistake in the past, and is destined for failure moving forward. JMHO

Appreciate the reply. I certainly don't think that JB is above criticism - I totally understand the frustration that you and some other folks have with the short rotation that JB has employed over the last several years. There's plenty of times that I agree with you and wish that JB would go to the bench sooner, or regularly go deeper than 6.5/7 players on most nights.

I think it's fair to come away from last night's game with criticism like "JB should have found a way to get Braswell more minutes" or "JB should have gotten Woody into the game". But the flip side of that coin is that JB did run out some other lineups that performed pretty darn well. The Kadary/Joe/Buddy trio played 16:30 together last night - and they played amazingly well together - +20 for the night! Isn't it just as fair to come away from last night's game thinking "JB did a nice job with the lineups, that 3 guard rotation might help us down the road". Or wouldn't it be fair to observe "It was awesome that JB got 10 minutes of action last night with Marek at the 4 and Jesse at the 5"? That's another lineup that has hardly been seen to this point in the season, but might be needed (especially if Quincy gets into foul trouble). By the way, that duo was +11 in their 10 minutes on the court together.

The way that every thread (including this one) quickly devolves into "Buddy plays too much" is a little bid weird to me. There were plenty of good things to take away from last night. Would be nice if some folks were willing to talk about it a little bit more.

 

[Alsacs]

Appreciate the reply. I certainly don't think that JB is above criticism - I totally understand the frustration that you and some other folks have with the short rotation that JB has employed over the last several years. There's plenty of times that I agree with you and wish that JB would go to the bench sooner, or regularly go deeper than 6.5/7 players on most nights.

I think it's fair to come away from last night's game with criticism like "JB should have found a way to get Braswell more minutes" or "JB should have gotten Woody into the game". But the flip side of that coin is that JB did run out some other lineups that performed pretty darn well. The Kadary/Joe/Buddy trio played 16:30 together last night - and they played amazingly well together - +20 for the night! Isn't it just as fair to come away from last night's game thinking "JB did a nice job with the lineups, that 3 guard rotation might help us down the road". Or wouldn't it be fair to observe "It was awesome that JB got 10 minutes of action last night with Marek at the 4 and Jesse at the 5"? That's another lineup that has hardly been seen to this point in the season, but might be needed (especially if Quincy gets into foul trouble). By the way, that duo was +11 in their 10 minutes on the court together.

The way that every thread (including this one) quickly devolves into "Buddy plays too much" is a little bid weird to me. There were plenty of good things to take away from last night. Would be nice if some folks were willing to talk about it a little bit more.

Listen if things were working and going well I would be defending the wall and being positive.
The issue I addressed and was ignored was players aren’t treated the same.
Buddy played well yesterday.
Griffin didn’t play well yesterday.
So fine sit Griffin.
When Buddy plays poorly he doesn’t get treated like Griffin and sit a majority of the game.
Why?

Buddy plays the most and has struggled numerous game, takes the most shots and has a lower shooting percentage than Guerrier and Griffin.

Also Braswell had been Griffin’s sub and had been doing well recently why did he get jumped by Buddy as the forward sub.

This is the stuff that draws frustration.

A good portion of the fanbase ignores legitimate criticism.
It’s not the kid’s issue it’s the HC’s.
Thus the frustration. MikeSU has broken the numbers down. It’s clear .

Look at the minutes per game for Richmond, and his PER and defensive stats.

 

[malpearl31]

I'll use DBPM and DWS (can get those off sports reference)+ the eye test + aggregate individual stats (ie steals, blocks; especially blocks at the guard position because that's such a unicorn thing to have) + what I see from Cuse reporters.

No defensive metric is perfect for an individual, for sure, and Kadary definitely gets gassed (whether he had COVID, just not used to the college game) that can impact his defensive peak.

It's why I'd want to see a lineup where Bras, Woody and Kadary are on the floor together. Since we aren't an offensive juggernaut, I would LOVE to see us try to see if we can ratchet up the defense, even if it's for like two minutes. Just to see.

Listen, I can insert the JB has forgotten more basketball than I'll ever know line. I get it. But it's not like Buddy and JGIII are seniors this year. There is a chance that they can be the starting backcourt for two more years and that, to be honest, scares me.

Super-detailed explainer on the BPM stats here, btw (for anyone who is interested):

About Box Plus/Minus (BPM) | Basketball-Reference.com

About Box/Plus Minus (BPM)

www.basketball-reference.com

One thing that has always intrigued me about Defensive Rating statistics - specifically with respect to SU - is to what extent the uniqueness of the zone might skew the individual results for SU guards. Case in point: In 2017-18, SU's defense was, by all accounts, amazing. KenPom had us with the 5th best defense in all of D-1. But Tyus Battle's DRtg (according to sports-reference.com) was 103.6 - which is worse than both Buddy and Joe this year (they're checking in at 102.7 and 99.2, respectively). And Frank Howard rated a 101.0 that year - a little worse than Joe this year, but slightly better than Buddy. There's something about those specific numbers that I just don't trust.

I might bite the bullet and pay $19.99 for synergysports.com access so that I can scratch this itch a little more. That price only gets me a month, though... whereas KenPom is $19.99 for an entire year.

 

[malpearl31]

Listen if things were working and going well I would be defending the wall and being positive.
The issue I addressed and was ignored was players aren’t treated the same.
Buddy played well yesterday.
Griffin didn’t play well yesterday.
So fine sit Griffin.
When Buddy plays poorly he doesn’t get treated like Griffin and sit a majority of the game.
Why?

Buddy plays the most and has struggled numerous game, takes the most shots and has a lower shooting percentage than Guerrier and Griffin.

Also Braswell had been Griffin’s sub and had been doing well recently why did he get jumped by Buddy as the forward sub.

This is the stuff that draws frustration.

A good portion of the fanbase ignores legitimate criticism.
It’s not the kid’s issue it’s the HC’s.
Thus the frustration. MikeSU has broken the numbers down. It’s clear .

Look at the minutes per game for Richmond, and his PER and defensive stats.

I think there are legitimate explanations/answers to just about all of your questions/observations above. But I don't think you'll like or agree with many of them.

Why does JB treat Alan and Buddy differently? I'm sure part of it is because Buddy is his son. And part of it is probably because JB has less tolerance for the inexplicable, sloppy turnovers that Alan has had recently. JB can answer better than me, maybe we can get someone to call in to the radio show on Thursday and ask him point-blank.

Regarding shots and percentages and playing time... the offense is definitely geared more towards perimeter play this year (and the last few years), but Quincy has put up more shots than both Buddy and Alan in the last 3 games (47 for Q, 43 for Buddy, 38 for Alan... and keep in mind that FG attempts don't tell the whole story if you get to the FT line more, which Quincy does). Quincy has been really good recently - and the entire team appears to be making a more concerted effort to get him the ball.

• In the last 5 games, Alan Griffin is 28-64 (43.8%) from the field. 18-32 (56.3%) from 2-pt range and 10-32 (31.3%) from 3-pt range.
• In the last 5 games, Buddy Boeheim is 32-73 (43.8%) from the field. 19-32 (59.4%) from 2-pt range and 13-41 (31.7%) from 3-pt range.
• In the last 5 games, Quincy Guerrier is 29-60 (48.3%) from the field. 25-43 (58.1%) from 2-pt range and 4-17 (23.5%) from 3-pt range.

Guards typically shoot for lower percentages than forwards/centers, so the fact that Buddy and Alan are shooting worse than Quincy isn't that big a deal to me. I'm actually pretty impressed by how well Alan and Buddy have shot from inside the arc.

Why did Buddy jump Braswell in the rotation at the forward spot last night? Again, that's really a question for JB - but it's reasonable to draw the conclusion that either (a) JB thought that Buddy had a better matchup against Miami's D, or (b) JB wanted to get a look at Buddy/Joe/Kadary all on the floor together at the same time. Or maybe it was a combination of both (a) and (b).

Last night, things were working and going quite well - and yet you've spent most of the day being very critical - even going so far as to completely misrepresent Buddy's contribution to the 23-3 first half run in another thread.

You have every right to focus on the negative if that's what you want to do. Please don't interpret this as me telling you to stop complaining or to shut up. Some of us just find it a little bit weird and annoying that the analysis always seems to begin and ends at "too much Buddy".

 

[Alsacs]

I think there are legitimate explanations/answers to just about all of your questions/observations above. But I don't think you'll like or agree with many of them.

Why does JB treat Alan and Buddy differently? I'm sure part of it is because Buddy is his son. And part of it is probably because JB has less tolerance for the inexplicable, sloppy turnovers that Alan has had recently. JB can answer better than me, maybe we can get someone to call in to the radio show on Thursday and ask him point-blank.

Regarding shots and percentages and playing time... the offense is definitely geared more towards perimeter play this year (and the last few years), but Quincy has put up more shots than both Buddy and Alan in the last 3 games (47 for Q, 43 for Buddy, 38 for Alan... and keep in mind that FG attempts don't tell the whole story if you get to the FT line more, which Quincy does). Quincy has been really good recently - and the entire team appears to be making a more concerted effort to get him the ball.

• In the last 5 games, Alan Griffin is 28-64 (43.8%) from the field. 18-32 (56.3%) from 2-pt range and 10-32 (31.3%) from 3-pt range.
• In the last 5 games, Buddy Boeheim is 32-73 (43.8%) from the field. 19-32 (59.4%) from 2-pt range and 13-41 (31.7%) from 3-pt range.
• In the last 5 games, Quincy Guerrier is 29-60 (48.3%) from the field. 25-43 (58.1%) from 2-pt range and 4-17 (23.5%) from 3-pt range.

Guards typically shoot for lower percentages than forwards/centers, so the fact that Buddy and Alan are shooting worse than Quincy isn't that big a deal to me. I'm actually pretty impressed by how well Alan and Buddy have shot from inside the arc.

Why did Buddy jump Braswell in the rotation at the forward spot last night? Again, that's really a question for JB - but it's reasonable to draw the conclusion that either (a) JB thought that Buddy had a better matchup against Miami's D, or (b) JB wanted to get a look at Buddy/Joe/Kadary all on the floor together at the same time. Or maybe it was a combination of both (a) and (b).

Last night, things were working and going quite well - and yet you've spent most of the day being very critical - even going so far as to completely misrepresent Buddy's contribution to the 23-3 first half run in another thread.

You have every right to focus on the negative if that's what you want to do. Please don't interpret this as me telling you to stop complaining or to shut up. Some of us just find it a little bit weird and annoying that the analysis always seems to begin and ends at "too much Buddy".

We can agree to disagree you gave a fair argument.
Thus no reason to nitpik it.

I want to win. I am frustrated because I don’t see a path back to relevance with this roster and we don’t have any guard commits.
Thus scrutiny for the incumbents becomes higher.
If we had a Jonny Flynn or Tyler Ennis commit coming in for next the frustration would be less.
We had a 2022 5 star commit we lost. We lost our top 2022 SG target to Ohio State.

If we want to be relevant we need better talent.
It’s not personal.

However I respect the fact you gave a fair counter.

 

[MikeSU02]

I think there are legitimate explanations/answers to just about all of your questions/observations above. But I don't think you'll like or agree with many of them.

Why does JB treat Alan and Buddy differently? I'm sure part of it is because Buddy is his son. And part of it is probably because JB has less tolerance for the inexplicable, sloppy turnovers that Alan has had recently. JB can answer better than me, maybe we can get someone to call in to the radio show on Thursday and ask him point-blank.

Regarding shots and percentages and playing time... the offense is definitely geared more towards perimeter play this year (and the last few years), but Quincy has put up more shots than both Buddy and Alan in the last 3 games (47 for Q, 43 for Buddy, 38 for Alan... and keep in mind that FG attempts don't tell the whole story if you get to the FT line more, which Quincy does). Quincy has been really good recently - and the entire team appears to be making a more concerted effort to get him the ball.

• In the last 5 games, Alan Griffin is 28-64 (43.8%) from the field. 18-32 (56.3%) from 2-pt range and 10-32 (31.3%) from 3-pt range.
• In the last 5 games, Buddy Boeheim is 32-73 (43.8%) from the field. 19-32 (59.4%) from 2-pt range and 13-41 (31.7%) from 3-pt range.
• In the last 5 games, Quincy Guerrier is 29-60 (48.3%) from the field. 25-43 (58.1%) from 2-pt range and 4-17 (23.5%) from 3-pt range.

Guards typically shoot for lower percentages than forwards/centers, so the fact that Buddy and Alan are shooting worse than Quincy isn't that big a deal to me. I'm actually pretty impressed by how well Alan and Buddy have shot from inside the arc.

Why did Buddy jump Braswell in the rotation at the forward spot last night? Again, that's really a question for JB - but it's reasonable to draw the conclusion that either (a) JB thought that Buddy had a better matchup against Miami's D, or (b) JB wanted to get a look at Buddy/Joe/Kadary all on the floor together at the same time. Or maybe it was a combination of both (a) and (b).

Last night, things were working and going quite well - and yet you've spent most of the day being very critical - even going so far as to completely misrepresent Buddy's contribution to the 23-3 first half run in another thread.

You have every right to focus on the negative if that's what you want to do. Please don't interpret this as me telling you to stop complaining or to shut up. Some of us just find it a little bit weird and annoying that the analysis always seems to begin and ends at "too much Buddy".

One note on this, Buddy filled up the stats in the 2H against Miami. He was shot hunting. Not all buckets are the same. I think we all saw that the real change in the game came when Buddy sat and Kadary came in and JGIII looked like he was enjoying basketball for the first time in a while.

Q getting more shots the last three games is the very lowest adjustment we can make and you can wonder if it was due to Buddy/JGIII recovering from COVID now that we know they had it.

And, again, Bras is a better defender than Buddy and AG.

The biggest issue with AG isn't his talent. He is plainly more talented than Buddy. The issue with AG is going to be him auditioning for the NBA and just playing to his own tune. He can wreck our momentum in three offensive sets more so than anyone else on the team because he'll go off the rails.

BTW, the numbers you have, and let's say the last five games will be more indicative of year-to-date, it means that Buddy and AG are shooting terribly from three (and Q should forget even attempting them) and that JB is plainly wrong about how much shooting we should be doing from outside.

I'll still put money that I'm right and the full year numbers dictate where we our strengths land.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Saying AG "can't dribble" is an enormous exaggeration, frankly, even though I understand why it's easy to say that. He can dribble. He tries too much to dribble through people or too far in front of his body and he loses focus too easily. Has to just slow down. I expect him to get much better. He absolutely can dribble the ball well enough in a secondary role up the court if he was playing 2G. Of many things I would be concerned with, a lineup of Kadary/AG/Marek getting it across half court is not one at the top of my list.

 

[SUbear]

This doesn’t really answer the question if you believe the standard JB has set is based on if someone is playing well

JB thinks they are playing well,and since they both are recovering from covid I will bet he knows more about their abilities than you.