My thoughts (sorry for the length) | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

My thoughts (sorry for the length)

A reasonable expectation for this program is to win 4 ACC games and 2-3 OOC games (strength of OOC dependent).

And to be competitive in all our games, even against the top teams. Sure, there will be a dud here and there, especially on the road against a top team. But 3 duds in a row, with a bye week mixed in is unacceptable.

So technically, we could meet the first two expectations. The third one is gone. Whether we think it's right or wrong, Wildhack isn't making a move until it's at least clear we'll have a losing record in the ACC.

If we lose to BC at home, I don't know how he stays silent about it.
I really thought some people were out of their minds suggesting we'd go 0-5 down the stretch. And although I said in the prediction thread that nothing would surprise me... I was surprised at how completely inept we were last night.

I don't know why we spent the money to make the trip. Seriously. It was clear that no one on the team wanted to be there, or had any intention of making a real effort. It was mind blowing.

0-5 is legitimately on the table. Since we have a couple home games left we may steal one of them. But I'd be stunned if we win 2 and make a bowl. Even if we do, so what? 6-6 against this schedule is awful, and no one is going to attend a bowl game to see this garbage. It'll be literally a friends and family crowd.

I agree that, if pressed right now, JW is going to talk about process and getting better and still being able to achieve our goals, etc. But he has to know it's over, he's no dummy.
 
I think you have to wait until bowl eligibility is off the table. ADJW said that was the measuring stick so no matter how optimistic it seems, he would lose credibility in the next coaches view if he went back on his word. And firing him in mid November still gives us a jump on the next coach. In fact, I’m sure ADJW is plotting out his next move.
 
I think you have to wait until bowl eligibility is off the table. ADJW said that was the measuring stick so no matter how optimistic it seems, he would lose credibility in the next coaches view if he went back on his word. And firing him in mid November still gives us a jump on the next coach. In fact, I’m sure ADJW is plotting out his next move.

And what if we never have 7 Ls? What if we go 6-6? You brining him back next season? If the answer is No, then there is no point in waiting. If the answer is Yes, I am now a casual SU FB fan. You have lost me (and many others) for good.
 
Why fire him after Pitt if we can still go 6-6? What if we split the two? Then what?

If the decision has been made to fire Dino, there is no reason to wait. If the decision hasn't been made yet, we have bigger problems than Dino.
Not really looking to debate just seemed reasonable to me from what the original poster said.
Maybe ask him
 
And what if we never have 7 Ls? What if we go 6-6? You brining him back next season? If the answer is No, then there is no point in waiting. If the answer is Yes, I am now a casual SU FB fan. You have lost me (and many others) for good.
Based on what I saw the last month, if he turns this around and gets 2 more wins, he’s a magician. Don’t see any chance of that happening.
 
Why fire him after Pitt if we can still go 6-6? What if we split the two? Then what?

If the decision has been made to fire Dino, there is no reason to wait. If the decision hasn't been made yet, we have bigger problems than Dino.
Because those are theoretically two winnable "home" games against our two biggest rivals in the conference. If he wins both he gets to coach out the year and see what happens. If he doesn't then fire him.
 
I'm in the camp that proposes that whatever Wildhack has said about the job standards are irrelevant.

It's college football. It's a cut throat world. Coaches get fired all the time. It's a common end.

Wildhack, the BOT, whoever is involved, has more than enough reason to move.
 
I think you have to wait until bowl eligibility is off the table. ADJW said that was the measuring stick so no matter how optimistic it seems, he would lose credibility in the next coaches view if he went back on his word.
I don't believe that.

I know football coaches can be meatheads, but they understand how the business they're inworks.
 
I think you have to wait until bowl eligibility is off the table. ADJW said that was the measuring stick so no matter how optimistic it seems, he would lose credibility in the next coaches view if he went back on his word. And firing him in mid November still gives us a jump on the next coach. In fact, I’m sure ADJW is plotting out his next move.
I see your point, but any potential coach that doesn't understand the direction of the program and in particular what happened last night was totally unacceptable is probably not someone I would want on my list anyway,
 
Because those are theoretically two winnable "home" games against our two biggest rivals in the conference. If he wins both he gets to coach out the year and see what happens. If he doesn't then fire him.

1. What gives us a better chance at this point in winning those games? Status quo or a shakeup?

2. "See what happens" what does that mean? This is a long term decision we need to make. If that costs us a win or two this year who gives a flying eph? Now is not the time to think short term.


Dino deserves nothing at this point. He should be fired no matter what happens the rest of the year.
 
I don't believe that.

I know football coaches can be meatheads, but they understand how the business they're inworks.

I see your point, but any potential coach that doesn't understand the direction of the program and in particular what happened last night was totally unacceptable is probably not someone I would want on my list anyway,
Precisely. Coaches are motivated by money, power and ego. No one is going to care at all about how Dino's firing was handled.
 
1. What gives us a better chance at this point in winning those games? Status quo or a shakeup?

2. "See what happens" what does that mean? This is a long term decision we need to make. If that costs us a win or two this year who gives a flying eph? Now is not the time to think short term.


Dino deserves nothing at this point. He should be fired no matter what happens the rest of the year.
You're absolutely right.
 
Anyone who has read my posts over the past few years knows I got off the Dino band wagon long ago. However, given that his boss thought otherwise, I wanted Dino to succeed…but ONLY because I wanted SU to succeed.

Under normal circumstances, I would expect JW to be working the phones and lining up his next coach even as we speak. At an SU, you figure we would wait until the end of the season to pull the plug, but there are a whole bunch of factors at play.

A couple of weeks ago, I posted our ACC record by year under Dino as well as his aggregate record in the ACC. It was putrid. Even I was surprised at exactly how putrid. That alone would be enough to stop the bleeding right now. Toss in our national embarrassment the past four games and it seems an obvious call.

JW also must realize what a corner he has painted himself into. He hitched his wagon to a guy he didn’t hire and, by extension, hitched himself to the conference doormat. Hey, I understand the whole contract thing. At the time, throwing $$$ at Dino after 10-wins seemed to be the obvious call. It didn’t work out and now JW is stuck owning the mess.

JW also hinted that his expectation for this year was a bowl game. He is in a bind on that one as well, because now he almost has to wait and see how it plays out. All of that despite the malaise and rot that has infected the program.

Dino was a journeyman assistant coach. He got hired as a head coach at two low level programs. At each one, he had two nice years, largely with guys he didn’t recruit (sound familiar?), and moved on before ever establishing that he was capable of building a program.

He has now had 8 years at SU and has not built a program here either. What he HAS built is a tradition of sucking in the ACC.

I’ve heard all the excuses. I won’t repeat them, except for one.

“Um…we would have to rebuild if we fired Dino!”

That’s the point. Things won’t get better UNTIL we rebuild and we can’t rebuild until we start the process.

A successful business doesn’t throw big money at a guy who has shown he can’t handle the job. The question NEVER is “but who else could we get?” Any AD worth his salt should be confident that he can find someone better, or he shouldn’t be AD.

The question ALWAYS is “does the current guy’s performance merit his salary and the investment we have made in him?”

It is time for JW to answer that question.

Anyone who has read my posts over the past few years knows I got off the Dino band wagon long ago. However, given that his boss thought otherwise, I wanted Dino to succeed…but ONLY because I wanted SU to succeed.

Under normal circumstances, I would expect JW to be working the phones and lining up his next coach even as we speak. At an SU, you figure we would wait until the end of the season to pull the plug, but there are a whole bunch of factors at play.

A couple of weeks ago, I posted our ACC record by year under Dino as well as his aggregate record in the ACC. It was putrid. Even I was surprised at exactly how putrid. That alone would be enough to stop the bleeding right now. Toss in our national embarrassment the past four games and it seems an obvious call.

JW also must realize what a corner he has painted himself into. He hitched his wagon to a guy he didn’t hire and, by extension, hitched himself to the conference doormat. Hey, I understand the whole contract thing. At the time, throwing $$$ at Dino after 10-wins seemed to be the obvious call. It didn’t work out and now JW is stuck owning the mess.

JW also hinted that his expectation for this year was a bowl game. He is in a bind on that one as well, because now he almost has to wait and see how it plays out. All of that despite the malaise and rot that has infected the program.

Dino was a journeyman assistant coach. He got hired as a head coach at two low level programs. At each one, he had two nice years, largely with guys he didn’t recruit (sound familiar?), and moved on before ever establishing that he was capable of building a program.

He has now had 8 years at SU and has not built a program here either. What he HAS built is a tradition of sucking in the ACC.

I’ve heard all the excuses. I won’t repeat them, except for one.

“Um…we would have to rebuild if we fired Dino!”

That’s the point. Things won’t get better UNTIL we rebuild and we can’t rebuild until we start the process.

A successful business doesn’t throw big money at a guy who has shown he can’t handle the job. The question NEVER is “but who else could we get?” Any AD worth his salt should be confident that he can find someone better, or he shouldn’t be AD.

The question ALWAYS is “does the current guy’s performance merit his salary and the investment we have made in him?”

It is time for JW to answer that question.
Dick, You have clearly made very good points. It's all in the family. I want to add my two cents. Dino's daughter married Koda Martin, an offensive lineman at Texas A&M. Koda transferred to SU in 2018 and played his senior season for the Orange. Had a good season.

Dino hires Koda's Dad Kirk, a legendary HS coach to be SU's QB coach. Sounds like a great move. Kirk knows Texas high school football and can recruit Texas big time. Kirk is the qb coach for two years and as far as I can see never recruited a single player from Texas to SU. In 2020 Kirk becomes an analyst for the team.

About recruiting, if you are a football coach in the northeast you have to recruit New Jersey, duh. Even at last night's game at Va Tech, the player who killed us was a running back from South Jersey. They NFL is loaded with players who live within 50 miles of my home in South Jersey.
 
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Excellent post Dick. If Dino wins 2 more and gets a bowl, that’s a successful season in the AD’s eyes, and we are stuck with Dino ball for another year. I just can’t stand the thought of that..
After the past four games, I don’t see two wins. All four teams left have shown they have a competent offense. SU is a complete trainwreck.
 
After the past four games, I don’t see two wins. All four teams left have shown they have a competent offense. SU is a complete trainwreck.
I don’t see two more wins either. But what if Dino pulls a rabbit out his A.$$?
JW said that is the measuring stick. Dino has had8 years. We still have nothing. I wanted him gone 2 years ago….but money. Even at 6 wins against this schedule, he should be fired. They fired Pasqualoni when he made a bowl game
 
if we had an Oline this team would be functional.. We are going on like 30 yrs without an Oline thats been solid more than a yr or so.. Thats really hard to fathom at any school.
 
I don’t see two more wins either. But what if Dino pulls a rabbit out his A.$$?
JW said that is the measuring stick. Dino has had8 years. We still have nothing. I wanted him gone 2 years ago….but money. Even at 6 wins against this schedule, he should be fired. They fired Pasqualoni when he made a bowl game

Not what I want JW to do nor what I think he Should do, but rather what I think he WILL do...

If Dino miraculously wins the last 4, he gets a (hopefully small) extension. If he gets to Loss #7, he is gone. It is the gray areas in-between where it gets harder to predict. If he gets 6...which would give him yet another 2-6 ACC record, it may come down to the bowl result and what the boosters want. Again, not what I want, but trying to read the tea leaves. If we are 5-6 going into Wake, JW could pull the plug regardless of the bowl.

7-5? He will likely be safe. However, if he loses the bowl game, who knows.

We know about JW's bowl metric, but we don't know any other metrics that he has. I like JW, but ever since he didn't unretire #44, I have long since given up trying to figure out what he is thinking.

I almost turned the game off on Thursday. I have never done that before. Heck, I sat on the cold, wet Archbold steps in pouring rain during Ben's "declining years" and never once left early. All my friends did...or the few friends that cared about SU football at that time... but Dick_in_Watson Hall did not. But there was no fire in the team or in Dino on Thursday, and our gameplan seemed to have been designed by a random MAC coach off the street. Which in a sense it sort of was...

I want us to get to 8-4. I still won't be happy about Dino, but I'll be happy about SU. I have no faith that we will get there or even to 7-5, but I never root for us to lose nor do I stop caring. This season, I mean. If we finish 6-6 and Dino is extended, then I may well stop caring about the results one millisecond after each game is over next season. That will be solely due to the message that SU will have sent me, however.
 
if we had an Oline this team would be functional.. We are going on like 30 yrs without an Oline thats been solid more than a yr or so.. Thats really hard to fathom at any school.

We had 2011-15 which were fine. Dino's OLs have been a mess.
 
Not what I want JW to do nor what I think he Should do, but rather what I think he WILL do...

If Dino miraculously wins the last 4, he gets a (hopefully small) extension. If he gets to Loss #7, he is gone. It is the gray areas in-between where it gets harder to predict. If he gets 6...which would give him yet another 2-6 ACC record, it may come down to the bowl result and what the boosters want. Again, not what I want, but trying to read the tea leaves. If we are 5-6 going into Wake, JW could pull the plug regardless of the bowl.

7-5? He will likely be safe. However, if he loses the bowl game, who knows.

We know about JW's bowl metric, but we don't know any other metrics that he has. I like JW, but ever since he didn't unretire #44, I have long since given up trying to figure out what he is thinking.

I almost turned the game off on Thursday. I have never done that before. Heck, I sat on the cold, wet Archbold steps in pouring rain during Ben's "declining years" and never once left early. All my friends did...or the few friends that cared about SU football at that time... but Dick_in_Watson Hall did not. But there was no fire in the team or in Dino on Thursday, and our gameplan seemed to have been designed by a random MAC coach off the street. Which in a sense it sort of was...

I want us to get to 8-4. I still won't be happy about Dino, but I'll be happy about SU. I have no faith that we will get there or even to 7-5, but I never root for us to lose nor do I stop caring. This season, I mean. If we finish 6-6 and Dino is extended, then I may well stop caring about the results one millisecond after each game is over next season. That will be solely due to the message that SU will have sent me, however.

SU FB Diehard fans are dwindling in numbers. And it will be nearly impossible to get them back given the current CFB landscape. I have never seen so much apathy toward SU FB among friends and I am on the brink of joining them.

If we are 7-4 going into Wake I can understand Dino being invited back for 2024 even if we lose that game closely. I won't like it, but I can understand it. However if we lose that game in typical Dino fashion, I am handing in my SU FB Diehard card. I can no longer put in the effort, time, money. I will go to 1-2 home games a year and watch the other games on TV if I have nothing else to do.

Additionally if we are 6-5 going into Wake and blow them away, I can understand bringing Dino back. Again I won't like it though. If we win a ho hum game, and he is brought back... count me as a casual fan. Ditto if we lose, even a close game.

After what we have had to watch over the past 25 years, it isn't fair to the fanbase to force us to watch another year of Dino. And the next HC will need a few years of success to build up any good will. That is assuming SU gets the next hire right.
 
I find it hard to believe that the BOT is ok with the Syracuse brand and name being embarrassed and dragged through the mud repeatedly on National TV. Take the fact that we all run promo commercials about how great all of our schools are during televised games. Those promos say "come to our school" So if we look like we don't care on the football field it goes against the message of who we are.
Also, when we appear on national TV, it reaches many alumni who are far away from campus. This can affect the general donation pool. Do you want your alumni to be proud and pull out the credit card, or do you want them to feel ill? Feelings have a direct correlation to giving.
Doing well on National TV also brings students to campus. They want the spirit experience. You get a better, and higher achieving student when you look good.
 
Anyone who has read my posts over the past few years knows I got off the Dino band wagon long ago. However, given that his boss thought otherwise, I wanted Dino to succeed…but ONLY because I wanted SU to succeed.

Under normal circumstances, I would expect JW to be working the phones and lining up his next coach even as we speak. At an SU, you figure we would wait until the end of the season to pull the plug, but there are a whole bunch of factors at play.

A couple of weeks ago, I posted our ACC record by year under Dino as well as his aggregate record in the ACC. It was putrid. Even I was surprised at exactly how putrid. That alone would be enough to stop the bleeding right now. Toss in our national embarrassment the past four games and it seems an obvious call.

JW also must realize what a corner he has painted himself into. He hitched his wagon to a guy he didn’t hire and, by extension, hitched himself to the conference doormat. Hey, I understand the whole contract thing. At the time, throwing $$$ at Dino after 10-wins seemed to be the obvious call. It didn’t work out and now JW is stuck owning the mess.

JW also hinted that his expectation for this year was a bowl game. He is in a bind on that one as well, because now he almost has to wait and see how it plays out. All of that despite the malaise and rot that has infected the program.

Dino was a journeyman assistant coach. He got hired as a head coach at two low level programs. At each one, he had two nice years, largely with guys he didn’t recruit (sound familiar?), and moved on before ever establishing that he was capable of building a program.

He has now had 8 years at SU and has not built a program here either. What he HAS built is a tradition of sucking in the ACC.

I’ve heard all the excuses. I won’t repeat them, except for one.

“Um…we would have to rebuild if we fired Dino!”

That’s the point. Things won’t get better UNTIL we rebuild and we can’t rebuild until we start the process.

A successful business doesn’t throw big money at a guy who has shown he can’t handle the job. The question NEVER is “but who else could we get?” Any AD worth his salt should be confident that he can find someone better, or he shouldn’t be AD.

The question ALWAYS is “does the current guy’s performance merit his salary and the investment we have made in him?”

It is time for JW to answer that question.

"Dino was a journeyman assistant coach. He got hired as a head coach at two low level programs. At each one, he had two nice years, largely with guys he didn’t recruit (sound familiar?), and moved on before ever establishing that he was capable of building a program."

EIU was 2-9 the last two years under Bob Spoo, then went 7-5 in Dino's first eyar and 12-2 in his second. That's pretty good. They went 5-7 the year after he left. BG was 8-5 and 10-4 the last two years under Clawson, then 8-6 and 10-4 under Dino. The year after he left they were 4-8, then 2-10. They haven't had a winning record since. That suggests that Dino did a good job coaching those teams.

I think his problems here have to do with not developing good offensive lines or accumulating depth. The latter may have more to do with the school. Doug Marrone showed that you can build a good offensive line at this school. Dino hasn't done it.
 
Not what I want JW to do nor what I think he Should do, but rather what I think he WILL do...

If Dino miraculously wins the last 4, he gets a (hopefully small) extension. If he gets to Loss #7, he is gone. It is the gray areas in-between where it gets harder to predict. If he gets 6...which would give him yet another 2-6 ACC record, it may come down to the bowl result and what the boosters want. Again, not what I want, but trying to read the tea leaves. If we are 5-6 going into Wake, JW could pull the plug regardless of the bowl.

7-5? He will likely be safe. However, if he loses the bowl game, who knows.

We know about JW's bowl metric, but we don't know any other metrics that he has. I like JW, but ever since he didn't unretire #44, I have long since given up trying to figure out what he is thinking.

I almost turned the game off on Thursday. I have never done that before. Heck, I sat on the cold, wet Archbold steps in pouring rain during Ben's "declining years" and never once left early. All my friends did...or the few friends that cared about SU football at that time... but Dick_in_Watson Hall did not. But there was no fire in the team or in Dino on Thursday, and our gameplan seemed to have been designed by a random MAC coach off the street. Which in a sense it sort of was...

I want us to get to 8-4. I still won't be happy about Dino, but I'll be happy about SU. I have no faith that we will get there or even to 7-5, but I never root for us to lose nor do I stop caring. This season, I mean. If we finish 6-6 and Dino is extended, then I may well stop caring about the results one millisecond after each game is over next season. That will be solely due to the message that SU will have sent me, however.
I’m pretty sure a potential bowl game result won’t be a factor in Dino’s future. A school like ours has to make a go/no-go decision on their HC right as the regular season concludes. Waiting beyond that means you miss out on HC candidates and staff.

We did that in 2004 and it was an epic disaster.
 
That is another reason why you fire him now. Why even give Dino the chance to put you in that situation? The worst thing that can happen is we go 2-2 or 3-1 to end the season. Dino is not the long term answer. The longer you keep him, the bigger to hole the next guy has to dig out of. Why kick the can down the road to next year? The decision is obvious so why wait?
Absolutely agree. The team has obviously quit on him but that was after Dino quit on them game week before FSU with his woah is me comments and playing not to get blown out. If we go down to BC at home that is the perfect time to get the inevitable over with.

I don’t fault JW for giving Dino an extension after 2018. We would have been stupid not. I wonder how serious Dino was considering other offers for him to get such an extension . Remember him being tied to USC LOL!!

Even going into this season i still had faith he could be successful and that 8 years had stabilized the program. I’ll throw out the 2020 COIVD season, but in 2021 we finished 5-7 with 3 straight 3 point losses to Clemson/FSU/WF (who was ranked). In each game Dino had a serious game mgt F ups that contributed to the losses.

Then there was last year. We all know about the 6-0 start with 7-0 within grasp at Clemson, only to lose 6 straight before beating BC to close out the season. For someone who preaches consistency we are the exact opposite.

We all know we are up against it talent wise so the amount of non-hustle, mental lapse, penalties we have stacked up during his time and his unwillingness to address it with his out of this world reasoning is extremely troubling. Combine that with being one of the all-time bad game managers the uphill battle we are already fighting is just compounded.

The final indictment is his inability to identify talent, specifically on the offensive side of the ball. Some of his early success was under a Sean Lewis offense with Shafer recruits Ish, Erv, Curtis, and transfer AET. Since Lewis has left what WR’s has Babers recruited? Obviously, Gadsen is by far the best, but the next best is probably Taj Harris, which is embarrassing in 8 years. Same goes for RB. He stumbled onto Sean Tucker and Lequint who plays hard. Otherwise he insisted on running Jawhar Jordan up the middle and has an obsession of running his bell cow into the ground. For the absolute easiest position to recruit, only having 3 good RB recruits, including 1 who left after a year, it’s been an embarrassment. Same goes for QB. Luckily he inherited Dungey and should leave millions in his will to ED. Otherwise who has he recruited?

I realize Purdue is not that good but i was impressed by how hard the guys played and everyone flying around the field. That is a far cry from what we have witnessed the last 3 weeks which tells me the team has quit on Babers and i don’t blame him after his bizarre press conferences the week leading up to FSU, and the stall ball playing not to get blown out. This doesn’t even include our lack of an offensive identity. I think Babers wants to be a running team but they are using Shrader as a pocket passer instead of playing to his strengths which is running the ball. If he gets hurt then so be it. At least he would be playing to his strengths. We obviously don’t have anyone behind him and we will need to find a starting QB from the portal. This is why he needs to be fired asap and be ready to go once the portal opens. Letting him coach out the season does absolutely nothing for the program. Time for Wildhack to make a move or he can go as well.
 
Anyone who has read my posts over the past few years knows I got off the Dino band wagon long ago. However, given that his boss thought otherwise, I wanted Dino to succeed…but ONLY because I wanted SU to succeed.

Under normal circumstances, I would expect JW to be working the phones and lining up his next coach even as we speak. At an SU, you figure we would wait until the end of the season to pull the plug, but there are a whole bunch of factors at play.

A couple of weeks ago, I posted our ACC record by year under Dino as well as his aggregate record in the ACC. It was putrid. Even I was surprised at exactly how putrid. That alone would be enough to stop the bleeding right now. Toss in our national embarrassment the past four games and it seems an obvious call.

JW also must realize what a corner he has painted himself into. He hitched his wagon to a guy he didn’t hire and, by extension, hitched himself to the conference doormat. Hey, I understand the whole contract thing. At the time, throwing $$$ at Dino after 10-wins seemed to be the obvious call. It didn’t work out and now JW is stuck owning the mess.

JW also hinted that his expectation for this year was a bowl game. He is in a bind on that one as well, because now he almost has to wait and see how it plays out. All of that despite the malaise and rot that has infected the program.

Dino was a journeyman assistant coach. He got hired as a head coach at two low level programs. At each one, he had two nice years, largely with guys he didn’t recruit (sound familiar?), and moved on before ever establishing that he was capable of building a program.

He has now had 8 years at SU and has not built a program here either. What he HAS built is a tradition of sucking in the ACC.

I’ve heard all the excuses. I won’t repeat them, except for one.

“Um…we would have to rebuild if we fired Dino!”

That’s the point. Things won’t get better UNTIL we rebuild and we can’t rebuild until we start the process.

A successful business doesn’t throw big money at a guy who has shown he can’t handle the job. The question NEVER is “but who else could we get?” Any AD worth his salt should be confident that he can find someone better, or he shouldn’t be AD.

The question ALWAYS is “does the current guy’s performance merit his salary and the investment we have made in him?”

It is time for JW to answer that question.
We could win the 2 games without Dino. Actually would probably have a better chance at it. End this now & start a well publicized national search. Beat everyone else to the punch. Get the best young up and Comer. And, win the 2 games.
 

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