NCAA, conferences sued over scholarships

[Full_Rebar]

I was incorrect about Pell Grant (but so where those articles in saying that football players are "making" money) as it can be used beyond grant in aid up to cost of attendance-here is the NCAA bylaw. I'm not comfortable in assuming that a "majority" of D1 football players receive Pell Grants.

15.1 Maximum Limit on Financial Aid—individual.
A student-athlete shall not be eligible to participate in intercollegiate athletics if he or she receives financial aid that exceeds the value of the cost of attendance as defined in Bylaw 15.02.2. A student-athlete may receive institutional financial aid based on athletics ability (per Bylaw 15.02.4.1) and educational expenses awarded per Bylaw 15.2.6.4 up to the value of a full grant-in-aid, plus any other financial aid up to the cost of attendance.

 

[xc84]

I was incorrect about Pell Grant (but so where those articles in saying that football players are "making" money) as it can be used beyond grant in aid up to cost of attendance-here is the NCAA bylaw. I'm not comfortable in assuming that a "majority" of D1 football players receive Pell Grants.

15.1 Maximum Limit on Financial Aid—individual.
A student-athlete shall not be eligible to participate in intercollegiate athletics if he or she receives financial aid that exceeds the value of the cost of attendance as defined in Bylaw 15.02.2. A student-athlete may receive institutional financial aid based on athletics ability (per Bylaw 15.02.4.1) and educational expenses awarded per Bylaw 15.2.6.4 up to the value of a full grant-in-aid, plus any other financial aid up to the cost of attendance.

I think you would agree than many football players come from low-income families and as a result get Pell grants. I am comfortable assuming a majority do but that's just a hunch.

As for financial aid up the to "cost of attendance", that cost includes the kitchen sink. You want them to get more than the cost of attendance?

 

[Full_Rebar]

Yes, as a matter of fact I do want them to get more than the cost of attendance. The average salary of D1 football head coaches is higher than NFL head coaches. The NCAA president made 7 figures. D1 AD salaries are into the high six figures (some receiving over $1 mil). It's time to provide a bit more to the people who are the reason all of these other folks are cashing in.

 

[IthacaMatt]

You are not following his own argument. He claims free market so he is subject to it. That the NCAA may regulate parts of that market is immaterial. The school could offer no scholarship, a partial scholarship, or a full scholarship. He could have skipped signing or signed with another school, he chose WVU.

Free market does not mean that every detail is negotiated, ex.: cell phone service.

Further, he could have accepted an academic scholarship (we will assume he was actually college material in spite of his selection) at a Div. III school. This fact alone throws a serious wrinkle into his claims.

If no schools offer full cost of attendance scholarships, then how is that not collusion ? Where is the free market option to get a true full ride from another school , or the ability to turn pro?

 

[xc84]

If no schools offer full cost of attendance scholarships, then how is that not collusion ? Where is the free market option to get a true full ride from another school , or the ability to turn pro?

The NCAA has no jurisdiction over when a player can try to get a pro team to play for his services. Without affiliation to a college, few would watch these players play. These players are benefiting from the affiliation people have with schools and their desire to watch "their" teams play. Without this market, there would be no place for these players to play and be compensated anywhere near their college compensation. Most would not (and currently do not) make it to the NFL. The market for a farm system just isn't there and I don't think it would be there even if colleges dropped football altogether.

 

[Moontan]

In this document from Yukon, they explicitly list $3,100 of the estimated Full Cost if Attendance that "are prohibited from inclusion" in athletic scholarships.

This is what the stipend discussion is about.

 

[xc84]

In this document from Yukon, they explicitly list $3,100 of the estimated Full Cost if Attendance that "are prohibited from inclusion" in athletic scholarships.

This is what the stipend discussion is about.

link does not work for me

 

[HtownOrange]

If no schools offer full cost of attendance scholarships, then how is that not collusion ? Where is the free market option to get a true full ride from another school , or the ability to turn pro?

Schools are not required to offer athletic scholarships. You are arguing that a market has to be in his favor. Consider if you wanted a house you would solicit bids to build what you want at a price you are agreeable to. If I demand that you pay me double you will simple reject my offer and use another contractor.

Applied to the NCAA the schools select which division they wish to compete in and agree to abide by standards. This no different than any other industry standard whether it be pay, benefits, technical, skill, etc.

The schools have openings and offer scholarships to kids. Kids are free to accept or reject. No different than you buying clothes at the store - this is what they offer and the price.

 

[Moontan]

link does not work for me

I'll try again:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/conn/genrel/auto_pdf/2011-12/misc_non_event/right-to-know.pdf

 

[xc84]

I'll try again:

http://grfx.cstv.com/photos/schools/conn/genrel/auto_pdf/2011-12/misc_non_event/right-to-know.pdf

Thanks. That worked. I am not sure why this is listed as excluded: "$450 (books)"

Yet this is inluded:

Grant-in-Aid defines a full athletics grant-in-aid as financial aid that consists of tuition and fees, room and board, and required course-related books.

I get that people want the student football players to get more money but I disagree with the argument that "not everything is covered so they should get more." I think they are compensated very well and get a ton of extra benefits not afforded to other students. This seems be ignored by many. By and large, they are given preferential treatment, significant benefits and the majority are compensated well beyond their football abilities as measured by what the eventually make in the NFL (most don't make a dime).

 

[javadoc]

That " employee" language is being used in these lawsuits in order to gain benefits beyond just money- multi-year scholarships, more input into rules and regulations, access to medical coverage beyond playing days.

The NCAA is going to have a hard time sticking with the 20 hours a week stuff when the courts see how much time athletes actually spend each week on athletic-related "obligations"

Hello, Mr. Hunt. About that $50K in unreported employment income from this year...

 

[Moontan]

Thanks. That worked.
...

I get that people want the student football players to get more money but I disagree with the argument that "not everything is covered so they should get more." I think they are compensated very well and get a ton of extra benefits not afforded to other students.

The whole point is that there are academic scholarship students who get everything paid for and are able to work to earn any money to earn anything extra.

Yes student athletes get better meals, extra tutoring, training facilities, etc.. They are still faced with expenses that some other scholarship students don't face. In addition, they're expected to put in a lot of hours to "earn" their scholarships, miss lots of class time due to travel, are not allowed to earn outside income (and likely couldn't due to their athletic schedules).

Allow schools to pay a stipend to cover the incidentals and the basis for this discussion/complaint goes away.

Just to be clear, I'm opposed to paying players for their play. In fact, I wouldn't pay a dime more than the current offering plus that stipend.

I am curious to know what the NCAA licensing fee is for shirts. I suspect it's less than $1 per shirt. For shirts with players' names on them I could see placing 10% of that fee in a post-graduation account for them. It likely wouldn't add up to much, disappointing many.

 

[Orangeyes]

The picture above shows a kid, Leavander Jones, who we were involved with at one time.

Lawsuit aims to answer: How much is an NCAA scholarship worth?

 

[xc84]

The whole point is that there are academic scholarship students who get everything paid for and are able to work to earn any money to earn anything extra.

Yes student athletes get better meals, extra tutoring, training facilities, etc.. They are still faced with expenses that some other scholarship students don't face. In addition, they're expected to put in a lot of hours to "earn" their scholarships, miss lots of class time due to travel, are not allowed to earn outside income (and likely couldn't due to their athletic schedules).

Allow schools to pay a stipend to cover the incidentals and the basis for this discussion/complaint goes away.

Just to be clear, I'm opposed to paying players for their play. In fact, I wouldn't pay a dime more than the current offering plus that stipend.

I am curious to know what the NCAA licensing fee is for shirts. I suspect it's less than $1 per shirt. For shirts with players' names on them I could see placing 10% of that fee in a post-graduation account for them. It likely wouldn't add up to much, disappointing many.

That may be your point, but it's not mine and I don't agree with it. Football players get more than every student in the school. Just because it is allowable for an undergrad on academic scholarship to get more than a football player doesn't mean it actually happens. Very few get full tuition, room & board let alone anything else. Academic scholars must also "earn" their scholarship. They must maintain certain grades. Football players get more than enough now. Each category of students have their own perks and negatives. Football players are probably the most pampered class of students in the school overall. Anyways, nice chatting. We are at a stand-still... just disagree.

 

[Moontan]

Anyways, nice chatting. We are at a stand-still... just disagree.

I agree that scholarship football players are already handsomely rewarded as part of their football internship and would've loved to have had those benefits during my time on the Hill heck, I even tried to obtain those.

I also see the point that some players from underprivileged situations may have trouble meeting other expenses.

We simply agree to disagree on whether schools should be allowed to offer stipends to meet those expenses.

 

[CuseOnly]

That may be your point, but it's not mine and I don't agree with it. Football players get more than every student in the school. Just because it is allowable for an undergrad on academic scholarship to get more than a football player doesn't mean it actually happens. Very few get full tuition, room & board let alone anything else. Academic scholars must also "earn" their scholarship. They must maintain certain grades. Football players get more than enough now. Each category of students have their own perks and negatives. Football players are probably the most pampered class of students in the school overall. Anyways, nice chatting. We are at a stand-still... just disagree.

I totally disagree with you as well...

1. An academic scholarship does not have practice requirements of 20-30 or so hours a week or 5-10 hours or more of travel, this alone means the players cannot get a job to pay for things not covered by a scholarship alone.
2. They still must study as much as an academic scholarship student but have 20-30 hours less because of athletics to do it. An academic scholarship student can get a part time job in that 20-30 hours a week for whatever they may need AND are still eligible to get a stipend to cover incidentals.
3. Academic scholarship students do not bring in revenue for their school like athletic scholarship student athletes do. In the millions of dollar BTW.

It all adds up that the Student athletes, especially the revenue generating ones need the FCOA...and in my opinion that doesn't even go far enough.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

[quote"HtownOrange, post: 973378, member: 622"]Not sure he can gain standing in any conference other than the Big 12, and that is questionable. It seems more appropriate that he sue WVU or try all schools individually.

Regardless, he signed an agreement to play at WVU and had the opportunity to bargain then, using his Free Market approach. He failed to bargain and accepted their offer. They provided the education, contract fulfilled.[/quote]
There is no bargaining as scholarships are restricted in maximum value.

 

[xc84]

So which of these offered by the school is better or even close to what football players get?

http://www.syr.edu/financialaid/scholarships/su_scholarships_list/academic_merit.html

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

That may be your point, but it's not mine and I don't agree with it. Football players get more than every student in the school. Just because it is allowable for an undergrad on academic scholarship to get more than a football player doesn't mean it actually happens. Very few get full tuition, room & board let alone anything else. Academic scholars must also "earn" their scholarship. They must maintain certain grades. Football players get more than enough now. Each category of students have their own perks and negatives. Football players are probably the most pampered class of students in the school overall. Anyways, nice chatting. We are at a stand-still... just disagree.

The average student doesn't risk/endure bodily injury, concussions, paralysis or death. The average student is encouraged to challenge themselves academically.
Revenue producing sports athletes are usually discouraged from taking challenging or time consuming classes.

 

[tep624]

The average student doesn't risk/endure bodily injury, concussions, paralysis or death. The average student is encouraged to challenge themselves academically.
Revenue producing sports athletes are usually discouraged from taking challenging or time consuming classes.

The average student who isn't eligible for need based scholarships and grants isn't going to be eligible for any other type of scholarship. The consequence is that if you have the ability, your risk your body for free school. If you don't, you take out loans and pay for it yourself. No one is putting a gun to anyone's head forcing them to play college sports.

 

[xc84]

The average student doesn't risk/endure bodily injury, concussions, paralysis or death. The average student is encouraged to challenge themselves academically.
Revenue producing sports athletes are usually discouraged from taking challenging or time consuming classes.

I think you are making a case to ban the game of college football. Paying them a few $thousand more help won't help with the dangers you noted that are inherent in football. I am surprised that someone would say a few $thousand is compensation for paralysis and would somehow justify those risks.

 

[baggerbob]

The lawsuits are a losing battle, because if some judge rules in their favor, then the Federal Government will be stepping in because of Title 9. Their is no way that the men after all this time are going to get paid, and the women aren't. Football in college will end up being dropped by all schools, because no-one makes enough money to pay all their athletes.

 

[Orangeyes]

3-point stance: Alston suit troubling

 

[HtownOrange]

[quote"HtownOrange, post: 973378, member: 622"]Not sure he can gain standing in any conference other than the Big 12, and that is questionable. It seems more appropriate that he sue WVU or try all schools individually.

Regardless, he signed an agreement to play at WVU and had the opportunity to bargain then, using his Free Market approach. He failed to bargain and accepted their offer. They provided the education, contract fulfilled.

There is no bargaining as scholarships are restricted in maximum value.[/quote]
School makes offer. Prospective student/athlete can accept or reject. Said student/athlete can pursue other schools (SEC?), seek academic scholarship or reject school altogether or pay for s book via other means.

Simply because the NCAA has restrictions does not mean that an athlete is removed from the free market. His negotiation is via other means of obtaining an education.

The market shows what the schools can recruit within the guidelines. If schools could not field teams, they would change the NCAA guidelines to meet market demands.

Free market does not mean that every term must be renegotiated for each transaction.

 

[xc84]

The lawsuits are a losing battle, because if some judge rules in their favor, then the Federal Government will be stepping in because of Title 9. Their is no way that the men after all this time are going to get paid, and the women aren't. Football in college will end up being dropped by all schools, because no-one makes enough money to pay all their athletes.

Right. So instead of a full ride for these football players, they will get nothing. That's a big step forward!