NCAA, conferences sued over scholarships

[HtownOrange]

The average student doesn't risk/endure bodily injury, concussions, paralysis or death. The average student is encouraged to challenge themselves academically.
Revenue producing sports athletes are usually discouraged from taking challenging or time consuming classes.

Respectfully, service members do far more for the country for far less compensation. Kids have time when they are young, if they can partly that into a education, great. If they do so via academics or athletics, great.

The Ivies would beg to differ on the academics front. As would the service academies.

 

[xc84]

School makes offer. Prospective student/athlete can accept or reject. Said student/athlete can pursue other schools (SEC?), seek academic scholarship or reject school altogether or pay for s book via other means.

Simply because the NCAA has restrictions does not mean that an athlete is removed from the free market. His negotiation is via other means of obtaining an education.

The market shows what the schools can recruit within the guidelines. If schools could not field teams, they would change the NCAA guidelines to meet market demands.

Free market does not mean that every term must be renegotiated for each transaction.

I agree but I think many are saying they want money and that the actual education is not the compensation the players want. But your point still stands, if they want money, negotiate with the NFL or CFL.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Wonder how walk-ons are considered - players who practice, fulfill the same requirements as scholarship players but even pay and/or accumulate loans for that privilege.

 

[IthacaMatt]

The NCAA has no jurisdiction over when a player can try to get a pro team to play for his services. Without affiliation to a college, few would watch these players play. These players are benefiting from the affiliation people have with schools and their desire to watch "their" teams play. Without this market, there would be no place for these players to play and be compensated anywhere near their college compensation. Most would not (and currently do not) make it to the NFL. The market for a farm system just isn't there and I don't think it would be there even if colleges dropped football altogether.

That's nice, but that doesn't address my point. If all colleges agree that a college scholarship will not be for the full price of attendance, and if a player cannot go directly to the pros, then there is collusion. There is no "free market" when all sellers offer the same price.

 

[tep624]

That's nice, but that doesn't address my point. If all colleges agree that a college scholarship will not be for the full price of attendance, and if a player cannot go directly to the pros, then there is collusion. There is no "free market" when all sellers offer the same price.

Not all sellers are offering the same "price". Some institutions cost more than others, private vs public, and prestige is just as important when considering where to play or where to study. There is definitely intangible value in playing football at Alabama vs playing football at Eastern Michigan.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Schools are not required to offer athletic scholarships. You are arguing that a market has to be in his favor.

IM: And you're arguing that the seller has the option of not selling. Makes no sense in the context of this argument. College sports exist. Scholarships are offered. Let's move on to the next point.

Consider if you wanted a house you would solicit bids to build what you want at a price you are agreeable to. If I demand that you pay me double you will simple reject my offer and use another contractor.

IM: But in reality, the player solicits bids from colleges, some make offers, but all of their offers are for less than the full cost of attendance. There is no meaningful distinction on price if none of the offers includes the full price of school. That's price collusion.

Applied to the NCAA the schools select which division they wish to compete in and agree to abide by standards. This no different than any other industry standard whether it be pay, benefits, technical, skill, etc.

The schools have openings and offer scholarships to kids. Kids are free to accept or reject. No different than you buying clothes at the store - this is what they offer and the price.

 

[IthacaMatt]

That may be your point, but it's not mine and I don't agree with it. Football players get more than every student in the school.

His point is that your second sentence is factually incorrect. You may feel that football players are pampered and get special benefits (fangirls, acclaim), but other kids on scholarship get a better deal financially because they get the full cost of attendance, which includes room and board, and the players apparently do not get a full ride. That's at least 1 basis for this lawsuit that would seem to hold up to a "fairness" analysis. And that doesn't begin to address the school profiting on the athlete's name and likeness rights, for which they might expect compensation.

 

[HtownOrange]

Wonder how walk-ons are considered - players who practice, fulfill the same requirements as scholarship players but even pay and/or accumulate loans for that privilege.

To further your point, kids who play football cannot be on another sport scholarship, I think they may be on an academic scholarship, but I will defer to someone that can confirm this.

 

[xc84]

That's nice, but that doesn't address my point. If all colleges agree that a college scholarship will not be for the full price of attendance, and if a player cannot go directly to the pros, then there is collusion. There is no "free market" when all sellers offer the same price.

They don't all offer the same price. Tuition is different at different schools. A full scholarship at SU is worth a different amount than one at e.g. SUNY Buffalo.

And the NFL an CFL offers compensation of a different kind.

 

[xc84]

To further your point, kids who play football cannot be on another sport scholarship, I think they may be on an academic scholarship, but I will defer to someone that can confirm this.

I don't think they can. Otherwise, teams would use this to get around the number limits.

 

[xc84]

His point is that your second sentence is factually incorrect.

Football players get better scholarships...get more money. You say others can get more. That may be true. But they don't get more. That's where the facts come in. An undergrad on a school-sponsored academic scholarship does not get more than a football player.

And I consider a "full ride" to be full tuition, full room & board, and all required books. Football players all get this and a lot more. e.g. free tutoring.

 

[xc84]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ray_Seals

 

[HtownOrange]

That's nice, but that doesn't address my point. If all colleges agree that a college scholarship will not be for the full price of attendance, and if a player cannot go directly to the pros, then there is collusion. There is no "free market" when all sellers offer the same price.

If te kid can say no, the market exists. College education is not a necessity like gas or electric. Playing football in exchange for the education is mere the offer. The kids can accept or reject. If thousands of kids reject, they will use other kids or change the offers/rules to entice kids to play. That is the market at work.

Your argument is that since a kid cannot control what the school offers, there is no free market but this is factually wrong. Yes, I agree that this bargaining position is very weak overall, but that does not affect whether he must accept or not.

As to collusion, the NCAA has various levels of competition and remuneration. That there is a system in place and it is agreed upon by the member schools does not rise to the level of collusion. Professional sports cap salaries or tax excessive payrolls. College sports is in a parallel environment. Further, the NCAA is complicated by the fact that the majority of sports are actually costing schools money and by Title IX. If the lawsuit wins, we will likely see many non-revenue sports dropped in favor of keeping football afloat with many schools opting to cancel football.

Though I am ambivalent as to giving a kid a stipend in lieu of the fact that they cannot work to earn spending money, the OP and my discussion has centered on the actual lawsuit.

 

[HtownOrange]

I don't think they can. Otherwise, teams would use this to get around the number limits.

I only think this because the Ivies offer no sports scholarships while many kids are on academic scholarships or other scholarships. Again, I am no expert and will gladly defer to someone with definitive knowledge.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Respectfully, service members do far more for the country for far less compensation. Kids have time when they are young, if they can partly that into a education, great. If they do so via academics or athletics, great.

The Ivies would beg to differ on the academics front. As would the service academies.

Anyone can be a serviceman. (I say that as a father of a soon to be Navy Spec. Ops recruit). They get a spexialized education, money, medical and retirement. Not everyone can be a D-1 athlete. Give the players the equivalent, less the retirement.

 

[xc84]

I only think this because the Ivies offer no sports scholarships while many kids are on academic scholarships or other scholarships. Again, I am no expert and will gladly defer to someone with definitive knowledge.

if a kid (football player) is receiving an academic scholarship or other institutional aid, including a scholarship for another sport, he automatically counts against the 85 once he actually steps on the field in a game.

 

[HtownOrange]

Anyone can be a serviceman. (I say that as a father of a soon to be Navy Spec. Ops recruit). They get a spexialized education, money, medical and retirement. Not everyone can be a D-1 athlete. Give the players the equivalent, less the retirement.

Not everyone can serve. Many cannot. Most refuse. Most kids refuse to put forth the effort to be a D1 athlete in any sport. Very few are good enough for the highly specialized training jobs!

Military training is not equal to a four year degree, generally it is quite short of a degree. This is how the military saves money. Additionally, they usually double up the course load to save more money while demanding many more hours of military duty while attending training, often the total hours per week are in excess of 100 hours.

Sure, the military has medical coverage while they are in the military. They do not get coverage after leaving unless they do 20 or more years, same with retirement. The exception is for injuries incurred on active duty, but this is akin to Workers Compensation, which everyone gets if injured on the job. Student athletes get world class medical coverage and treatment that military members can only dream of. Vets cannot even dream of military coverage (Try treating with the VA and see if it is anything close to a student athlete!).

Military members are happy to serve. Many would have been happy to be offered a four year full ride at a good university. If you were to equate the demands and requirements placed on these young kids in the military against the demands and requirements of a D1 athlete, you would probably offer a D1 Athlete a 1/4 scholarship and let's not pretend that any college athlete has lives of the their buddies, unit, innocents, and the world riding on their performance. If military kids screw up, it can mean others die and he could die or go to jail for the rest of his life. If a kid fumbles, at worst he gets benched for a while.

Your argument is that D1 athletes should get paid extra simply because they are good at a sport. Sorry, does not equate, they should be thankful that they can get a free ride to a university. They have the opportunity to prove themselves to the pros. Both of which are far more than the average kid will ever get.

 

[retro44]

you are right about the military.

If these kids wants all sorts of special treatments then the NCAA should make sure these athletes take real classes like the kids who get academic scholarships and be held to the GPA standards the smart kids needs to hold on to theirs.

My kid needs a 3.0 GPA to keep his at SUNY Buffalo in the engineering program....Alston is a WVU crackhead

 

[retro44]

the value of having the local police depts. on the athletic dept. payroll is priceless