NCAA threatens to boot the whole state of California if bill becomes law

HtownOrange

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Overall, the NCAA has improved the academic requirements, but kids are often pushed out of classes, into others, etc. For the good of the team.

Teams making 10,20,30,40 times the 1984 revenue is the leading cause of any amateurism debate. Compounded with judge rulings of antitrust violations and the NCAA being completely incapable of defining the term Amateur? (Alston v. NCAA)
This debate is not going away.
To the bolded point: Sad but true. Schools should accommodate a kid's goal for an education. If it means making video recordings of lectures available due to scheduling issues, so be it. Pushing kids into programs that lead to degrees in which they have no interest is not beneficial to the student in student/athlete, after all, the mission of universities is the pursuit of academic studies.

To your next point, the debate is NOT going away, as you state. The reality is that the schools/NCAA, players, apparel/equipment companies, and the boosters (legal boosters, not the bag men) need to get together and work out the details. All parties must give a little to get a lot; which is the key purpose for working together, to arrive a better arrangement that benefits everyone.
 

NJCuse97

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I live in California.

California is the birth place of the computer/hi-tech industry, the biotech industry, and the web-based industries.
The computer was a NJ invention, like so many other things. The first known "computer" was ENIAC, built at UPenn. The base of computers and all electronic communication and math devices was a combination of the solid state transistor, made of silicon in Bell Labs Murray Hill, NJ in 1948. One of those inventors, William Shockley moved back home to California farm country after he was essentially fired by Bell Labs (he was very likely a racist) and founded Shockley Semiconductor. In part because of his ego and in part because of his "views" his 8 best employees left to join Fairchild Camera and create Fairchild Semiconductor in 1957. One of the official founders is listed as our own Arthur Rock. It was a big political problem when it was discovered in 1967 that they were actually being run as a company from Syosset, NY. On the other end of computing, Claude Shannon also a Bell Labs NJ researcher published his Information Theory which is the basis for binary computer language, email, over-air communication, and the internet as a whole. Sorry to nerd out, but California and Silicon Valley gets too much credit for computers at the expense of NJ.

:p
 

RandomGuy

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The computer was a NJ invention, like so many other things. The first known "computer" was ENIAC, built at UPenn. The base of computers and all electronic communication and math devices was a combination of the solid state transistor, made of silicon in Bell Labs Murray Hill, NJ in 1948. One of those inventors, William Shockley moved back home to California farm country after he was essentially fired by Bell Labs (he was very likely a racist) and founded Shockley Semiconductor. In part because of his ego and in part because of his "views" his 8 best employees left to join Fairchild Camera and create Fairchild Semiconductor in 1957. One of the official founders is listed as our own Arthur Rock. It was a big political problem when it was discovered in 1967 that they were actually being run as a company from Syosset, NY. On the other end of computing, Claude Shannon also a Bell Labs NJ researcher published his Information Theory which is the basis for binary computer language, email, over-air communication, and the internet as a whole. Sorry to nerd out, but California and Silicon Valley gets too much credit for computers at the expense of NJ.

:p
Lol.. Same with motion pictures. (sort of). Edison held the patents, and controlled the industry. In an attempt to escape some legal issues, AND to get away from the Edison Thugs, that happily roughed up those wouldn't get in line, they moved to Hollywood.

As it pertains to the OP...Edison refused to do credits, as he feared recognition would cause the help to want more $$. ;-)
 

Oakland

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Good points, Bell Labs was incredibly productive, and we didn't even mention IBM! Regardless of these small, really almost meaningless details that I overlooked, I think CA's position in the computer industry is well established.

The computer was a NJ invention, like so many other things. The first known "computer" was ENIAC, built at UPenn. The base of computers and all electronic communication and math devices was a combination of the solid state transistor, made of silicon in Bell Labs Murray Hill, NJ in 1948. One of those inventors, William Shockley moved back home to California farm country after he was essentially fired by Bell Labs (he was very likely a racist) and founded Shockley Semiconductor. In part because of his ego and in part because of his "views" his 8 best employees left to join Fairchild Camera and create Fairchild Semiconductor in 1957. One of the official founders is listed as our own Arthur Rock. It was a big political problem when it was discovered in 1967 that they were actually being run as a company from Syosset, NY. On the other end of computing, Claude Shannon also a Bell Labs NJ researcher published his Information Theory which is the basis for binary computer language, email, over-air communication, and the internet as a whole. Sorry to nerd out, but California and Silicon Valley gets too much credit for computers at the expense of NJ.

:p
 

CuseOnly

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1, we don't know that, and 2, so what?
It will benefit them all because boosters will want to fill rosters with the best players available.

They can do that with "no work " jobs above board now.

And the money is limitless for some teams.

This will get shady really really fast.
 

SU2NASA

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The day after New York passes a similar law, I want the SU AD to establish or contract with an outside agency whose purpose is to fundraise, identify “investments”, and leverage those investments in recruiting.

First targets: a QB, new OL, and LB help. Maybe some general 5-stars too.

Let’s make it happen, kids.
 

Cusefan0307

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It will benefit them all because boosters will want to fill rosters with the best players available.

They can do that with "no work " jobs above board now.

And the money is limitless for some teams.

This will get shady really really fast.
It’s already shady!!!!!
 

CousCuse

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Make me AD, I’ll show you how shady it can get, real fast.
MaKE mE aN aD anD ILL MaKE THinGs ShADier THan SHady!!!!
You guys are two of the more sensible people on this board. So consider this. Some schools, the big boys I assume, will say yes,we will pay what ever it takes. Other schools will give a small stipend and that is it. So there will be a bifurcation at that point. It is all but here now. The legal structure and rules are being formulated as we speak. Which division will the Orange be in, or want them to be in.
 

Newhouser

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To the bolded point: Sad but true. Schools should accommodate a kid's goal for an education. If it means making video recordings of lectures available due to scheduling issues, so be it. Pushing kids into programs that lead to degrees in which they have no interest is not beneficial to the student in student/athlete, after all, the mission of universities is the pursuit of academic studies.

To your next point, the debate is NOT going away, as you state. The reality is that the schools/NCAA, players, apparel/equipment companies, and the boosters (legal boosters, not the bag men) need to get together and work out the details. All parties must give a little to get a lot; which is the key purpose for working together, to arrive a better arrangement that benefits everyone.
The pushing or suggesting pursuit of one academic degree over another happens at the Ivy schools too. Compared to the rest of the cesspool the Ivy schools are doing it the right way but it isn't all lollipops there in football or hoops.
 

RandomGuy

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California law goes into effect 2023.

The Florida proposal is for 2020... We may know sooner than expected.

Apparently, as many as a dozen states are considering similar legislation.

Nationally:
Mark Walker (R) North Carolina
Anthony Gonzales (R) Ohio

California
Illinois
Florida
Pennsylvania
New York
Minnesota
Colorado
Kentucky
Nevada
South Carolina

 
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Townie72

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The pushing or suggesting pursuit of one academic degree over another happens at the Ivy schools too. Compared to the rest of the cesspool the Ivy schools are doing it the right way but it isn't all lollipops there in football or hoops.
The Ivies are doing it better. But there’s also a fair amount of chicanery going on.

What the Ivies have going for them is a set of clearly understood, quantifiable rules and an enforcement mechanism and agency of their own.

When I first became aware of the Ivy League, I was surprised at the strength of the rules. It suggested that the schools didn’t trust one another. (They don’t). they want to win in every sport as badly as Syracuse wants to win.

But, in our experience, there is a fair amount of Alumni / booster involvement on the periphery of the process. The most aggressive group in the DC area is Brown, of all schools.

These alumni scout local games to identify prospects, talk directly to coaches about kids, and host “Meet the Coach’s” events.

They would prefer to meet the parents of prospects through social networking. But there has been direct contact with recruits in clear violation of NCAA rules.

Then there are Summer jobs that are alluded to and a suggestion of “We will take care of your son after college” The “We” in this is the network of sports-minded alumni.

The Ivies don’t give scholarships, but most of them give full Financial Aid, which in many cases is the same thing as a scholarship.
 

Cusefan0307

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The Ivies are great at Nepotism. That is for sure!
 

HtownOrange

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The pushing or suggesting pursuit of one academic degree over another happens at the Ivy schools too. Compared to the rest of the cesspool the Ivy schools are doing it the right way but it isn't all lollipops there in football or hoops.
Agreed. That is an integrity issue with the schools and only the students can hold the school's feet to the fire on that issue. Their letter of intent Brent is a contract and the term (pursuit of X degree) may be included.
 

RandomGuy

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I do like the Ivy model. I think the Patriot league borrows some from it. FCS schools seem to follow the amateur model more, but perhaps just because less commercialization.

Recent top tier QB said college sports and college don't mix. Our own HCDB said they move practice depending on the player. It's not that they don't try. Its simply the demands of college sports. Its not as simple as the NCAA saying you can only meet 4 hours a day.

The time constraints are real. I think one factor in losing our own Shy Cullen was time demands. Time intensive courses are often discouraged. There are countless examples of it being Athlete Student, as opposed to Student Athlete.

NCAA is invested in the Student Athlete narrative to keep the "amateur" model in place. While I believe there could be solutions, they fear the optics, and those that would abuse a more athlete student system.

I don't feel bad that the athletes work 16 hour days. Tremendous opportunity comes with tremendous work. I just feel they should be given more opportunity for the education they want(based on time constraints) and own their own image.
 

HtownOrange

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I do like the Ivy model. I think the Patriot league borrows some from it. FCS schools seem to follow the amateur model more, but perhaps just because less commercialization.

Recent top tier QB said college sports and college don't mix. Our own HCDB said they move practice depending on the player. It's not that they don't try. Its simply the demands of college sports. Its not as simple as the NCAA saying you can only meet 4 hours a day.

The time constraints are real. I think one factor in losing our own Shy Cullen was time demands. Time intensive courses are often discouraged. There are countless examples of it being Athlete Student, as opposed to Student Athlete.

NCAA is invested in the Student Athlete narrative to keep the "amateur" model in place. While I believe there could be solutions, they fear the optics, and those that would abuse a more athlete student system.

I don't feel bad that the athletes work 16 hour days. Tremendous opportunity comes with tremendous work. I just feel they should be given more opportunity for the education they want(based on time constraints) and own their own image.
As to the one commitment, I am coming around to making five years standard (play four) to ensure kids get a chance to pursue what they choose to pursue and to lighten the in-season load.

I also agree with those that state a school should be committed to the player, i.e. guaranteed offer (athlete must meet academics and behaviors standards, too), minimum four years on scholarship, no Sabans wherein you cut a kid because you think you can recruit over the kid.
 

RandomGuy

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5 years for a degree may benefit the players, but then the ncaa looks like they're treating them like athletes first, which doesn't fit their narrative.

Same with having to have a course for their degree, in season. If time constraints make it wiser for out of season? I'm ok with that, but they'll look like athletes first.

Regardless, there will be courses only offered in the fall that will conflict with athletics. Attending that may not be allowed, but even if it is? If that's the difference between playing or not, missing out on a season, or letting down their teamates? The athlete may voluntarily skip it.

There are no fix all answers when trying to mesh the modern demands of college athletics with college academics - for some.
Although, recognizing that athletes are not just traditional students(the narrative), is a good start.
 

Townie72

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You guys are worried about the classes these athletes take and the degree tracks they are on????

If that were only the scope of the problem.

What about players who are juniors or even graduate who read at an 8th grade level?

The degrees they are getting aren't worth the papaer they are written on.

What about kids in classes whose IQ's and academic skills are so low they cannot get the benefit of even the most basic college course?

Watch a couple of episodes of "Last Chance U" and tell me that our biggest problem is athletes being forced into easier classes and less demanding majors.

Years ago they interviewed Georgetown's Reggie Williams on TV after game. He was a JUNIOR at the time at GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY. It was a revealing moment for me. He struggled to communicate so badly it was tragic.
 

OttoinGrotto

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As to the one commitment, I am coming around to making five years standard (play four) to ensure kids get a chance to pursue what they choose to pursue and to lighten the in-season load.

I also agree with those that state a school should be committed to the player, i.e. guaranteed offer (athlete must meet academics and behaviors standards, too), minimum four years on scholarship, no Sabans wherein you cut a kid because you think you can recruit over the kid.
I'm a big fan of 5 to play 4. Most students can't pull off graduating in 4 years.

 

Scooch

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I haven't been following this thread the past few days, so apologies if this is old news, but I find this quote from Larry Scott today to be pretty damn tone deaf:

"If young people want to earn money from their name, image or likeness or get paid to play, they should have that opportunity. That's called pro sports"

This from a guy who leads a conference who's members are making billions of dollars in media money. I presume Larry will shortly be returning said money, because he leads an amateur sports conference?
 

TheCusian

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You guys are worried about the classes these athletes take and the degree tracks they are on????

If that were only the scope of the problem.

What about players who are juniors or even graduate who read at an 8th grade level?

The degrees they are getting aren't worth the papaer they are written on.

What about kids in classes whose IQ's and academic skills are so low they cannot get the benefit of even the most basic college course?

Watch a couple of episodes of "Last Chance U" and tell me that our biggest problem is athletes being forced into easier classes and less demanding majors.

Years ago they interviewed Georgetown's Reggie Williams on TV after game. He was a JUNIOR at the time at GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY. It was a revealing moment for me. He struggled to communicate so badly it was tragic.
This is ridiculous. They get into college based on a very specific, very valuable skill. This skill allows them entry into a world that would be very closed in most cases (speaking of "our biggest problems")...

For every kid interviewed on TV that you take offense to, there are thousands who grab the chance to be the first from their family to graduate from college.

One might draw the opposite inference... that a kid who is removed from a toxic environment go on to become something through hard work, caring and committed professionals, and a good meal. Imagine a world where the toxic environment wasn't so toxic.
 

RandomGuy

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You guys are worried about the classes these athletes take and the degree tracks they are on????

If that were only the scope of the problem.

What about players who are juniors or even graduate who read at an 8th grade level?

The degrees they are getting aren't worth the papaer they are written on.

What about kids in classes whose IQ's and academic skills are so low they cannot get the benefit of even the most basic college course?

Watch a couple of episodes of "Last Chance U" and tell me that our biggest problem is athletes being forced into easier classes and less demanding majors.

Years ago they interviewed Georgetown's Reggie Williams on TV after game. He was a JUNIOR at the time at GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY. It was a revealing moment for me. He struggled to communicate so badly it was tragic.
Townie, that was an attempt to illustrate that they are often treated as athlete students, not the student athlete the ncaa would like us to believe. You've illustrated that point further . It's about the $$. To be fair, many are able to fill both athletic and academic needs.

The NCAA needs to keep the student athlete narrative alive(in that order), in order to keep their business model.

With antitrust violations, a complete failure to define the term amateur, and the new laws? (All laws or current rulings) The entire system is under fire.

To be fair, last chance u kids weren't college material.
 
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