NCAA threatens to boot the whole state of California if bill becomes law

[Townie72]

i know they dont bend them nearly as much as you think.

Actually the Ivies don’t bend their rules at all.

They have a very sophisticated system they use called “The Ivy League Academic Index” that insures that everybody all the schools bring meet the guidelines.

The Ivy League offices monitor the system carefully. They watch each other like hawks. There are no scholarships but they meet 100% of Financial Aid need. (No loans, no work-study, etc).

I’m as close to an expert on this as you’ll find as I had two sons who went through the process.

 

[TheCusian]

Exactly my point.

The politicians will come in and pass legislation that they think makes them look good. And the schools and their agent, the NCAA, will deal with the obvious and unintended consequences.

The American people have caught on to this and that’s why they view all politicians as frauds, crooks and opportunists.

Yeah, not everyone sees it that way. Some still have hope in our system of government, we the people, etc.

Again, it’s not their jobs to solve the problems. Sometime laws correct injustices - if the overreached and tried to solve it - you’d prob complain about that too. Jaded is lazy apathy.

 

[rrlbees]

I appreciate this and your long response the other night that I didn’t have the time to answer properly. You make some really good points, the NCAA makes rules, and it seems that there are some schools, conferences and states that want those rules changed.

The education may be worth $x, but it doesn’t actually cost the school anything. And it isn’t like the schools are running athletics programs, especially P5 program, to be altruistic. They only reason they don’t want money getting in players’ hands is because it means less money for them in the form of donations.

The education costs the school. There is always an internal battle (and probably at other schools too) as to whose budget will bear the cost of the scholarship. The university or the individual college/school. Last I knew, a few years ago, it was the individual college/school, and they were none to happy about it.

 

[rrlbees]

The NCAA just blinked.

Emmert told the Star leaders in the NCAA are not opposed to finding "an appropriate way" to open the door for some form of compensation for athletes, but a completely unregulated market is "not acceptable."

That’s where I stand. I have no problem with a student athlete getting paid some amount. Others can figure out what’s equitable and which athletes, or all athletes receive payment. But outside sources paying a player isn’t legal right now and it’s a cluster. If it were to be legalized it would be further out of control.

 

[Townie72]

Yeah, not everyone sees it that way. Some still have hope in our system of government, we the people, etc.

Again, it’s not their jobs to solve the problems. Sometime laws correct injustices - if the overreached and tried to solve it - you’d prob complain about that too. Jaded is lazy apathy.

The people are fine. Maybe a little too easily fooled, but they eventually catch on.

The Clinton’s were dead broke when Bill left the White House. The now have $150 Million.

They didn’t invent the I-Phone.

 

[Hoo's That]

I believe the bill is just the Olympic model of amateurism. The international definition of Amateur. (Allowed to make $$ of of likeness)

There is no "Olympic model" anymore. The IOC leaves it up to each sport's international governing body to decide who is eligible to participate in the Olympics. There are full-out professional (by anyone's definition of "professional") tennis and soccer players participating in the Olympics because those sports' governing body allow them to participate.

 

[Hoo's That]

The education costs the school. There is always an internal battle (and probably at other schools too) as to whose budget will bear the cost of the scholarship. The university or the individual college/school. Last I knew, a few years ago, it was the individual college/school, and they were none to happy about it.

That may be the private school model. All state schools are covered by laws passed by each legislature which forbid taxpayer money from going toward athletics. The boosters have to pay for all scholarships for anyone given one and for all athletic facilities (no state money went toward building JPJ Arena). Each semester, the UVa Bursar sends a bill to the Virginia Athletics Foundation for the tuition, fees, books, and room (for anyone living in the dorms). Meals are provided by the Athletics Department outside the University dining hall system, so there is no bill for board. Now, do they play games with in-state vs. out-of-state tuition rates? For some people they do, but by no means for all.

 

[maxxyz]

Raising the drinking age was to reduce vehicle deaths. No one is going to die if their rights are restored.

That was part of the propaganda to justify the raising the drinking age. There was no data at the time to support that and none since. But I digress.

The question is why are politicians racing to install laws without any input on the concequences of those laws, and why are they not creating a timeline to install it at a later date to help the 400 institutions be prepared to deal with the results of the changes? They raised the drinking age over three years. Why the rush?

My tinfoil hat is telling me that if the shoe companies can buy coaches and players, they can buy politicians.

 

[TheCusian]

You should be able to figure that out by yourself. You seem like a bright guy.

Boosters unchained. Bidding wars among schools. Kids with more money than sense.

What could possibly go wrong?

This already is the case. This would bring it out in the open, add agents, and contracts (which protect both parties)

 

[TheCusian]

You are ignoring the impact of this on college athletics and how impossible it will be to manage and police.

“Consequences, be damned” seems to be your idea.

how is it managed by NFL, NBA players? There’s a working model complete with brokers, paperwork, and the courts to deal with broken contracts etc.

 

[TheCusian]

A government has a right to govern its universities. I don’t know why that’s silly.

he doesn’t believe in democracy

 

[qdawgg]

he doesn’t believe in democracy

As OttoinGrotto said to an earlier post, "that's quite the jump".

Silly response to an educated conversation.

 

[RandomGuy]

That was part of the propaganda to justify the raising the drinking age. There was no data at the time to support that and none since. But I digress.

The question is why are politicians racing to install laws without any input on the concequences of those laws, and why are they not creating a timeline to install it at a later date to help the 400 institutions be prepared to deal with the results of the changes? They raised the drinking age over three years. Why the rush?

My tinfoil hat is telling me that if the shoe companies can buy coaches and players, they can buy politicians.

Yeah, that's what they told us when I was 16 or 17, and our very close neighboring state raised the age... lol!

Those on the other side of the debate don't see it as installing a law. It's removing an unjust(illegal-at least in Cali), surrendering of a personal freedom, that should not have occurred.

NCAA has a history of professionalism. If memory serves... A period in the 70's when academics were irrelevant. If you graduated high school, you could play. Other periods (80's) where graduation rates were as low as 20%. They didn't give a hoot about the student part. It was the sport, and the revenue. 1984 Supreme Court ruling lead to an explosion of revenue. Spent on salaries across the board, palatial facilities, an arms race, and anything the business could do to compete. Not something you'd expect a University to do(see the Ivy model) , but a professional business.

An internal NCAA poll, in 2017, showed that 79% of Americans believe that the Universities put $$ before the athlete. Can you blame them?

 

[upperdeck]

Actually the Ivies don’t bend their rules at all.

They have a very sophisticated system they use called “The Ivy League Academic Index” that insures that everybody all the schools bring meet the guidelines.

The Ivy League offices monitor the system carefully. They watch each other like hawks. There are no scholarships but they meet 100% of Financial Aid need. (No loans, no work-study, etc).

I’m as close to an expert on this as you’ll find as I had two sons who went through the process.

not true

 

[Oakland]

I live in California.

Your characterization of politicians in CA is right out of the right wing, smear playbook. The politicians in this state have created an environment that has resulted in an unprecedented development of: capital creation, scientific innovation, economic development, and increase in wealth - maybe the greatest that the world has ever experienced. California is the cradle of: the movie industry, the birth place of the computer/hi-tech industry, the biotech industry, and the web-based industries. What are we - the 7th biggest economy in the world! In his second stint as governor, famous right wing whipping boy, moonbeam Jerry Brown, cleaned up the fiscal mess that, the Gropinator, Arnold Schwarzenegger and others left us in. Jerry just retired from politics and he left us with a $21 billion state surplus; despite Trump’s tax bill that forces CA and NY to further subsidize the low tax Red welfare states. Jerry is a true fiscal conservative – my kind of politician! All while, protecting our clean water, clean air, worker and lifestyle rights. CA was also, among many other popular social changes, the origin of the non-smoking in public places; one of civilization’s great recent achievements.

Your politicians may suck - but not ours.

Oh, they definitely ought to be concerned. Anytime politicians are involved in anything, whoever might be affected ought to be very concerned. And this is a politician from California.

As we all should know, politicians are driven by press coverage, voter sentiment and graft. Actually fixing a problem is low on their priority list.

A guaranteed Townie prediction is that anythong politicians come up with will make things worse. They'll declare victory and throw a gigantic bag of crap over the fence for the NCAA and the schools to manage.

People don't appear to like or trust the NCAA. But Ill take them every time over the fools, theives and knaves in the US Congress or any state legisl

 

[maxxyz]

I live in California.

Your characterization of politicians in CA is right out of the right wing, smear playbook. The politicians in this state have created an environment that has resulted in an unprecedented development of: capital creation, scientific innovation, economic development, and increase in wealth - maybe the greatest that the world has ever experienced. California is the cradle of: the movie industry, the birth place of the computer/hi-tech industry, the biotech industry, and the web-based industries. What are we - the 7th biggest economy in the world! In his second stint as governor, famous right wing whipping boy, moonbeam Jerry Brown, cleaned up the fiscal mess that, the Gropinator, Arnold Schwarzenegger and others left us in. Jerry just retired from politics and he left us with a $21 billion state surplus; despite Trump’s tax bill that forces CA and NY to further subsidize the low tax Red welfare states. Jerry is a true fiscal conservative – my kind of politician! All while, protecting our clean water, clean air, worker and lifestyle rights. CA was also, among many other popular social changes, the origin of the non-smoking in public places; one of civilization’s great recent achievements.

Your politicians may suck - but not ours.

I love your passion for your state and you make a good case.

That being said, California gave us Devin Nunes and Dana Rohrabacher, which cancels out every excellent political achievement of your state for the last 30 years. Not that NY can boast. We birthed trump which we can never make up for.

 

[Cusefan0307]

That’s where I stand. I have no problem with a student athlete getting paid some amount. Others can figure out what’s equitable and which athletes, or all athletes receive payment. But outside sources paying a player isn’t legal right now and it’s a cluster. If it were to be legalized it would be further out of control.

It’s already happening. Why can’t they police themselves now? The Kansas situation is going to determine a lot.

 

[Townie72]

I live in California.

Your characterization of politicians in CA is right out of the right wing, smear playbook. The politicians in this state have created an environment that has resulted in an unprecedented development of: capital creation, scientific innovation, economic development, and increase in wealth - maybe the greatest that the world has ever experienced. California is the cradle of: the movie industry, the birth place of the computer/hi-tech industry, the biotech industry, and the web-based industries. What are we - the 7th biggest economy in the world! In his second stint as governor, famous right wing whipping boy, moonbeam Jerry Brown, cleaned up the fiscal mess that, the Gropinator, Arnold Schwarzenegger and others left us in. Jerry just retired from politics and he left us with a $21 billion state surplus; despite Trump’s tax bill that forces CA and NY to further subsidize the low tax Red welfare states. Jerry is a true fiscal conservative – my kind of politician! All while, protecting our clean water, clean air, worker and lifestyle rights. CA was also, among many other popular social changes, the origin of the non-smoking in public places; one of civilization’s great recent achievements.

Your politicians may suck - but not ours.

First of all, by making State taxes deductible and reducing the Federal taxes paid, CA and NY rich people were shifting the Federal tax burden to other states. That’s hardly fair. You can vote in all the spending you want in your own State, just don’t asks the rest of us to then pony up the Federal taxes you avoid. Just pay for the programs and spending you want by yourselves.

California leads the US in homelessness, illegal immigrants, welfare spending, food stamps and people who would like to leave the State.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Gonna have to move this to the OT board...

 

[RandomGuy]

Actually the Ivies don’t bend their rules at all.

They have a very sophisticated system they use called “The Ivy League Academic Index” that insures that everybody all the schools bring meet the guidelines.

The Ivy League offices monitor the system carefully. They watch each other like hawks. There are no scholarships but they meet 100% of Financial Aid need. (No loans, no work-study, etc).

I’m as close to an expert on this as you’ll find as I had two sons who went through the process.

I like the Ivy model. I have no question that it's an amateur model, with academics first.

The one rule they will bend? (Sorta) Is that an athlete with a 1200 SAT, and a mediocre GPA, can be accepted for athletics.. Still responsible for the same academic standards while enrolled.

If the rest of the ncaa had less $$ like the ivies, I would whole heartedly defend the ncaa model. Unfortunately, they sold their integrity to the highest bidders.

 

[RandomGuy]

Gonna have to move this to the OT board...

I hope this can stay on the NCAA/Athletes. While political philosophy is a component for some, it doesn't change the California law, or its ramifications. I think most of us are FAR more interested in the consequences.

 

[Townie72]

I like the Ivy model. I have no question that it's an amateur model, with academics first.

The one rule they will bend? (Sorta) Is that an athlete with a 1200 SAT, and a mediocre GPA, can be accepted for athletics.. Still responsible for the same academic standards while enrolled.

If the rest of the ncaa had less $$ like the ivies, I would whole heartedly defend the ncaa model. Unfortunately, they sold their integrity to the highest bidders.

You sure half right. They do accept athletes with 1200 or 1250 SATs but they also consider class rank in the calculation. But what you may not understand is that they can only have a few of these across the entire group of athletic recruits they bring in in a year. And this small number has to be offset by very high SAT scoring, high Class Rank athletes on the other end of the distribution.

The great bulk of the athletes they bring in have much higher SAT scores and higher Class Rank.

Using SAT scores and Class Rank as the measures, The distribution of athletes must match the distribution of the entire class they bring in.

The index is based on tiers and is matched against a two-tailed “normal” distribution of SAT scores and Class Rank for an entire incoming class of students. There are five tiers. Kids with 1250 SATs who rank in the upper half of their high school class are in the bottom tier. And each school can admit only a few of these in the lowest tier in any class in all sports. If they use one of these for a basketball player it is not available for a football player. This isn’t by sport, it’s for the all sports.

The result is that there are a few bottom tier players on each team.

There are zero athletes with 1000 SATs.

 

[RandomGuy]

You sure half right. They do accept athletes with 1200 or 1250 SATs but they also consider class rank in the calculation. But what you may not understand is that they can only have a few of these across the entire group of athletic recruits they bring in in a year. And this small number has to be offset by very high SAT scoring, high Class Rank athletes on the other end of the distribution.

The great bulk of the athletes they bring in have much higher SAT scores and higher Class Rank.

Using SAT scores and Class Rank as the measures, The distribution of athletes must match the distribution of the entire class they bring in.

The index is based on tiers and is matched against a two-tailed “normal” distribution of SAT scores and Class Rank for an entire incoming class of students. There are five tiers. Kids with 1250 SATs who rank in the upper half of their high school class are in the bottom tier. And each school can admit only a few of these in the lowest tier in any class in all sports. If they use one of these for a basketball player it is not available for a football player. This isn’t by sport, it’s for the all sports.

The result is that there are a few bottom tier players on each team.

There are zero athletes with 1000 SATs.

Yepp. I was given the simple bell curve explanation. I like the in depth explanation, a bit more. For certain, its academics first. If you are on the wrong end of the curve? You better strap in.

For me, the Ivies have maintained integrity in the face of big $$. The others? Not so much.

** side note. While it was long ago... Yale has 18 national championships. Princeton 15, Harvard 8.

 

[HtownOrange]

I like the Ivy model. I have no question that it's an amateur model, with academics first.

The one rule they will bend? (Sorta) Is that an athlete with a 1200 SAT, and a mediocre GPA, can be accepted for athletics.. Still responsible for the same academic standards while enrolled.

If the rest of the ncaa had less $$ like the ivies, I would whole heartedly defend the ncaa model. Unfortunately, they sold their integrity to the highest bidders.

Your assessment that the Ivies enforce the academics is what I deem most important. Let's be honest. the SEC athletes (outside of Vandy) do not know what academic standards are. Nor do UNC athletes. The NCAA should be all over this &^$@! Enforcing academic standards would negate much of the nonsense, but we know how the NCAA policed UNC. How many schools have kids you and know couldn't get their names right on the SAT let alone a high enough score to get in to a college are playing Di college sports?

One of the things I have always respected about SU is they enforce academics. Yes, they bend a little to get kids qualified, but the ensure the kids remain eligible. It's not a perfect science, but I love the fact that SU at least tries hard to remain true to their mission. Living in Big 12/SEC territory, the only school in this area like SU is Rice...and though they field teams, they don't really play the games...

 

[RandomGuy]

Your assessment that the Ivies enforce the academics is what I deem most important. Let's be honest. the SEC athletes (outside of Vandy) do not know what academic standards are. Nor do UNC athletes. The NCAA should be all over this &^$@! Enforcing academic standards would negate much of the nonsense, but we know how the NCAA policed UNC. How many schools have kids you and know couldn't get their names right on the SAT let alone a high enough score to get in to a college are playing Di college sports?

One of the things I have always respected about SU is they enforce academics. Yes, they bend a little to get kids qualified, but the ensure the kids remain eligible. It's not a perfect science, but I love the fact that SU at least tries hard to remain true to their mission. Living in Big 12/SEC territory, the only school in this area like SU is Rice...and though they field teams, they don't really play the games...

Hear you on the SEC. In 1986 the NCAA instituted some stricter standards. The 1.6 GPA pre 1970, had been scrapped for "did you graduate?" Essentially, being a college eligible student was only a bonus before then. Athlete before student.

The newer standard left many ineligible. Particularly hard hit, were those from poor minority communities. (Per ncaa document) In just a few years, those students figured it out, and those eligible dramatically increased. Bravo for the NCAA on that one.

There is a gpa/sat chart available, that I "think" all schools must abide by, but its safe to suffice that some of those students would not be admitted to that school if it werent for athletics. Because they bring monetary value.

Overall, the NCAA has improved the academic requirements, but kids are often pushed out of classes, into others, etc. For the good of the team.

Teams making 10,20,30,40 times the 1984 revenue is the leading cause of any amateurism debate. Compounded with judge rulings of antitrust violations and the NCAA being completely incapable of defining the term Amateur? (Alston v. NCAA)
This debate is not going away.