NET and KenPom Tracker 23-24 (SU = 84 3/9/24) | Page 7 | Syracusefan.com

NET and KenPom Tracker 23-24 (SU = 84 3/9/24)

I don’t think how you view this is accurate - although I don’t know for sure since I don’t know the algorithm.

Margin of victory shouldn’t be a linear correlation, it’s probably some form of power graph. The “value difference” between winning by 1 vs 2 pts is much greater than winning by 8 vs 9 points. A significant amount of the issue with a team taking their foot off the gas doesn’t really matter as a result. But there’s always going to be potential for some weird potential outliers.

Plus I think he used margin of victory to simplify the explanation - which actually isn’t helpful. The whole point of this analysis is on offensive and defensive efficiency, so that’s what would most likely be used to calculate “luck”. Those should both be impacted less than pure margin of victory by a strategy of running the clock out at the end of a game.

As an aside, when hockey analytics were initially taking off, a lot of people mocked the measure of “puck luck”. Then the Kings (#8 seed) and Devils (#6 seed) made the 2012 Stanley Cup Finals as the two worst “puck luck” teams - then everyone thought it was some magic bullet measure (which it isn’t). It might be better if luck was called something else like potential variance, although nobody would know what that meant and it’s not really accurate either. The whole issue here is that most people don’t understand statistical analysis, and efforts to simply enough to explain it generally just confuse the situation for the average person. I know enough to know I don’t know enough to know if how luck is calculated here has any predictive value, and I also know that investigating it to figure that out isn’t a valuable way for me to spend my time.
i think from the NCAA perspective...from the business of making money from college sports...

what matters?

eyeballs.

what lowers the number of eyeballs? blowouts. noncompetitive games.

what increases ratings? brand name teams, buzzer beaters, close games...

if I am picking an NCAA team, yeah, I want the team that plays in close games. And I want the refs that ref close games.

my suspicion is that all of this stuff with NET and quads and all this stuff ...is really about that.

and SU benefitted a bit from this at times for sure...I think the storyline of Buddy and his Dad was too good to pass up from a marketing perspective...and the NCAA was rewarded for including them that year they made a run with a dubious record.

Overall, keep things vague enough...while also maintaining a facade of objectivity...and they can do what they really want to do...increase profits as much as possible. They cant predict hpw a tournament will go but they can do their best to make it exciting.
 
i think from the NCAA perspective...from the business of making money from college sports...

what matters?

eyeballs.

what lowers the number of eyeballs? blowouts. noncompetitive games.

what increases ratings? brand name teams, buzzer beaters, close games...

if I am picking an NCAA team, yeah, I want the team that plays in close games. And I want the refs that ref close games.

my suspicion is that all of this stuff with NET and quads and all this stuff ...is really about that.

and SU benefitted a bit from this at times for sure...I think the storyline of Buddy and his Dad was too good to pass up from a marketing perspective...and the NCAA was rewarded for including them that year they made a run with a dubious record.

Overall, keep things vague enough...while also maintaining a facade of objectivity...and they can do what they really want to do...increase profits as much as possible. They cant predict hpw a tournament will go but they can do their best to make it exciting.
I think their tv revenue is set year to year. Viewership increases will help the next contract.
 
Overall, keep things vague enough...while also maintaining a facade of objectivity...and they can do what they really want to do...increase profits as much as possible. They cant predict hpw a tournament will go but they can do their best to make it exciting.

Since I’m always interested in hearing what bat-crap crazy conspiracy theories people have, and everything in that paragraph indicates great potential for just such a theory - I gotta hear more.

How exactly does a not-really-objective system for picking teams for the tournament lead to close games and not blowouts?
 
Since I’m always interested in hearing what bat-crap crazy conspiracy theories people have, and everything in that paragraph indicates great potential for just such a theory - I gotta hear more.

How exactly does a not-really-objective system for picking teams for the tournament lead to close games and not blowouts?
ok, i'll entertain you

(1) if you also take into account what is going on in NCAAFB its not really a stretch to also think that monetary decisions are driving much of what is going on.

(2) i think the refs are trained to ref games to keep them close (as possible) ...not always possible but I think they try...and generally tend to favor the team that falls behind in games.

(3) there are often seeding "snafus" that lead to teams being underseeded/overseeded...and a minimal pointspread in the opening round games, especially lately

(4) i dont think its anything too egregious...they cant be too blatant with it....but I also think they preserve a facade...in order to make "executive decisions"...and of course ratings are a big part of their revenue model...so...I dont think it is 100% strictly sporting reasons why they make decisions in how they set up the tourney and who gets invited

i think theres a bias towards creating "buzzer beater" games and nailbiters...and upsets...more than there is a fidelity to stcking to whatever rating system like NET that is in place.

...is that really that crazy????
 
ok, i'll entertain you

(1) if you also take into account what is going on in NCAAFB its not really a stretch to also think that monetary decisions are driving much of what is going on.

(2) i think the refs are trained to ref games to keep them close (as possible) ...not always possible but I think they try...and generally tend to favor the team that falls behind in games.

(3) there are often seeding "snafus" that lead to teams being underseeded/overseeded...and a minimal pointspread in the opening round games, especially lately

(4) i dont think its anything too egregious...they cant be too blatant with it...but I also think they preserve a facade...in order to make "executive decisions"...and of course ratings are a big part of their revenue model...so...I dont think it is 100% strictly sporting reasons why they make decisions in how they set up the tourney and who gets invited

i think theres a bias towards creating "buzzer beater" games and nailbiters...and upsets...more than there is a fidelity to stcking to whatever rating system like NET that is in place.

...is that really that crazy????
no, the rest of us are just naive.

Always Sunny Reaction GIF
 
i think from the NCAA perspective...from the business of making money from college sports...

what matters?

eyeballs.

what lowers the number of eyeballs? blowouts. noncompetitive games.

what increases ratings? brand name teams, buzzer beaters, close games...

if I am picking an NCAA team, yeah, I want the team that plays in close games. And I want the refs that ref close games.

my suspicion is that all of this stuff with NET and quads and all this stuff ...is really about that.

and SU benefitted a bit from this at times for sure...I think the storyline of Buddy and his Dad was too good to pass up from a marketing perspective...and the NCAA was rewarded for including them that year they made a run with a dubious record.

Overall, keep things vague enough...while also maintaining a facade of objectivity...and they can do what they really want to do...increase profits as much as possible. They cant predict hpw a tournament will go but they can do their best to make it exciting.
That's a little over the top as a conspiracy theory, but I have zero doubt these considerations have always had an effect on football rankings. Those don't even pretend to be objective, it's some assistant coach turning in a list of other teams with coaches from his wedding party. At best
 
This team (Iowa State, I believe) is now 5th in the NET. Check out their stellar resume. They’ve beaten up on a bunch of tomato cans and went 1-2 in their games against P5 teams, losing to Va Tech and Texas A&M and beating a weak Iowa team. Unbelievable.

Also, 7-5 Alabama is somehow 9th in the NET.
Alabama has played a crazy schedule this year. They’ll end up with a ton of Q1 games.
 
Seems to me he ought to re-evaluate his initial formula for expected records if he needs to add a luck component to counter the actual results.
For instance, without looking it up, I would bet the 2009-2010 SU team was one of the luckiest ever.

I will let the math/stats folks let me know why I am not correct.
That's because there is no perfect algorithm. These are all best fit. But KenPom is pretty freaking good, since the "luck" component is so small as to be nearly inconsequential (e.g. for Duke it's like less than 0.4% of their KenPom adjEM).

It's just a measure of departure from the expected record/adjusted efficiency margin. He didn't name it luck because it is a MEASURE of luck, he just didn't have a better name for it. But it captures some of the "what the hell is happening" in Team's records. It's not sustainable or predictive in any way (coaches/teams aren't luckier than others year over year). It's a measure of error. Basically if you think a team is better (or worse) than their record indicates, take a look at the luck factor to see they're underperforming or overperforming their statistical metrics. Lots of weird things can happen when you have enough data points and we've all seen how basketball games can change on a community college transfer drilling a low-percentage jumper as time expires or a ball bouncing off the rim the wrong way.
 
I don’t think how you view this is accurate - although I don’t know for sure since I don’t know the algorithm.

Margin of victory shouldn’t be a linear correlation, it’s probably some form of power graph. The “value difference” between winning by 1 vs 2 pts is much greater than winning by 8 vs 9 points. A significant amount of the issue with a team taking their foot off the gas doesn’t really matter as a result. But there’s always going to be potential for some weird potential outliers.

Plus I think he used margin of victory to simplify the explanation - which actually isn’t helpful. The whole point of this analysis is on offensive and defensive efficiency, so that’s what would most likely be used to calculate “luck”. Those should both be impacted less than pure margin of victory by a strategy of running the clock out at the end of a game.
Also:
Do you cap margin of victory/defeat at all?
Yes. The limit on margin of victory is based on the distribution of margin of victory for all games in a particular season. For college basketball, this works out to something around 16 points by the end of the year.
 
ok, i'll entertain you

(1) if you also take into account what is going on in NCAAFB its not really a stretch to also think that monetary decisions are driving much of what is going on.

(2) i think the refs are trained to ref games to keep them close (as possible) ...not always possible but I think they try...and generally tend to favor the team that falls behind in games.

(3) there are often seeding "snafus" that lead to teams being underseeded/overseeded...and a minimal pointspread in the opening round games, especially lately

(4) i dont think its anything too egregious...they cant be too blatant with it...but I also think they preserve a facade...in order to make "executive decisions"...and of course ratings are a big part of their revenue model...so...I dont think it is 100% strictly sporting reasons why they make decisions in how they set up the tourney and who gets invited

i think theres a bias towards creating "buzzer beater" games and nailbiters...and upsets...more than there is a fidelity to stcking to whatever rating system like NET that is in place.

...is that really that crazy????
Going to be a lot of people prison if any of this proves to be true. Gamblers don’t take kindly to rigging
 
Alabama has played a crazy schedule this year. They’ll end up with a ton of Q1 games.
SEC has only 18 conference games so Alabama has 13 OOC games. They face 6 P6 schools and 7 cupcakes. Although Alabama got 7 wins from cupcakes, their record against P6 is 1-5. The only win is beat Oregon.
 
Beating Pitt only improves our KenPom ranking by four places while Pitt dropped by six. Something is not right. Pitt was in top 40 of KenPom.
I think it's because we were favored to win even considering the pregame ranks, even if ever so slightly
 
I think it's because we were favored to win even considering the pregame ranks, even if ever so slightly
Actually according ESPN-Bet, we have only 40% of the chance to win this game. This is the final odds just before the game began.
 
I know this will be a TLDR post for many who prefer to creative narratives or bash numbers, rather than try to understand what something is doing and its strengths and weaknesses.

I respect the system and what it does (but I understand its limitations) and I have no agenda except understanding numbers.. but at the same time, myself like KP, will also say KP should not be anywhere close to a primary basis to select NCAA teams, and at best a very low secondary basis for selecting item. And it's not a primary factor or even really a secondary factor for choosing NCAA teams. Which I agree with!

And the W by Syracuse today is much more important than whatever our KP movement is from one isolated game in a sample.

Its a margin based system done to rank 362 teams in order to help people predict outcomes. Good luck trying to rank 362 teams on straight wins and losses or "Eye Test", when there are such large variances in schedule strength. You have to use margin to try to rank such a large amount of teams. You can try do those types of things (Who beat Who) when ranking the top 25, but you can't do that effectively when its a larger group

The change by Syracuse was totally as expected. I'll explain the math.
It was basically a pick em game, since Syracuse has the 3.5 point advantage being at home.
We won by 8 points, so 8 points above expected margin (before considering pace)
8 points / 13 games / .724 (our tempo of 72.4 possesions) = .84 improvement in EM
Our current Adjusted Efficiency Margin of 9.58 is #81
Before the game it would have been around 9.58 - 0.84 = 8.74, which would be #87 as of now.

Margin matters, not just straight W and L, for KP.
For example if we lose to Duke by 1 point, I ran the calculations and our EM would improve by about 1.4 and move our ranking up to about #71 or #72 And if we win by 1 point, it would be 69 or 70. Not much difference in either ranking because its only 2 points. But of course the difference between Winning and Losing by 1 point would be massive for our tournament lives -- as it should be when choosing teams.

So what do I like about KP - its a good way to get a general understanding of how good a team is, by looking at its "range" a 60-80 type team for example, which is quite helpful for mid-majors that we never see -- to me that is the best part of the system. It also predicts teams ultimate outcome better than the current AP Top 25 as a whole for example. Again KP is being using to rank 362 teams, and help us predict outcomes for 362 teams.

But I would never use the simple KP ranking to pick a P6 team for the tournament, and what P6 teams should get in. That should be based on the straight quality of your W's and L's.

Nor would I use it to prepare my current top 25, "AP Style".

That being said the top 25 in KP as of today, will very likely end up doing better in conference and end of year and the tournament, then the current AP top 25 who will have more teams tank a bit. That is because KP is a good predictive system and will predict where teams end up better than the current AP Top 25. Of course there will always be exceptions and anomalies,
 
I know this will be a TLDR post for many who prefer to creative narratives or bash numbers, rather than try to understand what something is doing and its strengths and weaknesses.

I respect the system and what it does (but I understand its limitations) and I have no agenda except understanding numbers.. but at the same time, myself like KP, will also say KP should not be anywhere close to a primary basis to select NCAA teams, and at best a very low secondary basis for selecting item. And it's not a primary factor or even really a secondary factor for choosing NCAA teams. Which I agree with!

And the W by Syracuse today is much more important than whatever our KP movement is from one isolated game in a sample.

Its a margin based system done to rank 362 teams in order to help people predict outcomes. Good luck trying to rank 362 teams on straight wins and losses or "Eye Test", when there are such large variances in schedule strength. You have to use margin to try to rank such a large amount of teams. You can try do those types of things (Who beat Who) when ranking the top 25, but you can't do that effectively when its a larger group

The change by Syracuse was totally as expected. I'll explain the math.
It was basically a pick em game, since Syracuse has the 3.5 point advantage being at home.
We won by 8 points, so 8 points above expected margin (before considering pace)
8 points / 13 games / .724 (our tempo of 72.4 possesions) = .84 improvement in EM
Our current Adjusted Efficiency Margin of 9.58 is #81
Before the game it would have been around 9.58 - 0.84 = 8.74, which would be #87 as of now.

Margin matters, not just straight W and L, for KP.
For example if we lose to Duke by 1 point, I ran the calculations and our EM would improve by about 1.4 and move our ranking up to about #71 or #72 And if we win by 1 point, it would be 69 or 70. Not much difference in either ranking because its only 2 points. But of course the difference between Winning and Losing by 1 point would be massive for our tournament lives -- as it should be when choosing teams.

So what do I like about KP - its a good way to get a general understanding of how good a team is, by looking at its "range" a 60-80 type team for example, which is quite helpful for mid-majors that we never see -- to me that is the best part of the system. It also predicts teams ultimate outcome better than the current AP Top 25 as a whole for example. Again KP is being using to rank 362 teams, and help us predict outcomes for 362 teams.

But I would never use the simple KP ranking to pick a P6 team for the tournament, and what P6 teams should get in. That should be based on the straight quality of your W's and L's.

Nor would I use it to prepare my current top 25, "AP Style".

That being said the top 25 in KP as of today, will very likely end up doing better in conference and end of year and the tournament, then the current AP top 25 who will have more teams tank a bit. That is because KP is a good predictive system and will predict where teams end up better than the current AP Top 25. Of course there will always be exceptions and anomalies,
I think we will be one of those anomalies.
 
This morning SU was +1.5. I hit that
You can still see ESPN game predictions before midnight. They use ESPN-BET across all ESPN pages.
Pitt is favored by 2.7 points and had 60% of chance to win using ESPN-BET engine.

 

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