Night in and Night out...

[bpo57]

hardly anybody on the D-1 level gets less out of their center position than SU. These guys don't rebound, can't defend and unless it's an uncontested dunk are not going to score. And it's even more distressing that DC was unable to get on the floor ahead of them. Very little, if any, progress from last year to this year. We ain't going anywhere unless these guys pick up their play in a material way.

 

[NineOneSeven]

hardly anybody on the D-1 level gets less out of their center position than SU. These guys don't rebound, can't defend and unless it's an uncontested dunk are not going to score. And it's even more distressing that DC was unable to get on the floor ahead of them. Very little, if any, progress from last year to this year. We ain't going anywhere unless these guys pick up their play in a material way.

With regards to defense-- the center takes the majority of the schtick for giving up layups/rebounds because they are the last line of defense. This is what the zone does. Centers seem out of position because when opponents drive past the wings/guards they have to collapse. Happened today a few times. Fair gets caught up top, ball swing to corner, center must contest = open paint for a rebounding. Watch the replay of the game, happened a few times today. Opposite forward must rotate down and Fair needs to flash to the rim to get a body on someone when this happens, instead of trying to get back to the corner where our center already rotated to.

Agree completely about offensive production. It is less than abysmal.

 

[MyMeloMyMan]

To be fair, playing the pivot in a zone is extremely difficult. You are left on an island quite often, where you have to decide whether to guard a guy who gets under the free throw line (and be out of position for a rebound), or protect the rim/guys behind you. I can't say we've had very many who were impressive down there. You almost just need to have like a whirling dirvesh down there, like Nerlens. Just someone to cause havoc and make guys nervous about bringing weak sauce in the paint.

 

[JeremyCuse]

hardly anybody on the D-1 level gets less out of their center position than SU. These guys don't rebound, can't defend and unless it's an uncontested dunk are not going to score. And it's even more distressing that DC was unable to get on the floor ahead of them. Very little, if any, progress from last year to this year. We ain't going anywhere unless these guys pick up their play in a material way.

You make some good points, when was the last great center we had who rebounded and had an inside game? Etan Thomas?

 

[Orangeman]

hardly anybody on the D-1 level gets less out of their center position than SU. These guys don't rebound, can't defend and unless it's an uncontested dunk are not going to score. And it's even more distressing that DC was unable to get on the floor ahead of them. Very little, if any, progress from last year to this year. We ain't going anywhere unless these guys pick up their play in a material way.

One of the issues with a 2-3 zone is that it removes defenders from key rebounding areas/position.

It's MUCH different than man-to-man. You almost can't blame a guy. You're not guarding someone the same in 2-3 because you're also responsible for the NEXT move/pass on the offense. What it means is the Center is often out of position to rebound, particularly when the offense overloads one side.

Coaches always said to me that "more than half" of rebounds end up on the other side of the basket (which is why having Melo and Warrick in 2003 was so HUGE in rebounding...the 2-3 is lights out if you have 6-9 and 6-8 who can rebound on either side).

I try not to be critical of Boeheim since he's had over 900 more Div 1s than I have, but it does drive me crazy when he blames players for being out of position on either D or Rebounding when it's the 2-3 zone's fault. I mean, what kind of defense occasionally has Keita flying out to the corner to defend a three? It happens with 2-3 zone. Similarly, teams can get a good shot if they overload, it's just math (picture Fair over in the corner with noone to guard).

Yanking guys for being out of position, when its caused by the zone structure, is a real developmental issue with this program...you can actually see the resentment on behalf of the guys getting pulled. My issue is the architect of the 2-3 should know it's limitations/percentages and not blame the individuals when the 35% happens.

 

[JeremyCuse]

One of the issues with a 2-3 zone is that it removes defenders from key rebounding areas/position.

It's MUCH different than man-to-man. You almost can't blame a guy. You're not guarding someone the same in 2-3 because you're also responsible for the NEXT move/pass on the offense. What it means is the Center is often out of position to rebound, particularly when the offense overloads one side.

Coaches always said to me that "more than half" of rebounds end up on the other side of the basket (which is why having Melo and Warrick in 2003 was so HUGE in rebounding...the 2-3 is lights out if you have 6-9 and 6-8 who can rebound on either side).

I try not to be critical of Boeheim since he's had over 900 more Div 1s than I have, but it does drive me crazy when he blames players for being out of position on either D or Rebounding when it's the 2-3 zone's fault. I mean, what kind of defense occasionally has Keita flying out to the corner to defend a three? It happens with 2-3 zone. Similarly, teams can get a good shot if they overload, it's just math (picture Fair over in the corner with noone to guard).

Yanking guys for being out of position, when its caused by the zone structure, is a real developmental issue with this program...you can actually see the resentment on behalf of the guys getting pulled. My issue is the architect of the 2-3 should know it's limitations/percentages and not blame the individuals when the 35% happens.

Nice post, really good points.

 

[tbonezone]

so you'd like to trade raxmas, mooseman and coleman for who ??? name the ncaa team and players.
collectively i'd say this is one of our best groups ever assembled. do we know how to use them???

 

[NineOneSeven]

One of the issues with a 2-3 zone is that it removes defenders from key rebounding areas/position.

It's MUCH different than man-to-man. You almost can't blame a guy. You're not guarding someone the same in 2-3 because you're also responsible for the NEXT move/pass on the offense. What it means is the Center is often out of position to rebound, particularly when the offense overloads one side.

Coaches always said to me that "more than half" of rebounds end up on the other side of the basket (which is why having Melo and Warrick in 2003 was so HUGE in rebounding...the 2-3 is lights out if you have 6-9 and 6-8 who can rebound on either side).

I try not to be critical of Boeheim since he's had over 900 more Div 1s than I have, but it does drive me crazy when he blames players for being out of position on either D or Rebounding when it's the 2-3 zone's fault. I mean, what kind of defense occasionally has Keita flying out to the corner to defend a three? It happens with 2-3 zone. Similarly, teams can get a good shot if they overload, it's just math (picture Fair over in the corner with noone to guard).

Yanking guys for being out of position, when its caused by the zone structure, is a real developmental issue with this program...you can actually see the resentment on behalf of the guys getting pulled. My issue is the architect of the 2-3 should know it's limitations/percentages and not blame the individuals when the 35% happens.

A more in depth version of what I said a few posts up. I agree.

And let me say, as a basketball player, this is all true.

 

[OttoMets]

One of the issues with a 2-3 zone is that it removes defenders from key rebounding areas/position.

It's MUCH different than man-to-man. You almost can't blame a guy. You're not guarding someone the same in 2-3 because you're also responsible for the NEXT move/pass on the offense. What it means is the Center is often out of position to rebound, particularly when the offense overloads one side.

Coaches always said to me that "more than half" of rebounds end up on the other side of the basket (which is why having Melo and Warrick in 2003 was so HUGE in rebounding...the 2-3 is lights out if you have 6-9 and 6-8 who can rebound on either side).

I try not to be critical of Boeheim since he's had over 900 more Div 1s than I have, but it does drive me crazy when he blames players for being out of position on either D or Rebounding when it's the 2-3 zone's fault. I mean, what kind of defense occasionally has Keita flying out to the corner to defend a three? It happens with 2-3 zone. Similarly, teams can get a good shot if they overload, it's just math (picture Fair over in the corner with noone to guard).

Yanking guys for being out of position, when its caused by the zone structure, is a real developmental issue with this program...you can actually see the resentment on behalf of the guys getting pulled. My issue is the architect of the 2-3 should know its limitations/percentages and not blame the individuals when the 35% happens.

Agree with this.

It's also important to note that we're in an odd situation - in the past three years, we've had a freshman starting at center twice; in the third season, our starter was suspended right as he was rounding into a contributor; and our bigs coach was fired after three decades on the job.

Then again, we've had maybe three guys in the Boeheim era who have put up numbers that Jeff Withey/Cole Aldrich types seem to put up every season. Syracuse isn't exactly Big Man U. The recent struggles go beyond that, though.

 

[bpo57]

I grant the difficulties of being a center in the 2-3 zone but that only goes so far for me. I've had this opinion for several weeks now so in order to torture myself I specifically watch Christmas or BMK as much as possible. These guys get blocked out on the defensive boards like nobody's business and are constantly caught out of position in no-man's land. And it ain't like there are big time front lines in the BE this year.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

You make some good points, when was the last great center we had who rebounded and had an inside game? Etan Thomas?

OA and then Jackson. Not too shabby a duo I think. But not until they were upperclassmen. Hell the goof we had in Melo came on in only his second year.

 

[bpo57]

so you'd like to trade raxmas, mooseman and coleman for who ??? name the ncaa team and players.
collectively i'd say this is one of our best groups ever assembled. do we know how to use them???

I'm not sure which ones I'd trade for- maybe the ones that night in and night outplay our centers on a routine basis. I might have agreed with you several months ago but the production doesn't meet the hype. Simple as that.

Seriously, name me the games where these guys were a factor and played well. As for each one- jury is still out on DC. I am hopeful. BMK-like his effort and ability to run the floor. Bad hands, weak lower half that gets him pushed around a lot and causes him to foul incessantly. Very limited offensive game. Christmas- invisible most of the time. Where is the motor?

 

[LetMeIn]

Yanking guys for being out of position, when its caused by the zone structure, is a real developmental issue with this program...you can actually see the resentment on behalf of the guys getting pulled. My issue is the architect of the 2-3 should know it's limitations/percentages and not blame the individuals when the 35% happens.

Are guys really being yanked when the nature of the zone leaves them out of position, or are they getting yanked from the game because their lack of effort or lack of understanding of the zone leaves them out of position?

How many times have you seen BMK taken out the game for flying out to challenge a corner 3? Now compare that to the number of times we have seen Rak taken out of the game for failing to get out on a corner 3?

I don't dispute that there are times our players should be allowed to play through their mistakes a bit more, but the bottom line is it is not going to happen when those mistakes are due to mental lapses or lack of effort.

 

[tbonezone]

ifs, buts, candy nuts etc. cooley is a senior. coleman's a frosh,rak a soph and moose a junior. nice try but that would be a truly epic dumbass trade imo.

 

[Hoboken Cuse]

ifs, buts, candy nuts etc. cooley is a senior. coleman's a frosh,rak a soph and moose a junior. nice try but that would be a truly epic dumbass trade imo.

Here is the definition of "truly epic dumbass"... collectively i'd say this is one of our best groups ever assembled.

 

[tbonezone]

ok then name 3 better centers we've fielded during any 1 season.

 

[bpo57]

ifs, buts, candy nuts etc. cooley is a senior. coleman's a frosh,rak a soph and moose a junior. nice try but that would be a truly epic dumbass trade imo.

"One of best group's ever assembled". I'd call that a nice try. I think what Hoboken Cuse was saying is that he'd take just one year of Cooley over a crew that is rather replaceable and doesn't show the potential to do very much. The only way he is wrong on that is if DC develops into a stud. That could happen. But the other two? What you see is what you get and I'd take one year of Cooley over four years of them in a heartbeat. He's one of the best low post players in the country.

 

[bpo57]

ok then name 3 better centers we've fielded during any 1 season.

I can think of pairs of centers that were much better. Most SU teams didn't carry three centers. Bouie/Schayes. Call me crazy but I'd take Forth/McNeal over Raq/BMK. Bottom line though is we have had numerous centers that were better than either BMK or Raq. Bouie, Schayes, Hawkins, Conrad Mac, jackson, Melo just a few off the top of my head.

 

[retro44]

it's tough when we only have ex guards teaching the low post now.time for some new blood

 

[KevMonstah]

retro44 - is there a "like many times button" i can click? SU does not have a coach who's been able to draw out improvement from the big guys over the course of the year, and I think that's been a problem for a long time.

part of the reason i think they're having trouble defending the center of the zone is that i think all three guys are flawed, and even moreso, i don't think they present a great obstacle to scoring in the middle. dajuan is clearly suited to be a rebounder on the wing, because i think no opponent is really worried about having his shot blocked by him. i think baye has the ability to block shots, but any post guy with any bulk or moves will either post him into a position where he can't affect the shot, go around him, or just go through him - he's not gonna stop a power player. rakeem ends up out of position way too much. it's just that simple.

on offense i think it's even worse, simply because the perimeter guys make no attempt to pass down to them, and SU as a team apparently doesn't believe in low post scoring, other than alley oops or offensive rebounding. when was the last game they ran an actual set play to get a low post guy a shot? i can't remember. they have to try it; the low post guys will *never* shoot 8-34 from the field as the wing guys did today.

kev

 

[IthacaMatt]

You make some good points, when was the last great center we had who rebounded and had an inside game? Etan Thomas?

Rick Jackson averaged a double double.

 

[Garbs]

With regards to defense-- the center takes the majority of the schtick for giving up layups/rebounds because they are the last line of defense. This is what the zone does. Centers seem out of position because when opponents drive past the wings/guards they have to collapse. Happened today a few times. Fair gets caught up top, ball swing to corner, center must contest = open paint for a rebounding. Watch the replay of the game, happened a few times today. Opposite forward must rotate down and Fair needs to flash to the rim to get a body on someone when this happens, instead of trying to get back to the corner where our center already rotated to.

Agree completely about offensive production. It is less than abysmal.

not much they can do if they get zero touches on offense

JB said it himself, "those guys aren't ready" aka he isn't giving them the ball

he might know more than us, but the offense has been so bad it might be time to try some other things

I would love to see them feed Rak in the post and have CJ and Grant crashing the boards

 

[tbonezone]

rick jackson had the advantage of some reliable outside firepower to create room underneath.

 

[NineOneSeven]

not much they can do if they get zero touches on offense

JB said it himself, "those guys aren't ready" aka he isn't giving them the ball

he might know more than us, but the offense has been so bad it might be time to try some other things

I would love to see them feed Rak in the post and have CJ and Grant crashing the boards

That's bs (not your entire post only second para.).. These guys are D1 basketball players. They've been putting the ball in the basket their entire lives. We don't even look to go to Rak on offense (usually). Post him up, give him the ball, let him have the chance to make a move. If he makes it great. If he misses it great. At least we did something different from our guards forcing drives and off balance floaters.

"these guys aren't ready" is a tiresome quote.

 

[Garbs]

That's bs (not your entire post only second para.).. These guys are D1 basketball players. They've been putting the ball in the basket their entire lives. We don't even look to go to Rak on offense (usually). Post him up, give him the ball, let him have the chance to make a move. If he makes it great. If he misses it great. At least we did something different from our guards forcing drives and off balance floaters.

"these guys aren't ready" is a tiresome quote.

you complete missed my whole post, good effort though