Notes from last night for our asst coaches to gnaw on

[Orangeman]

Duke's switching defenses and scouting of Wisconsin's tendencies was pretty amazing. The help defense on the back side alone was worth the cost of attendance. Switching ball screens, pressuring the ball to diffuse any advantage gained from the resulting matchup...the NCAA tournament is hard to win, but it seems that high-ball-pressure defense, which is mostly the opposite of what we run, is a strong predictor of success (if you've got the horses).

Foul trouble mgmt...pretty incredible...although my conclusion is solid guard defense to eliminate easy dribble penetration is the key.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Coach K is the best coach in the country. Bias aside, I strongly believe it.

And, brace yourselves here people, he mixed up his defense into zone when he needed to adjust to the foul situation and direction the game was going.

 

[jordoo]

Coach K is the best coach in the country. Bias aside, I strongly believe it.

And, brace yourselves here people, he mixed up his defense into zone when he needed to adjust to the foul situation and direction the game was going.

And when Wiski made a few open jumpers he switched out of zone only to switch back to it and have it then be effective. K doesn't wait very long in big games to call time outs or make adjustments either. If he sees even a short trend he doesn't like he adjusts.

 

[NineOneSeven]

And when Wiski made a few open jumpers he switched out of zone only to switch back to it and have it them be effective. K doesn't wait very long in big games to call time outs or make adjustments either. If he sees even a short trend he doesn't like he adjusts.

Was there any doubt they would make a big shot when they got down 9? I said in the game thread, here comes a kick out 3.

From PLUMLEE to GRAYSON ALLEN. Unreal stuff.

 

[jordoo]

Was there any doubt they would make a big shot when they got down 9? I said in the game thread, here comes a kick out 3.

From PLUMLEE to GRAYSON ALLEN. Unreal stuff.

Why the defense collapses on Plumlee is pretty strange? As 'Orangeman' noted above Duke's staff did a much better job scouting Wiski than Wiski did Duke. Duke and K's willingness to work outside their norm from game to game is refreshing to see.

 

[igor]

Duke's switching defenses and scouting of Wisconsin's tendencies was pretty amazing. The help defense on the back side alone was worth the cost of attendance. Switching ball screens, pressuring the ball to diffuse any advantage gained from the resulting matchup...the NCAA tournament is hard to win, but it seems that high-ball-pressure defense, which is mostly the opposite of what we run, is a strong predictor of success (if you've got the horses).

Foul trouble mgmt...pretty incredible...although my conclusion is solid guard defense to eliminate easy dribble penetration is the key.

that was brief to help stretch the game. they locked them up mano a mano. not until syr fan .com acknowledges this and the stogie goes.will we win it all. cant win hoping they miss the entire game.

 

[TinyManInside]

It was fun basketball to watch. I used to hate Duke based solely on the immature/childish jealousy thing that so many sports fans (myself inlcuded) suffer from. I became a big fan of Coach K after watching him clean up the debacle that was US basketball under Larry Brown. The dude can flatout coach.

 

[TheCusian]

I love these kinds of posts. "See! If we just did what the champs did, we'd win too!"

There is so much that goes into winning it all. And the zone single-handedly got us to the FF three years ago. Besides JB makes adjustments in the zone in-game, scouts the opponents prior, etc.

If you play defense and offense at an elite level you have a shot. We've already proven that the zone can be devastating when it's right.

 

[orangejunkie]

Don't think SU's problems of late are on the defense. The offense has been the problem. We need a guard and a forward that can break down the defense. Haven't had that since MCW was here...

 

[orangejunkie]

Forgot about CJ Fair as a forward that could create some off the dribble. In watching these teams they have multiple guys that can take it to the basket and create foul situations. SU's only players that could take guys off the dribble or 1 one one was Xmas and occasionally Roberson and Joseph.

 

[Yegorange]

C'mon guys, this is igor speaking here. His anti-JB/zone obsession goes back years: JB sucks, and m2m >>>>>>>>> the stinking zone.

 

[Yegorange]

that was brief to help stretch the game. they locked them up mano a mano. not until syr fan .com acknowledges this and the stogie goes.will we win it all. cant win hoping they miss the entire game.

When the guards are long and tall (ya know, kinda like Sims, MCW, etc.) and the rotations are there, the majority of the outside shots are well contested and are in fact missed without having to "hope" for it. This has been proven over and over, and that's the type of guard Jim recruits for his zone. But of course nothing will ever convince you.

 

[OttoMets]

Don't think SU's problems of late are on the defense. The offense has been the problem. We need a guard and a forward that can break down the defense. Haven't had that since MCW was here...

Since before that, in fact. That was our first year of really ineffective offense.

 

[igor]

When the guards are long and tall (ya know, kinda like Sims, MCW, etc.) and the rotations are there, the majority of the outside shots are well contested and are in fact missed without having to "hope" for it. This has been proven over and over, and that's the type of guard Jim recruits for his zone. But of course nothing will ever convince you.

we make few stops when they are needed by design. the next bloke talks offense. for years r shooters r not up to par. that is because we don't ever practice against quality man. good man chokes us. in 03 we had melo. he defied good man. best one on one player in a generation.

 

[pfister1]

we make few stops when they are needed by design. the next bloke talks offense. for years r shooters r not up to par. that is because we don't ever practice against quality man. good man chokes us. in 03 we had melo. he defied good man. best one on one player in a generation.

 

[Orangeman]

I am not Igor. I am not anti-zone...I AM anti relying on one defense the entire game/season...but aside from that, I am sensitive to comparing our team to what is the best team/coach in the country.

So I tried to focus on two things where I think we can really improve upon. And the scouting/ball pressure plus foul trouble mgmt were, in my mind, extraordinary. In the prior game (Duke/MSU) I was watching the blocking out, which was incredible.

I don't care if people all agree, that's why it's debate, but I DID NOT say blah blah "duke is great and we're not"...I specifically hoped that we could learn two things from that amazing performance...

One last point...it is amazing to me...people around here lament how other teams CONSISTENTLY get shot-clock-buzzer-beating dagger threes against us, and suggest it happens to us more than the norm, etc etc. They also say that "Cooney was right there"...but they're missing the point. Cooney was in THE VICINITY, but he was not providing ball-pressure like what was demonstrated last night. Wisconsin is probably a better shooting team than anyone we played this year (maybe except for Duke themselves), and while maybe they had an off night, they hit ZERO dagger shots at the end of the clock? Why? In my view, it's because Duke was all over them and didn't give them the oppty. That is a major, major difference between being in the vicinity and hoping they miss the shot. At this level, given how the game is practiced behind the arc, "in the vicinity" means a good shooter is actually pretty open.

Bomb away if you want. They're just my thoughts having watched the teams we're supposedly trying to compete with

 

[Yegorange]

we make few stops when they are needed by design. the next bloke talks offense. for years r shooters r not up to par. that is because we don't ever practice against quality man. good man chokes us. in 03 we had melo. he defied good man. best one on one player in a generation.

1) Hack , hack ... Hakim
2) Cough, cough ... Gerry, Andy
3) See 1 and 2a

)

 

[orangecuse]

I love these kinds of posts. "See! If we just did what the champs did, we'd win too!"

There is so much that goes into winning it all. And the zone single-handedly got us to the FF three years ago. Besides JB makes adjustments in the zone in-game, scouts the opponents prior, etc.

If you play defense and offense at an elite level you have a shot. We've already proven that the zone can be devastating when it's right.

I know this season with all that has happened feels like three years itself, but it was actually two years ago that we were in Atlanta.

 

[FrancoPizza]

Cooney was in THE VICINITY, but he was not providing ball-pressure like what was demonstrated last night. At this level, given how the game is practiced behind the arc, "in the vicinity" means a good shooter is actually pretty open.

Couldn't have said it better myself. There is a major fundamental difference between closing out on a shooter to give the appearance of contesting a shot and actually being in someone's grill so they can't spot up. "Closing out" doesn't cut it against elite shooters. If we're all about winning another title with JB, it's going to be because we have a great offensively balanced team like in 2010. Offensive firepower usually means you're playing with the lead which makes the zone more effective... and it can bail the defense out when the zone is toast (Texas 03, Wisc 12). Lastly, when you get to the sweet 16 and beyond, teams win games with superior halfcourt execution. You all saw the Final 4 this year... there was no reliance on forcing turnovers and easy fast break points... you just can't depend on that to beat elite teams.

 

[SBU72]

Things to take away: have perhaps the best coach in college b-ball and have 3 1-n-done McD AA freshman plus a very veteran guard. Add a McD AA coming off the bench and a more than adequate backup center. Now how many of these things does SU have? Yeah the assistant coaches can learn from this but to what end. Oh yeah, excellent "D" more often than not beats an excellent "O" but you still have to score points to win.

 

[Col. Bleep]

I honestly don't understand some of this debate.
A team playing zone simply is not going to be able to play defense the same way a man-to-man team will.
Duke's D was brilliant...keeping Wisconsin from attacking and forcing them to settle for mostly contested shots.
(And, by the way, Wisconsin looked lost against the 2-3...never even bothering to move the zone)

But perhaps there's something to be learned from both offenses.
Duke was aggressive...constantly looking to drive and work inside.

Wisconsin had some great movement.
One play in particular I watched three times.
Ball starts with Dekker on right side.
Swings to top of key.
Then to left side.
By the time it gets to the left side there's a backscreen set on Dekker's defender...he goes to the rim and takes the pass for an easy layup.
Just beautiful basketball...it's why I love watching Wisconsin (and Duke).

 

[Oakland]

You didn't mention that they also have at least 4 good outside shooters. Usually, 3 on the court at any time.

Things to take away: have perhaps the best coach in college b-ball and have 3 1-n-done McD AA freshman plus a very veteran guard. Add a McD AA coming off the bench and a more than adequate backup center. Now how many of these things does SU have? Yeah the assistant coaches can learn from this but to what end. Oh yeah, excellent "D" more often than not beats an excellent "O" but you still have to score points to win.

 

[CuseCPT]

Coach K is the best coach in the country. Bias aside, I strongly believe it.

And, brace yourselves here people, he mixed up his defense into zone when he needed to adjust to the foul situation and direction the game was going.

Yeah that was really stupid on Coach K's part. You should pick one thing and stick to it, NO MATTER WHAT. I guess Duke just got really lucky that that decision didn't cost them. :noidea:

 

[Madbiker]

Don't think SU's problems of late are on the defense. The offense has been the problem. We need a guard and a forward that can break down the defense. Haven't had that since MCW was here...

We also need to move into the 21st century and realize winning teams put MULTIPLE 3 point shooters on the floor. We seem to cling to the old model where only the SG is a 3 point threat.

 

[HoustonCuse]

One of the differences is that the talent on the floor last night was far superior to what we put out there on average. It would be an interesting comparison to see what Boeheim could do with the Duke team as comprised last night. If you ran all zone with that team would you still win the championship or would you lose in the Sweet 16? I don't know. But JB has had pretty good success with the lesser talent he's had.

Still, watching that game last night was pretty depressing. I've never felt that were farther away from that level than we are right now. It could just be a little bit of depression from a poor season but we don't seem to be in the same vicinity as those two teams last night.