Now that GMac is HC, what does next year's squad look like?

[Capt. Tuttle]

Does anyone know who GMac is looking to add?

Yes

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Great, the more people that graduate the better for their lives regardless of your feelings. Data is clear and not debateable that life outcomes are better for those with degrees than those without. Most players across all sports arent making big money and it only lasts so long. Lacrosse players and field hockey players that transfer arent making millions. Learning and academics are actually important dude. Thats why SU exists

When everyone has a degree, they lose their value. Also, you missed the point of my post. The post I replied to alleged concerns that fewer players would graduate with the current transfer rules. My point was that many players didn’t graduate under the old rules. We have built a system where college is expected to for all, while only suitable for some, and affordable for fewer. Most American students leave college in great debt. Many to most of them will never be able to get out from under the weight of it. The rush to cash in on this has led to colleges creating majors that have no economic value, just to suck kids in and foist predatory loans on them and their parents.
This is a good analysis of under employment of college grads. https://www.stlouisfed.org/open-vault/2025/aug/jobs-degrees-underemployed-college-graduates-have.

The days of education for education sake are gone, or on their way. Many skills can be learned with on line tools. When you balance earning income starting at 18 against the cost of education, it can be a tough trade off. Especially if disciplineded enough to max out ROTH IRAs and pre-tax retirement accounts.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

When everyone has a degree, they lose their value. Also, you missed the point of my post. The post I replied to alleged concerns that fewer players would graduate with the current transfer rules. My point was that many players didn’t graduate under the old rules. We have built a system where college is expected to for all, while only suitable for some, and affordable for fewer. Most American students leave college in great debt. Many to most of them will never be able to get out from under the weight of it. The rush to cash in on this has led to colleges creating majors that have no economic value, just to suck kids in and foist predatory loans on them and their parents.

Ironically, when you treat a degree entirely like a commodity, that's when it truly loses its value. If the expectation you mention is seen as just acquiring a piece of paper, then there's a good chance acquiring it is not the same as acquiring the value that could potentially come with it.

You can major in lit and be outstanding in a number of fields if you embraced all of the challenges that the program has to offer. I know some folks in the legal field that did just that. Hell, I worked with a guy from SU that majored in studio arts (sculpture) and he was excellent... even though his career seemingly couldn't be more different from what his degree entailed.

It's all about having a plan and what you take from the experience. I think that's the major disconnect that we see in society. If your plan is to wrack up a ton of debt, get straight Cs, and take just about nothing intellectually from the experience, then that's a really poor choice to make.

 

[Scooch]

Ironically, when you treat a degree entirely like a commodity, that's when it truly loses its value. If the expectation you mention is seen as just acquiring a piece of paper, then there's a good chance acquiring it is not the same as acquiring the value that could potentially come with it.

You can major in lit and be outstanding in a number of fields if you embraced all of the challenges that the program has to offer. I know some folks in the legal field that did just that. Hell, I worked with a guy from SU that majored in studio arts (sculpture) and he was excellent... even though his career seemingly couldn't be more different from what his degree entailed.

It's all about having a plan and what you take from the experience. I think that's the major disconnect that we see in society. If your plan is to wrack up a ton of debt, get straight Cs, and take just about nothing intellectually from the experience, then that's a really poor choice to make.

Tremendous post. Perfectly said.

 

[Orangezoo]

At this point I’m glad there is no activity. I’d rather wait on either another euro or even better have money set aside to bring Kingz back via the 5 for 5. You do that and then you can pair two high motor high level scorers next to Dual in the backcourt. You can figure out backup PG as it goes along be it Moesch or Tobiason. Then you have Doty, M3 and Kiyan as well as possibly a chance to play 4 wings with Wilson or Siby if Siby comes along faster. Set aside positional semantics and go with as many two way players as possible.

 

[MikeSU02]

Let's assume Folefac commits. Team is (grabbing the list from Scooch 's post and adding FF):

Dual
Tobiason
Doty
Anthony
Moesch
MMM
White
Folefac
Goodrick
Wilson
Siby

11 guys. And re Folefac, we have people waiting on pins and needles for that kid who was a MAAC player.

Our starting five has to be (because we need two guys starting that can functionally shoot a jump shot just from form):
Dual
Tobiason
Kiyan or MMM
White
Wilson

That means we are looking at potentially 3-4 Siena guys in the rotation as backups. A third place Siena team in the MAAC and then a starting guard who every single defender will be going under on a ball screen up top. Every single one.

We had to bring in GMac and bring the money. We were building our roster bench first. Doty and Moesch have been getting the upstate NY friends and family treatment.

Barring a miracle (which could still happen), this team is banking on a jump from Kiyan, MMM being all of the five stars that Givony said and a majority of unproven guys at this level to break our way. If you think Doty, Goodrick, Folefac AND Moesch are all going to be able to work at this level, I have a bridge to sell you. We will be lucky if one can be a legit rotation guy/borderline starter on a competitive ACC team and maybe a spot minutes guy. Again, for a competing ACC team.

Now y'all can go back to arguing about policies.

 

[LAOrange]

...We have built a system where college is expected to for all, while only suitable for some, and affordable for fewer. Most American students leave college in great debt. Many to most of them will never be able to get out from under the weight of it. The rush to cash in on this has led to colleges creating majors that have no economic value, just to suck kids in and foist predatory loans on them and their parents...

^Smart dude^

 

[Orangezoo]

That means we are looking at potentially 3-4 Siena guys in the rotation as backups. A third place Siena team in the MAAC and then a starting guard who every single defender will be going under on a ball screen up top. Every single one.

We had to bring in GMac and bring the money. We were building our roster bench first. Doty and Moesch have been getting the upstate NY friends and family treatment.

Barring a miracle (which could still happen), this team is banking on a jump from Kiyan, MMM being all of the five stars that Givony said and a majority of unproven guys at this level to break our way. If you think Doty, Goodrick, Folefac AND Moesch are all going to be able to work at this level, I have a bridget to sell you. We will be lucky if one can be a legit rotation guy/borderline starter on a competitive ACC team and maybe a spot minutes guy. Again, for a competing ACC team.

This snippet and especially the bolded part probably drives 90 pct if not more of the negativity and concern amongst the fanbase and especially here. Outside of Buddy and Jesse we haven’t seen the kind of off season development we were conditioned to for many years unless you go back over a decade to someone who truly developed like Gbinije. Instead we’ve see freshmen have little to no improvement , 4 year guys never find consistency and other guys just leave. To say it’s hard to be anything but gun shy to lean into what should be expected over the off season , even in this era, is an understatement.

I don’t think I’d be anywhere near calling it a miracle. It’s simply just not been something we’ve experienced for a while. Even Donnie, as talented as he was came in and was both injury prone as well as clearly not getting much that helped his game from the previous staff whether that’s all on them or him - point is it didn’t workout , another top rated freshman who didn’t pan out or left or both.

So while a hill to climb it may be- that is in large part the only way to get there. This staff now has experience and a background with both specializing on offense or defense and player development. How much they impacted the Siena kids is hard to say but there is evidence of growth there. I’d still like another impact player be it Nate coming back or another lead guard who is starting quality. That said this is part of why you go out and build a talented staff.

 

[MikeSU02]

This snippet and especially the bolded part probably drives 90 pct if not more of the negativity and concern amongst the fanbase and especially here. Outside of Buddy and Jesse we haven’t seen the kind of off season development we were conditioned to for many years unless you go back over a decade to someone who truly developed like Gbinije. Instead we’ve see freshmen have little to no improvement , 4 year guys never find consistency and other guys just leave. To say it’s hard to be anything but gun shy to lean into what should be expected over the off season , even in this era, is an understatement.

I don’t think I’d be anywhere near calling it a miracle. It’s simply just not been something we’ve experienced for a while. Even Donnie, as talented as he was came in and was both injury prone as well as clearly not getting much that helped his game from the previous staff whether that’s all on them or him - point is it didn’t workout , another top rated freshman who didn’t pan out or left or both.

So while a hill to climb it may be- that is in large part the only way to get there. This staff now has experience and a background with both specializing on offense or defense and player development. How much they impacted the Siena kids is hard to say but there is evidence of growth there. I’d still like another impact player be it Nate coming back or another lead guard who is starting quality. That said this is part of why you go out and build a talented staff.

IMO, there are too many hills to climb with our players for it to break our way.

Now, if we get Kingz back or land a diff lead guard, I think that changes thing, materially.

But there is very little chance that the Siena guys break our way in what we would need. They played in low major conference. It's too much of a hill to jump to perform game in and game out.

People make jumps that have innate talent. I'm not sure how much more growth a lot of the guys we have can get to or what their ceiling is just from natural limits.

Hey, hope I'm wrong.

 

[Orangezoo]

IMO, there are too many hills to climb with our players for it to break our way.

Now, if we get Kingz back or land a diff lead guard, I think that changes thing, materially.

But there is very little chance that the Siena guys break our way in what we would need. They played in low major conference. It's too much of a hill to jump to perform game in and game out.

People make jumps that have innate talent. I'm not sure how much more growth a lot of the guys we have can get to or what their ceiling is just from natural limits.

Hey, hope I'm wrong.

That just might be the case. I also think you don’t go get a slightly shorter version of Hines and put AO on the job if there isn’t a legit goal to try and have an offense that runs through the post as well more than a few times a half.

We simply just need to see these kids play together. The what if torture has months to go but until then it’s just a lingering malaise.

 

[MikeSU02]

That just might be the case. I also think you don’t go get a slightly shorter version of Hines and put AO on the job if there isn’t a legit goal to try and have an offense that runs through the post as well more than a few times a half.

We simply just need to see these kids play together. The what if torture has months to go but until then it’s just a lingering malaise.

Sure, but that's every team now. You have to be able to land the plane consistently.

Again, I love GMac's staff. I think you give him last year's roster and we are potentially a bubble team.

But this roster doesn't have naerly the raw talent last year's did. That's ok. We can see where it goes. But we can't just say "hey, we have to see what we got" isn't an excuse.

That is the way this works now. If we had Duke's roster, no one would be saying that. They would expect to be vying for a title and rightly so.

 

[Chip]

If you think Doty, Goodrick, Folefac AND Moesch are all going to be able to work at this level, I have a bridget to sell you.

May I ask for a picture of Bridget before I decide to buy?

 

[MikeSU02]

May I ask for a picture of Bridget before I decide to buy?

Haha, touche.

 

[Orangezoo]

Sure, but that's every team now. You have to be able to land the plane consistently.

Again, I love GMac's staff. I think you give him last year's roster and we are potentially a bubble team.

But this roster doesn't have naerly the raw talent last year's did. That's ok. We can see where it goes. But we can't just say "hey, we have to see what we got" isn't an excuse.

That is the way this works now. If we had Duke's roster, no one would be saying that. They would expect to be vying for a title and rightly so.

So not sure how to say it without seemingly argumentative( don’t mean to comd
Off that way at all )but there aren’t that many kids we missed on this cycle that would fall in line with being head and shoulders above the rest a worth spending over 30 pct of the budget if not 40 pct. I just don’t see it. I’m admittedly a PITA in asking what the roster should realistically look like 1-8 where we both make a splash and build a complete team while keeping in mind injury history and risk and financials. That ideal 1-8 may just not exist for anyone under 15 mil etc…

Some of the guys ( so I’m not just generalizing) included Freeman who chose Auburn and also chose being fine to just be a rotation guy. That would have been a bigger name but probably a downgrade from the App State kid when you factor everything in.

The other included Wilkins who it seems we almost got. I suspect the feeling with him would have people much more excited despite the fact he played at Furman , 5th in the SoCon, rail thin and turnover prone. He put up some big numbers but also made some plays that won’t ever fly in the ACC, essentially the same concerns with the Siena kids.

Cox went home to LA- solid player but still coming from one of the weakest conferences and hard to place his game at this level but maybe that is the biggest miss if we truly “missed”.

Just my personal opinion but I just don’t see that many guys that separate themselves in the portal this year beyond a handful or two. So not sure what the answer is in that case in terms of building a team. Pitt is getting praise more than us for their class because of the P5 experience but that’s all fools gold when you get below portal rankings.

 

[Cusefan0307]

We should stop calling Moesch a Siena guy. He never played there. He would have been their highest rated recruit ever. The guys next to him in the rankings are going to Kansas, Clemson, SMU, Oklahoma State, and Gonzaga.

Keaton Wagler was ranked below Moesch last year. Brandin Cummings from Pitt was ranked where Moesch is two years ago.

Guys in the 100-150 range go to power conference schools.

He went to Siena because of Gmac.

 

[RedtheGOB]

Let's assume Folefac commits. Team is (grabbing the list from Scooch 's post and adding FF):

Dual
Tobiason
Doty
Anthony
Moesch
MMM
White
Folefac
Goodrick
Wilson
Siby

11 guys. And re Folefac, we have people waiting on pins and needles for that kid who was a MAAC player.

Our starting five has to be (because we need two guys starting that can functionally shoot a jump shot just from form):
Dual
Tobiason
Kiyan or MMM
White
Wilson

That means we are looking at potentially 3-4 Siena guys in the rotation as backups. A third place Siena team in the MAAC and then a starting guard who every single defender will be going under on a ball screen up top. Every single one.

We had to bring in GMac and bring the money. We were building our roster bench first. Doty and Moesch have been getting the upstate NY friends and family treatment.

Barring a miracle (which could still happen), this team is banking on a jump from Kiyan, MMM being all of the five stars that Givony said and a majority of unproven guys at this level to break our way. If you think Doty, Goodrick, Folefac AND Moesch are all going to be able to work at this level, I have a bridget to sell you. We will be lucky if one can be a legit rotation guy/borderline starter on a competitive ACC team and maybe a spot minutes guy. Again, for a competing ACC team.

Now y'all can go back to arguing about policies.

Just to take this further. I think most will agree we have the Defensive pedigree to hang with let's say 14 of the 18 teams in the ACC.

So every post so far has been on the offensive production and the risks of it not translating to the ACC. I don't have problem with this except for just the repetitiveness. Basically every post starts, well we like the guy but can he shoot and score in the ACC.

When I look at the ACC as a whole, 8-9 ACC rosters are worse than ours and have been crushed by the portal and then 5-6 other ACC rosters are comparable to ours. Then there is clear separation between Duke, UVA, Louisville and maybe UNC and the rest. Maybe that means the ACC is on it's way to a down year or just a top heavy year but it should not matter with tournament expansion to 76 and 9 ACC teams making it. That's the ACC wide view.

On the offensive concerns. No arguing the prior year shooting %'s and midmajor pedigrees. What will translate though:

-FT %. Someone can check my math but we left 7 points a game on the line last year. Bringing our FT% up to a top 100 FT shooting team (we should be higher than this actually) would be ~5 more points a game for us.

-Rebounding %. There is no way rebounding takes a step back with this roster and coach. We were a terrible rebounding team due to lack of effort with the backcourt and strength with the front court. We can use the Midmajor excuse about our guys but on paper this team is taller, longer, and heavier at every position than last year. More rebounds means more 2nd chance points. These back up Siena kids outrebounded Duke a top 5 rebounding team most of that game.

-Turnovers, no need to hammer this point since it's been said alot already above. This metric doesn't get enough attention because it's a assumed that for big money players it won't be a problem. Well let me tell you fellas about the millions we spent on George, JJ, and Donnie just to see the ball fumbled and unforced I might add. Almost 200 turnovers between those 3 this season.

 

[MikeSU02]

We should stop calling Moesch a Siena guy. He never played there. He would have been their highest rated recruit ever. The guys next to him in the rankings are going to Kansas, Clemson, SMU, Oklahoma State, and Gonzaga.

Keaton Wagler was ranked below Moesch last year. Brandin Cummings from Pitt was ranked where Moesch is two years ago.

Guys in the 100-150 range go to power conference schools.

He went to Siena because of Gmac.

Were those guys next to him also shorter than six foot and weighing 175 pounds? If not, it's not apples to apples. And I'd argue those teams are also in a better spot to take a flyer on a guy even if so.

Also, Wagler is not the usual, he is an outlier. He's also a 6'6" guard.

Again, we're wishcasting a level of luck to break out way that is just not reality for us to be a truly competitive top ACC team.

 

[Cappy3]

We should stop calling Moesch a Siena guy. He never played there. He would have been their highest rated recruit ever. The guys next to him in the rankings are going to Kansas, Clemson, SMU, Oklahoma State, and Gonzaga.

Keaton Wagler was ranked below Moesch last year. Brandin Cummings from Pitt was ranked where Moesch is two years ago.

Guys in the 100-150 range go to power conference schools.

He went to Siena because of Gmac.

But according to the recruiting services the only power conference offer he had was from Providence. We didn’t offer until Gmac was appointed.

 

[Rchbller999]

We also aren't the only team still in the process of building out the roster. These teams don't have a starting center on their current roster:

UNC
Arizona State
BYU
Oklahoma State
Texas Tech
Georgia
LSU
Mississippi State
Seton Hall
Villanova

All P5, all with large NIL budgets outside of Seton Hall, Miss St.

 

[Cusefan0307]

Were those guys next to him also shorter than six foot and weighing 175 pounds? If not, it's not apples to apples. And I'd argue those teams are also in a better spot to take a flyer on a guy even if so.

Also, Wagler is not the usual, he is an outlier. He's also a 6'6" guard.

Again, we're wishcasting a level of luck to break out way that is just not reality for us to be a truly competitive top ACC team.

Again, he’s the same size as other guards. I’m not wishcasting anything. There are was a specific strategy used to build this roster. It focused on positional size, defense and valuing the ball. I’m not guaranteeing it’s going to work, but I can see how it can.

 

[Cusefan0307]

But according to the recruiting services the only power conference offer he had was from Providence. We didn’t offer until Gmac was appointed.

Guess what? I don't care. He was player of the year in the Nepsac and produced against elite HS/AAU competition for two years. This isn't some kid playing against bum upstate NY kids.

 

[littlereg]

some of yall have become increasingly egotistical, emotional and insufferable over the last few weeks. 5 stars bust sometimes, 3 stars severely outplay their rankings sometimes. The rankings can be wrong sometimes but they still show a clear picture of where a majority of the talent will come from. Theres a reason only 5-10% of 4 stars make the nba and only 20-30% will become an all conference performer in college. Outliers can always happen in both directions. Moesch is a 4 star, played in a top league and competed ar the top of said league. I don’t like or trust going into the year as him being the backup 1 because the odds of that working out as a freshman are low, but it’s not impossible. It’s a combination of things for me besides just how Moesch will perform. All the other “what ifs” or banking on improvements at so many different spots is scary because the odds aren’t in your favor that a majority of that will play out in your way. We’ve all heavily discussed the lack of shooting and that’s not his game, nor is it duals game so finding a balance of offense at the 1 looks concerning right now. If defenses are continually collapsing on our lead guards when they attack, especially in the PNR, with the lack of current supported evidence of shooters to spread the court, where will that lead? There’s reason for concern and there’s reason for optimism it’s just concerning when you leaving everything to so many what ifs, but that’s also the state your program is put into when you have an unknown coach at this level. The talent will matter, but how the talent is pieced together and coached will matter just as much.

 

[Orangezoo]

There’s reason for concern and there’s reason for optimism it’s just concerning when you leaving everything to so many what ifs, but that’s also the state your program is put into when you have an unknown coach at this level. The talent will matter, but how the talent is pieced together and coached will matter just as much.

Essentially what 90 pct of us are saying and all agree on no matter the back and forth nitpicks .

 

[littlereg]

Essentially what 90 pct of us are saying and all agree on no matter the back and forth nitpicks .

Next thing you know it’s pickforks vs torches the next time you look back haha

 

[Orangezoo]

Next thing you know it’s pickforks vs torches the next time you look back haha

Hey at least we don’t burn couches…