OT - All Time NBA team

[orange03]

Wilt overwhelmed a lot of centers he played against because he was freakishly strong and athletic, not because they were undersized and untalented. There were many tremendous centers in Wilt's era (Russell, Reed, Lanier, Hayes, Unseld, Thurmond, Bellamy, Lucas, Jabbar, Cowens) and most of them had more well-rounded games than the guys you see playing the position today.

I suspect Wilt would have dominated in any era, just as Jim Brown would have dominated on the football field in any era.

Could be, I just think Olajuwon in his prime years was unbelievable. I think Wilt would have an easier time at it than Jim Brown would against modern guys.

 

[DallasCuse]

Bird is a great player and a great competitor, but that's not needed on this team... Def want defense. Leron starts.

Was a big fan of Ellis as well, but don't think he starts on this team.

 

[DallasCuse]

Wilt overwhelmed a lot of centers he played against because he was freakishly strong and athletic, not because they were undersized and untalented. There were many tremendous centers in Wilt's era (Russell, Reed, Lanier, Hayes, Unseld, Thurmond, Bellamy, Lucas, Jabbar, Cowens) and most of them had more well-rounded games than the guys you see playing the position today.

I suspect Wilt would have dominated in any era, just as Jim Brown would have dominated on the football field in any era.

Most of the guys you mention Wilt did have a ridiculous size advantage over. Wilt was a legit 7' 1". Russell - 6'9", Reed - 6'8", Hayes 6'9", Unseld 6'7", Lucas 6'8", Cowens 6'9". Lanier, Cowens really only faced him for the last couple years of his career.

However, your last sentence is spot on.

 

[CusefanATL]

Was a big fan of Ellis as well, but don't think he starts on this team.

He could start on this team and they would still go undefeated from now until the end of time.

 

[br801]

Most of the guys you mention Wilt did have a ridiculous size advantage over. Wilt was a legit 7' 1". Russell - 6'9", Reed - 6'8", Hayes 6'9", Unseld 6'7", Lucas 6'8", Cowens 6'9". Lanier, Cowens really only faced him for the last couple years of his career.

However, your last sentence is spot on.

I never said Wilt didn't have a size advantage over most of the centers of his day, as he certainly did. I just meant to illustrate he played against many legitimately talented centers and pulled some names off the top of my head (I believe all the guys I listed are Hall of Famers). Remember, in those days there were fewer teams and the talent pool wasn't spread as thin as it is now, so Wilt was facing a very good center quite often. And you're right, he only faced some of those guys at the end of his career but he more than held his own against them even then.

 

[MCC]

I personally would want Kareem on my first team.

He may have been relatively quiet and uncharismatic, but the skyhook worked on everyone (cue Gary Oldman from The Professional: "EVVVVRYYOOOOONNE...!!!"). He was an excellent defender and rebounder despite the decline in the latter in his last few years.

He won 6 MVPs, 6 rings, 2 playoff MVPs. Very competitive, very clutch (you can definitely make a case that Wilt, despite his freakish athleticism, was less than clutch, and many have questioned his competitiveness). Was essentially injury-free throughout his career.

Again, what it comes down to (in my opinion) is that no one is stopping that skyhook, he hits it at close to 60% for his career, if fouled he drains over 70% from the line, outstanding shotblocker, very athletic (the antithesis of a plodding center), and one of the ultimate winners.

An aside: Kareem put up 46 and 42 (IIRC) in two regular season games against Olajuwon and Ralph Sampson (both on the Rockets at the time) when he was 38 or 39 years old. Hakeem was not yet in his prime I believe, but still... ridiculous.

 

[CusefanATL]

I never realized Russell was only 6'9 and even more shocking was he played at 215...

I don't know how much his game would translate to today's nba (I'm sure he would still be very good) just not as dominant.

 

[RoysRunts]

In light of recent events, I've updated my All Time NBA team - As this is always an arbitrary exercise, I try to rank players on the impact they had when they were in the league rather than how they would fair against each other.

Starters
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson

Reserves
Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Hakeem Olajuwon

Last two off
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson

I kept going back and forth between Olajuwon and Shaq. I hope this creates a good debate.

Bob Pettit

 

[br801]

Bob Pettit

Guys like Bob Pettit and Dolph Schayes were clearly exceptional talents. My own memories of the NBA begin in the late 1960s, so I've only seen film clips of those guys and their contemporaries. I'd love to hear from you or other posters who might have seen them play.

 

[Knicks411]

You are not wrong, it was a totally different game, but to me if you are not going to include Oscar then you shouldn't include Wilt or Russell either. They played in different era's as well.

I think you have to give everybody equal standing for dominating in their own era. Otherwise where do you make the cut off? Magic and Bird dominated in an era when there was no defense played at all, and both are too slow to play in today's NBA where the speed of the players and the defensive intensity is off the charts. Even Jordan did his thing against guards like Jeff Hornaceck. He would find things much more difficult in today's NBA.

But in my opinion all of those guys earned their due respect by being the best in the world at the game that was played at their time.

Sorry, I only meant that in terms of Oscar averaging a triple double. It was easier to do it in that era than any other era because of the pace of the game. Didn't mean to say he, or anyone else from that era, didn't deserve to be included in this list or anything. He's clearly one of the 10-15 best basketball players of all time.

 

[Eric15]

In light of recent events, I've updated my All Time NBA team - As this is always an arbitrary exercise, I try to rank players on the impact they had when they were in the league rather than how they would fair against each other.

Starters
Wilt Chamberlain
Bill Russell
Larry Bird
Michael Jordan
Magic Johnson

Reserves
Kareem Abdul-Jabaar
Tim Duncan
LeBron James
Kobe Bryant
Jerry West
Elgin Baylor
Hakeem Olajuwon

Last two off
Shaquille O'Neal
Oscar Robertson

I kept going back and forth between Olajuwon and Shaq. I hope this creates a good debate.

It won't be much longer that I'll be ready to flip-flop Lebron and Bird on this list - maybe two more seasons.

Also, I think your list accurately portrays the top dozen players in league history, but it's probably not as position balanced (4 centers, 1 point guard) as it should be if you're putting together a legitimate roster. I think I would bump Russell into the reserves, bump Olajuwon into "last two off", move either Duncan or Baylor (or maybe Karl Malone) into the starting PF spot, and then add either Robertson or John Stockton as Magic's backup point guard.

 

[Eric15]

ummm julius erving. he starts on my team.
36 points 32 rebounds against the cuse.

If performances against Syracuse affect this, is Keith Friel starting on your team, as well?

Dr. J. was a 2 guard, are you benching Jordan?

 

[br801]

If performances against Syracuse affect this, is Keith Friel starting on your team, as well?

Dr. J. was a 2 guard, are you benching Jordan?

Julius Erving was a pure 3. If you were creating the perfect small forward in a lab, he might be what you would come up with.

 

[Knicks411]

Also, I think your list accurately portrays the top dozen players in league history, but it's probably not as position balanced (4 centers, 1 point guard) as it should be if you're putting together a legitimate roster. I think I would bump Russell into the reserves, bump Olajuwon into "last two off", move either Duncan or Baylor (or maybe Karl Malone) into the starting PF spot, and then add either Robertson or John Stockton as Magic's backup point guard.

Yeah, is the idea justr the top 12 players or whatever of all time, or an actual team? If it's a team, maybe you even want a guy like Ray Allen or Reggie Miller to hit some 3's.

 

[br801]

Yeah, is the idea justr the top 12 players or whatever of all time, or an actual team? If it's a team, maybe you even want a guy like Ray Allen or Reggie Miller to hit some 3's.

That's a good point. And how some of the earlier stars would have fared with the 3-point shot makes for interesting speculation. I believe Jerry West would have been an excellent 3-point shooter, and obviously a guy like Pete Maravich would have thrived.

Rick Barry is another guy who would have been great in the 3-point era (and an outstanding player who deserves mention in this thread.) Barry actually played a bit in the ABA and was one of the better 3-point shooters there as I recall. But the old ABA line was farther out (it was a legitimate 25 feet along most of the arc, I believe) so it's hard to compare shooting percentages to today's players. Also, in those days the 3-point shot was used less frequently (mainly out of desperation when you were trailing) and wasn't an integral part of most team's offenses.

 

[RandygoCuse]

It won't be much longer that I'll be ready to flip-flop Lebron and Bird on this list - maybe two more seasons.

Also, I think your list accurately portrays the top dozen players in league history, but it's probably not as position balanced (4 centers, 1 point guard) as it should be if you're putting together a legitimate roster. I think I would bump Russell into the reserves, bump Olajuwon into "last two off", move either Duncan or Baylor (or maybe Karl Malone) into the starting PF spot, and then add either Robertson or John Stockton as Magic's backup point guard.

I wanted to take into account the best players and not go striclty by point guard, shooting guard, small forward, powerforward, center. At the same time, I did want it to look like an actual team so I "cheated" a little on the positions. I moved Russell to power forward and either Kobe or West would serve as a backup point guard.
For those of you who are Bill Simmons fans, he put together a list of players on a (hypothetical) team used to defend the human race. He had players like Ray Allen, Chris Paul, and Kevein McHale on it. Although most people would not have these players in their to 12, he argued these are the type of guys that can create the most matchup problemes against their opponents. I believe the whole team is as follows:

Kareem
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Jordan

Walton
McHale
Lebron
Wade
Paul
Allen
Pippen

 

[CusefanATL]

Rick Barry is another guy who would have been great in the 3-point era (and an outstanding player who deserves mention in this thread.) Barry actually played a bit in the ABA and was one of the better 3-point shooters there as I recall. But the old ABA line was farther out (it was a legitimate 25 feet along most of the circle I believe) so it's hard to compare shooting percentages to today's players. Also, in those days the 3-point shot was used less frequently (mainly out of desperation when you were trailing) and wasn't an integral part of most team's offenses.

Some players may veto him like they did Isiah for the dream team. almost positive Jerry West would.

 

[br801]

Some players may veto him like they did Isiah for the dream team. almost positive Jerry West would.

No doubt Rick Barry was (and is) a polarizing character. But the guy was a great shooter and scorer and a very good passer, not to mention one of the best free throw shooters ever. Had he played today he would be a popular topic of discussion in the media.

 

[MCC]

I wanted to take into account the best players and not go striclty by point guard, shooting guard, small forward, powerforward, center. At the same time, I did want it to look like an actual team so I "cheated" a little on the positions. I moved Russell to power forward and either Kobe or West would serve as a backup point guard.
For those of you who are Bill Simmons fans, he put together a list of players on a (hypothetical) team used to defend the human race. He had players like Ray Allen, Chris Paul, and Kevein McHale on it. Although most people would not have these players in their to 12, he argued these are the type of guys that can create the most matchup problemes against their opponents. I believe the whole team is as follows:

Kareem
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Jordan

Walton
McHale
Lebron
Wade
Paul
Allen
Pippen

Interesting thought process WRT to matchup problems, but I'm struggling to understand how Wade would create more problems than Kobe in their respective primes. Kobe has / had such an array of moves on offense, and was much better at posting up than Wade, not to mention a truly lockdown defender in his prime. Better at the line and - I think - from 3. And the consummate killer competitor.

I'm also not sure I see Pippen's value. Finally, I think I might swap in Olajuwon and take out McHale or Walton - Olajuwon was a much better defender than McHale, and better offensively than Walton. I'm not sure I see McHale being that much better on offense or Walton that much better on D / boards than Hakeem. Add to that Hakeem's quickness and he becomes another weapon on the break - McHale and Walton just didn't have the footspeed or lateral quickness to do what Hakeem could.

[An aside: I can't stand Bill Simmons' work, and my reply may be biased as a result.]

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah, you even look at most 1980's stats; very few teams shot 3 pointers then.

The most 3 pointers Larry Bird ever attempted in a season was 198. There were 67 players in the league who took that many this season, and it was a shortened season to boot.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Interesting thought process WRT to matchup problems, but I'm struggling to understand how Wade would create more problems than Kobe in their respective primes. Kobe has / had such an array of moves on offense, and was much better at posting up than Wade, not to mention a truly lockdown defender in his prime. Better at the line and - I think - from 3. And the consummate killer competitor.

I'm also not sure I see Pippen's value. Finally, I think I might swap in Olajuwon and take out McHale or Walton - Olajuwon was a much better defender than McHale, and better offensively than Walton. I'm not sure I see McHale being that much better on offense or Walton that much better on D / boards than Hakeem. Add to that Hakeem's quickness and he becomes another weapon on the break - McHale and Walton just didn't have the footspeed or lateral quickness to do what Hakeem could.

[An aside: I can't stand Bill Simmons' work, and my reply may be biased as a result.]

I agree with you on most of this - I think he didn't like Kobe because he felt that Kobe wouldn't be able to play with all the other stars. Also, because (and I am a Simmons fan) Simmons has a pretty obvious anit Lakers/Kobe bias. I Kobe has won championships as both the MVP and playing alongside the MVP, so arguing that he couldn't fit in doesn't seem fair. I concur on taking Olajuwon over Walton. I never saw Walton play in his prime, so I can only go by numbers. Even when he was healthy, I'm not sure why he blew anyone away in the NBA. I feel like his college legacy has given him a lot of attention. In any case, I don't think there is much he could do that Olajuwon couldn't do better.
As for McHale, I would want to keep him. Maybe it's my Celtics bias, but nobody liked guarding McHale. With his moves and long arms, he was a nightmare for defenders. I guess LeBron does make Pippen pretty redundant, so I may put Garnett on the team over Pippen.

 

[garnermike]

This will get me bashed, but I don't have Russel in my starting 5. Can only have one player per position (and the standard 5 positions of C, PG, SG, PF and SF) in my view, and Wilt is the C. I have Labron starting at SF. Russell is a reserve. He was better than Wilt on D, but so far behind Wilt on O, I just can't have him at starting C.

 

[Eric15]

I'm also not sure I see Pippen's value.

He provides unlimited versatility to your roster. He essentially can play and defend any position 1-4, if needed.

 

[tbonezone]

anyone else remember that red white and blue ball ???
dr.j alone pretty much made them change up the whole friggin' league.
and if you got an extra slot second team to add a defender ... how about walt frazier or bobby jones.

 

[Knicks411]

Yeah, I think if the idea is from Simmons book, where the entire point of the thing is to win a basketball game to save the planet or whatever, then you want a guy like Pippen. He can guard 1-4, he doesn't need the ball; he will basically do whatever you need to do to win a game.

Wade vs Kobe is a tough one; I think Kobe's argument is more longevity than anything. Wade's peak I think is a little better.

For the team, you must be missing Russell, right? Or it seems like it's all post 1980 guys. That must be it