OT - All Time NBA team

[MCC]

He provides unlimited versatility to your roster. He essentially can play and defend any position 1-4, if needed.

I am sympathetic to the versatility argument, but IMO there is no way Pippen is guarding legit 4's. He would be totally overpowered and overwhelmed trying to cover Duncan, McHale, Olajuwon (who absolutely could be used as a 4 next to Kareem, Wilt, etc.) or any number of top 4's throughout history. He's certainly not keeping any of those guys off the boards. He would be a tough cover for those same 4's, but I can live with that as he's not a Jordan, Kobe etc. on offense. I can't recall if he could cover 1's - seems he was long and rangy, and had good lateral quickness... if anyone can provide examples I'd be keen to hear them.

I guess I find myself gravitating toward guys who were outstanding at several things, where as Pippen was very good at almost everything... but not outstanding. I'll ask why folks think versatility is so important - in case someone gets in foul trouble? I keep coming back to this: if you've got the 5 best guys at every position on the floor, and the next best 5 at each position on the bench, why is versatility relevant?

 

[MCC]

Yeah, I think if the idea is from Simmons book, where the entire point of the thing is to win a basketball game to save the planet or whatever, then you want a guy like Pippen. He can guard 1-4, he doesn't need the ball; he will basically do whatever you need to do to win a game.

Wade vs Kobe is a tough one; I think Kobe's argument is more longevity than anything. Wade's peak I think is a little better.

For the team, you must be missing Russell, right? Or it seems like it's all post 1980 guys. That must be it

Kobe's peak reg seasons are 30/7/6, 32/6/5 and 35/6/5. Playoff peaks are about the same.

Wade's peak reg seasons are 30/6/5 and 27/6/7. Playoff peaks are 28/6/6 and 33/6/7.

Hard to say who was better but if you look at their career stats (I just checked nba.com) Kobe has more of those 30/5/5 type seasons including playoffs. Wade's output is diminishing; granted, playing with Lebron has cut his stats, but he is also showing lots of wear and tear. I concur that you've got to give longevity to Kobe. A quick check of the stats (steals) and 1st team all-Defense 8x favor Kobe; only 3x 2nd team all-D for Wade (apologies if I'm off by one somewhere, but it's so heavily in Kobe's favor that it seems OK to be inexact here).

RE: Russell - I just think that the game has advanced significantly in terms of skill, athleticism and speed that it's pointless to try to include players from the 60's (with the exception of Wilt). Russell would still be very good if you took his 60's incarnation and transplanted to today, but I can't imagine him dominating. I've seen plenty of tape of 60's NBA and have tremendous respect for the game and the players, but they just weren't on the same level, all IMO of course.

 

[OrangeCrush22]

5.)Wilt Chamberlain
4.)LeBron James
3.)Michael Jordan
2.)Kobe Bryant
1.)Magic Johnson

 

[MCC]

5.)Wilt Chamberlain
4.)LeBron James
3.)Michael Jordan
2.)Kobe Bryant
1.)Magic Johnson

Not a bad selection at all, but I think perimeter shooting is a weakness. I'd swap Bird in for Lebron to fix that. Bird put up Lebron-type numbers in his prime and was a deadly shooter, including at the line.

Worth noting is that Wilt sucked at the line. I think his stats were ridiculous, but I don't believe he would have averaged anywhere near 50 a game today. I suspect he would have been the equal of Shaq, maybe better because he was faster / more mobile - hard to say. I like Kareem at the 5 for reasons outlined in my earlier posts - I realize he's not well liked but if we're talking "save the planet" game, I'm going with Cap.

Another thought: I wonder if your team might get hurt on the boards. I realize the team has good size overall but Wilt is the only dominant rebounder.

Final thought: are Kobe and MJ able to coexist? Two serious alphas with somewhat similar games.

 

[AlaskaSU]

All right everyone, sit back and laugh. Bill Walton, in the short bursts when he was healthy he led the league in rebounds, blocked shots, first team D, and he shot something like 100%, or at least it seemed like that when I watched him at the Rose Garden. He destroyed Kareem in the W. finals with a sketchy supporting cast, ( to be fair it was probably past KA's prime) and the next year the Jailblazers won 60/70 games before he got injured, as was par for the course. Guy had freakish hand eye coordination but he had Greg Oden syndrome x 2.

 

[MCC]

All right everyone, sit back and laugh. Bill Walton, in the short bursts when he was healthy he led the league in rebounds, blocked shots, first team D, and he shot something like 100%, or at least it seemed like that when I watched him at the Rose Garden. He destroyed Kareem in the W. finals with a sketchy supporting cast, ( to be fair it was probably past KA's prime) and the next year the Jailblazers won 60/70 games before he got injured, as was par for the course. Guy had freakish hand eye coordination but he had Greg Oden syndrome x 2.

The "destruction of Kareem" thing is so overblown. I have to look up all the stats, but at least in scoring it was an utter mismatch in Kareem's favor.

KAJ scored 30, 40, 21, 30 for a 4 game average of 30.3ppg

Walton put up 22, 14, 22, 19 for a 4 game average of 19.3ppg

I'll try to find rebounding and blocked shot numbers - it may prove difficult.

And am I correct in interpreting your post to say that Walton had a sketchy supporting cast? Kareem was the one with the sketchy supporting cast. Walton had all-star Maurice Lucas at the 4; he also had Lionel Hollins, a very good 1. Kareem had no one of all-star quality that I can identify. So I'm open to being proven wrong, but I really think it's ridiculous to make a case for Walton destroying Kareem in this instance (or at any other point for that matter). The Blazers as a team certainly wiped out LA, no question.

[If anyone can find the rebounding and blocks stats that would really help - I'll keep looking as well.]

[EDIT: I was wrong in stating that Walton had Walter Davis at the 2; it was Johnny Davis.]

 

[MCC]

All right everyone, sit back and laugh. Bill Walton, in the short bursts when he was healthy he led the league in rebounds, blocked shots, first team D, and he shot something like 100%, or at least it seemed like that when I watched him at the Rose Garden. He destroyed Kareem in the W. finals with a sketchy supporting cast, ( to be fair it was probably past KA's prime) and the next year the Jailblazers won 60/70 games before he got injured, as was par for the course. Guy had freakish hand eye coordination but he had Greg Oden syndrome x 2.

One other quick note: I'm not arguing that you saw several impressive shooting performances by Walton (and to be clear I'm a fan of his as well), but he never shot over 56.2% from the floor for a full season, and that was near the end of his career with the Celtics in limited PT.

In his 4 years with Portland he shot .513, .471, .528 and .522. Those percentages are really unremarkable compared to guys like Kareem (yes, again) who shot 55.9% from the field for his career and had many years in the 57% - 60% range even with the volume of shots he took.

Not trying to denigrate Walton's accomplishments (especially when healthy) as he was a terrific rebounder, defender and one of the best passing center's of all time... but he's not top 5 at C. I might put him on the all-time squad at the 4 though assuming he's healthy.

 

[Knicks411]

Not a bad selection at all, but I think perimeter shooting is a weakness. I'd swap Bird in for Lebron to fix that. Bird put up Lebron-type numbers in his prime and was a deadly shooter, including at the line.

If you're going to put Bird in, I would put him in for Kobe, and move everyone closer to their normal position. Jordan at the 2, then Bird/Lebron at forwards.

 

[MCC]

If you're going to put Bird in, I would put him in for Kobe, and move everyone closer to their normal position. Jordan at the 2, then Bird/Lebron at forwards.

You're right - your idea is better. Kobe and MJ both play 2 and you only need one... it has to be MJ.

 

[Melancer46]

Are we talking about just a team of the best players or trying to create the best team possible?

If it's the latter, I think I'd go:
PG: John Stockton
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Larry Bird
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Bill Russell

Ball-handler/distributors in Stockton and Bird, but Bird can also work without the ball well. MJ is self-explanatory. Russell doesn't need the ball to be effective, so he complements those guys well, and Duncan gives you a low-post scorer but he can also open up the paint a little bit and not crowd Russell.

 

[MCC]

Are we talking about just a team of the best players or trying to create the best team possible?

If it's the latter, I think I'd go:
PG: John Stockton
SG: Michael Jordan
SF: Larry Bird
PF: Tim Duncan
C: Bill Russell

Ball-handler/distributors in Stockton and Bird, but Bird can also work without the ball well. MJ is self-explanatory. Russell doesn't need the ball to be effective, so he complements those guys well, and Duncan gives you a low-post scorer but he can also open up the paint a little bit and not crowd Russell.

Interesting. Curious: why would you pick Stockton over Magic? I can't think of anything Stockton can do that Magic can't (was JS a much better perimeter shooter?) and Magic is 7 inches taller, thus creating huge matchup problems for most guards. Also curious as to why Russell over Kareem or Wilt? Russell certainly was the best defender of his day (no one else was even close) and the consummate teammate, but he really wouldn't bring much on offense. Yes he doesn't need the ball, but why not have five guys that can put up lots of points if needed? Not sure if Russell has the scoring ability to be much of a threat, which could allow annoying double teams on Duncan or elsewhere.

 

[Knicks411]

Stockton was a much much better shooter. But I'd take Magic

 

[Melancer46]

Interesting. Curious: why would you pick Stockton over Magic? I can't think of anything Stockton can do that Magic can't (was JS a much better perimeter shooter?) and Magic is 7 inches taller, thus creating huge matchup problems for most guards. Also curious as to why Russell over Kareem or Wilt? Russell certainly was the best defender of his day (no one else was even close) and the consummate teammate, but he really wouldn't bring much on offense. Yes he doesn't need the ball, but why not have five guys that can put up lots of points if needed? Not sure if Russell has the scoring ability to be much of a threat, which could allow annoying double teams on Duncan or elsewhere.

Like Knicks411 said, Stockton was a knock down shooter. Over 40% from 3 point range for the majority of his career. I think his perimeter shooting and defense make him a better fit for a team that I build around MJ. Magic was a liability defensively.

Went with Russell because like I said, he doesn't need the ball to be effective. I don't think there would be enough shots to go around between MJ, Bird, Duncan, and a guy like Wilt or Abdul Jabar. Russell is a good fit because he would dominate the glass, play elite defense, and he was very agile for a center along with being a great outlet passer, so he would do wonders in fast break situations and he was also smart enough to cut off the ball so if teams tried to double Duncan, Russell could flash to the hoop for easy points.

 

[MCC]

Like Knicks411 said, Stockton was a knock down shooter. Over 40% from 3 point range for the majority of his career. I think his perimeter shooting and defense make him a better fit for a team that I build around MJ. Magic was a liability defensively.

Went with Russell because like I said, he doesn't need the ball to be effective. I don't think there would be enough shots to go around between MJ, Bird, Duncan, and a guy like Wilt or Abdul Jabar. Russell is a good fit because he would dominate the glass, play elite defense, and he was very agile for a center along with being a great outlet passer, so he would do wonders in fast break situations and he was also smart enough to cut off the ball so if teams tried to double Duncan, Russell could flash to the hoop for easy points.

There's clearly a lot to debate here: I'm not sure I'd call Magic a defensive liability; he led the league in steals two years in a row and was in the top ten a few other years. I can't think of any guards who would be able to post him up, whereas any big guard could have posted Stockton. JS was was elite with the thefts though. Magic was also the ultimate orchestrator of the fast break, and I can't think of a much easier way to score points, so I'd take him over JS. I think it's hard to say who's better in the half court, what with JS's success with Malone in the pick and roll. In sum I'd keep Magic at point.

RE: Kareem v. Russell: Kareem was an elite defender as well; led the league in blocks 4x and was 1st team all-D 5x, 2nd team 6x. Very agile as well, was long rather than wide, the antithesis of the plodding center. In his prime he was as close to a gazelle as you'll get with someone 7'2". Also an excellent passer averaging 4 - 5 assists per game for the first half of his career - very good for a volume shooter and one of the league's top scorers. I'd still take Kareem at the 5.

Anyway, good debate here with some intriguing perspectives that surely arise from our different perspectives on who you need to get the W.

 

[Knicks411]

RE: Kareem v. Russell: Kareem was an elite defender as well; led the league in blocks 4x and was 1st team all-D 5x, 2nd team 6x. Very agile as well, was long rather than wide, the antithesis of the plodding center. In his prime he was as close to a gazelle as you'll get with someone 7'2". Also an excellent passer averaging 4 - 5 assists per game for the first half of his career - very good for a volume shooter and one of the league's top scorers. I'd still take Kareem at the 5.

Also, if you needed one bucket and the fate of the human race depended on it, I would probably give it to Kareem and let him sky hook us to freedom.

 

[br801]

Also, if you needed one bucket and the fate of the human race depended on it, I would probably give it to Kareem and let him sky hook us to freedom.

Nicely stated and a great choice. But I'd give to Wilt on the low block and have him back down his defender and just let him power over him for the putback if he happened to miss. And I'd hope the refs swallow their whistles.

 

[Eric15]

Also, if you needed one bucket and the fate of the human race depended on it, I would probably give it to Kareem and let him sky hook us to freedom.

Not me. I'm giving the ball to Ross DiLiegro at the top of the key and letting him break ankles.