OT: doctors and coaches worry that kids are playing too much basketball

[HOFCeluck]

I’m la fan of the idea that after years of publishing studies not one person ever had the realization that “hmmm maybe volume of training is a confounding variable” before Mikey Message Board did.

 

[Townie72]

From what I have seen, playing multiple sports makes you better at each of them.

They are re-inforcing.

 

[sufandu]

Some sports you have to specialize and really can't do other sports. If you are a distance runner, you can't really take a season off because you lose so much. It has to be done all year. However, that does not mean you can't start late. I believe Justyn Knight started somewhat late in running (10th grade) and didn't endure what some kids did by starting early in e.g. 7th grade.

That's not true on the youth level. You can certainly play other sports or do other activities and compete well at the distances youth runners should be running. I think cross country in middle school caps around 2 miles with a little over 3 miles for high school and 2 miles being the longest distance in outdoor spring track in high school. Kids can stay conditioned just fine doing kid things through much of the off season for those distances.

 

[xc84]

That's not true on the youth level. You can certainly play other sports or do other activities and compete well at the distances youth runners should be running. I think cross country in middle school caps around 2 miles with a little over 3 miles for high school and 2 miles being the longest distance in outdoor spring track in high school. Kids can stay conditioned just fine doing kid things through much of the off season for those distances.

What I meant was that once you get serious about it and want to contend at a high level even at 5K. Staying conditioned is a little different if that is the goal. When you run, you build your lung/oxygen carrying capacity. When you stop for a while, it decreases. You will almost never (unless it is a freak of nature) see an e.g. section champ in cross country who takes seasons off.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I’m la fan of the idea that after years of publishing studies not one person ever had the realization that “hmmm maybe volume of training is a confounding variable” before Mikey Message Board did.

Your mom's a confounding variable.

 

[Brooky03]

That's true until you look at the repetitive nature of sport specific drills and that different sports require different ratios of running and jumping.

There have also been studies that show kids should have time during the year when they play no organized sports in order to reduce mental and physical burnout. Playing pickup ball with friends intermixed with riding bikes all over town and swimming in the pool or lake like kids used to do is different than being on a summer travel team.

Agreed. Year-round competing/training is excessive

 

[Brooky03]

I feel like it depends on the position in baseball. Pitching can be extremely strenuous on a young persons arm as throwing overhand is a unnatural motion. And being a catcher can be very rough on your back and hips.

Knee-savers have helped catchers a lot. Pitchers do have it rough. I'll admit pitching is pretty brutal on the body.

 

[Brooky03]

I’m la fan of the idea that after years of publishing studies not one person ever had the realization that “hmmm maybe volume of training is a confounding variable” before Mikey Message Board did.

Do I get to be Mikey Message Board? Oh please say yes. All I've ever wanted in life is to be acknowledged for my wholly unique takes during my internet keyboard crusades that nobody could have ever possibly thought of before because I'm that uniquely smart and awesome!

 

[crv1728]

That's true.

But so is soccer participation by 10%.

This seemed to me to be wrong (maybe because I have been to soooo many soccer tournaments in the past ten years), so I did some research. You are right, youth participation is declining. On the other hand the popularity of the sport for spectators is growing. A Forbes article cited a Gallup Poll, suggested that soccer will be the number 3 sport soon, surpassing baseball.

 

[Brooky03]

To boil down my point, this is a matter of causation.

"Athletes who specialize in one sport are more likely to be injured" is a different statement than "specializing in one sport increases the likelihood of an athlete getting injured."

Parents could read a headline that specialization is bad and decide they have to force their kid to play multiple sports or else they'll get hurt. That would suck. Instead, let the kid stick to one sport if they like it that much, but make sure they're not training like a mad man all year long.

Specialization and over-training are not intrinsically linked.

 

[HOFCeluck]

Your mom's a confounding variable.

YES

 

[crv1728]

As a long time track coach I am disappointed with the dwindling numbers participating in the sport. Very few soccer or basketball players can fit track in around their AAU or travel leagues. I think it is a shame, as many could benefit from becoming better athletes, which track could help with.

 

[sufandu]

What I meant was that once you get serious about it and want to contend at a high level even at 5K. Staying conditioned is a little different if that is the goal. When you run, you build your lung/oxygen carrying capacity. When you stop for a while, it decreases. You will almost never (unless it is a freak of nature) see an e.g. section champ in cross country who takes seasons off.

But that doesn't have anything tp do with the youth sport conversation in thread. How many of those section champs are 7th, 8th, or, 9th graders? By the end of high school it makes sense to start to specialize. There's no reason to do it as a youth runner. Even older runners need to reduce mileage in the off season and mix in strength training to maintain proper gt mechanics and biking and/or swimming to maintain conditioning while allowing joints to recover. There's a reason I saw a bunch of ankle and foot problems when I did outpatient physical therapy.

The fact that you brought up section champs illustrates part of the problem. It seems nearly every coach or parent thinks anything less than a championship is a failure. Nevermind the lifetime of pain, therapy, and surgeries it can lead to, if you throw caution and common sense to the wind to get there.

 

[sufandu]

To boil down my point, this is a matter of causation.

"Athletes who specialize in one sport are more likely to be injured" is a different statement than "specializing in one sport increases the likelihood of an athlete getting injured."

Parents could read a headline that specialization is bad and decide they have to force their kid to play multiple sports or else they'll get hurt. That would suck. Instead, let the kid stick to one sport if they like it that much, but make sure they're not training like a mad man all year long.

Specialization and over-training are not intrinsically linked.

There probably needs to be a distinction made between year round specialization and a kid that plays one organized sport and does other activities in the off season. Maybe a kid is only really good at one sport. He/she still shouldn't do only that one thing. They should do other fun activities/play other sports in an unorganized fashion just for fun.

The problem is that if a kid is good at only one sport, there is even more pressure for them to never take time off from it, especially in this era where parents want to constantly have their kids signed up for some kind of activity. Kids can't just be kids anymore.

 

[xc84]

But that doesn't have anything tp do with the youth sport conversation in thread. How many of those section champs are 7th, 8th, or, 9th graders? By the end of high school it makes sense to start to specialize. There's no reason to do it as a youth runner. Even older runners need to reduce mileage in the off season and mix in strength training to maintain proper gt mechanics and biking and/or swimming to maintain conditioning while allowing joints to recover. There's a reason I saw a bunch of ankle and foot problems when I did outpatient physical therapy.

The fact that you brought up section champs illustrates part of the problem. It seems nearly every coach or parent thinks anything less than a championship is a failure. Nevermind the lifetime of pain, therapy, and surgeries it can lead to, if you throw caution and common sense to the wind to get there.

I wasn't talking about just 7th, 8th, 9th graders nor do I think this thread is solely about them...though there are frequently girls who are sectional champs at those young ages. I am in agreement with you that it is not necessary to run all year long at those ages. That's why I mentioned in my first post of this thread (maybe you missed it) that Justyn Knight started running in 10th grade and look what he did. It is not necessary in running that you start in 7th, 8th grade.

Also, I agree that strength training is beneficial to runners and reducing miles at some point in the year is beneficial. But those are not the same thing as taking months off from running.

My point is if you want to be a really good runner, you have to run all year. If you want to be a really good football player, you don't have to play football all year. Guys like Joe Girard can play football and basketball at high levels.

 

[Townie72]

This seemed to me to be wrong (maybe because I have been to soooo many soccer tournaments in the past ten years), so I did some research. You are right, youth participation is declining. On the other hand the popularity of the sport for spectators is growing. A Forbes article cited a Gallup Poll, suggested that soccer will be the number 3 sport soon, surpassing baseball.

Yeah, but what type of soccer is growing?

I have been to a few exhibition games in the US featuring some top European clubs and they sell out big, big stadiums here.

People here might watch the Premiere League games on weekends or the Champions League, that might be where the growth is. I can see the US audience wanting to watch Messi and Ronaldo, but not the MLS which is an inferior league with inferior players except for a few aging European stars like Rooney winding down their careers. (Any US players of any quality play in Europe.)

I'm not sure the US MLS is all that more popular. Here in DC, their audience seems to depend heavily on "new arrivals" to the US from Central America where futball is king.

I am actually a fan, but I watch only the world's best teams and leagues. I'm now at a point where I recognize the difference between "quality" and "not quality".

I got there based on my interest in lacrosse and basketball. I find soccer very similar in a number of ways. But it takes a while to appreciate the game. I go to games in Mexico in the Winter. It's not great futbol because its the second division. But it is fast and furious and physical. It's great because the crowd reaction gives you a clue to impending critical plays. A defensive player slips 20 yards out and the crowd senses what is next.

 

[xc84]

This seemed to me to be wrong (maybe because I have been to soooo many soccer tournaments in the past ten years), so I did some research. You are right, youth participation is declining. On the other hand the popularity of the sport for spectators is growing. A Forbes article cited a Gallup Poll, suggested that soccer will be the number 3 sport soon, surpassing baseball.

Well, it depends on how it is measured. Yes, the poll asked respondents to name their favorite sport. Soccer came in 4th with 7% choosing it. To me that doesn't say, "Wow"

 

[Conrad13]

I wasn't talking about just 7th, 8th, 9th graders nor do I think this thread is solely about them...though there are frequently girls who are sectional champs at those young ages. I am in agreement with you that it is not necessary to run all year long at those ages. That's why I mentioned in my first post of this thread (maybe you missed it) that Justyn Knight started running in 10th grade and look what he did. It is not necessary in running that you start in 7th, 8th grade.

Also, I agree that strength training is beneficial to runners and reducing miles at some point in the year is beneficial. But those are not the same thing as taking months off from running.

My point is if you want to be a really good runner, you have to run all year. If you want to be a really good football player, you don't have to play football all year. Guys like Joe Girard can play football and basketball at high levels.

I played basketball in between cross country and track seasons in HS and I wonder how much it impacted my running performances. My times got much better when I ran year round in college, so maybe. I do think that taking a break from running lots of miles might have spared me an injury or two. Lots of PTs are encouraging distance runners to do more lateral movements and these days I do old basketball defense drills to keep my aging bod from getting injured. In the end, I don't think that I'd change anything because even though I wasn't good at it, I enjoyed playing basketball and it wasn't like I was coming into track season completely out of shape.

One thing that I've learned since high school that totally makes sense is that distance running converts some fast twitch muscle fibers to behave more like slow twitch muscles. The muscles convert back to fast twitch muscles when the endurance training stops. I remember how much higher I could jump by the end of basketball season after a couple of months off from distance running.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Some sports you have to specialize and really can't do other sports. If you are a distance runner, you can't really take a season off because you lose so much. It has to be done all year. However, that does not mean you can't start late. I believe Justyn Knight started somewhat late in running (10th grade) and didn't endure what some kids did by starting early in e.g. 7th grade.

I was a distance runner. The training you do differs between track and cross country, and it also differs in terms of what kind of off-season work you do in the summer. But still, repetitive type injuries from overwork occur in running, too - especially shin splints, plantar fascia problems, knees, ankles and stress fractures in the feet.

For anyone who doubts the repetitive injury potential for sports ought to just consider baseball pitchers, especially high school kids learning how to throw high-stress pitches like the curveball. There's no question that overwork leads to injury. For quarterbacks in football, overwork can lead to rotator cuff injuries.

It is best for a young athlete's development to cross train in different sports. The skills (and muscle groups) you use for football versus basketball versus baseball are clearly different, and it's best to have well-rounded health and fitness.

 

[IthacaMatt]

Lots of PTs are encouraging distance runners to do more lateral movements and these days I do old basketball defense drills to keep my aging bod from getting injured. In the end, I don't think that I'd change anything because even though I wasn't good at it, I enjoyed playing basketball and it wasn't like I was coming into track season completely out of shape.

I think the biggest difference in training runners today versus when I was an athlete 40 years ago (egad!) is the focus on core strength, diet and weight training.

Back in the day, we would run 100 miles per week, even more in the summer, and then by midseason, taper down to "only" about 60 miles/week, and begin mixing in speed work (repeat quarters) to sharpen toward peak performance at the end of the season.

Nowadays, runners barely run 40 miles a week, but the intensity is much greater, plus there is all the strength training, mental training and dietary management.

I wonder if the training is that much better under the new methods, though, because when I read the section-leading times in the newspaper, most of the time we ran faster times back in the 1970s when I was an athlete, at least for the distance races.

 

[sufandu]

I wasn't talking about just 7th, 8th, 9th graders nor do I think this thread is solely about them...though there are frequently girls who are sectional champs at those young ages. I am in agreement with you that it is not necessary to run all year long at those ages. That's why I mentioned in my first post of this thread (maybe you missed it) that Justyn Knight started running in 10th grade and look what he did. It is not necessary in running that you start in 7th, 8th grade.

Also, I agree that strength training is beneficial to runners and reducing miles at some point in the year is beneficial. But those are not the same thing as taking months off from running.

My point is if you want to be a really good runner, you have to run all year. If you want to be a really good football player, you don't have to play football all year. Guys like Joe Girard can play football and basketball at high levels.

This thread is not solely about the grades I mentioned, but I think the point you were making pertains more to older runners versus younger athletes, and this thread is about youth sports and early specialization in them.

Also, running is unique when compared to other sports. Other sports require more skill development and that is why there is such an emphasis on year round training to maximize that. Apart from refining gt mechanics running is all about conditioning appropriately for the distance you run.


Btw, here is one elite runner that thinks runners should take time off.

8 Reasons You Should Take Time Off From Running • Tina Muir

Runners need to take a rest from running a few times a year. It can be scary, but it is worth it, and you will come back stronger than ever.

tinamuir.com

 

[Geode]

The genie is out of the bottle on the one sport kid, who is an economy of his own. Special coaching and camps, year round travel, showcases, etc. A lot of people making money off a kid (or more likely his parents) with a dream of scholly or pay check. Only way to put the genie back is providing proof that it is dangerous.

the truth to this statement is so spot on...

 

[tbonezone]

no kid of mine is gonna play foosball...

 

[xc84]

This thread is not solely about the grades I mentioned, but I think the point you were making pertains more to older runners versus younger athletes, and this thread is about youth sports and early specialization in them.

Also, running is unique when compared to other sports. Other sports require more skill development and that is why there is such an emphasis on year round training to maximize that. Apart from refining gt mechanics running is all about conditioning appropriately for the distance you run.


Btw, here is one elite runner that thinks runners should take time off.

8 Reasons You Should Take Time Off From Running • Tina Muir

Runners need to take a rest from running a few times a year. It can be scary, but it is worth it, and you will come back stronger than ever.

tinamuir.com

The points I was making pertained to younger distance runners (don't need to run year round) and older distance runners (they do). I don't know Tina Muir but her taking 2 weeks off means she runs 50 of 52 weeks. I looked her up and her marathon PR is 2:36 so not really elite though I take 50/52 as running all year and 2:36 is a good time and nearly National class. Most runners take easy weeks to recover so this is not much different or unusual.

 

[xc84]

I was a distance runner. The training you do differs between track and cross country, and it also differs in terms of what kind of off-season work you do in the summer. But still, repetitive type injuries from overwork occur in running, too - especially shin splints, plantar fascia problems, knees, ankles and stress fractures in the feet.

For anyone who doubts the repetitive injury potential for sports ought to just consider baseball pitchers, especially high school kids learning how to throw high-stress pitches like the curveball. There's no question that overwork leads to injury. For quarterbacks in football, overwork can lead to rotator cuff injuries.

It is best for a young athlete's development to cross train in different sports. The skills (and muscle groups) you use for football versus basketball versus baseball are clearly different, and it's best to have well-rounded health and fitness.

No doubt. I am a victim of repetitive motion/impact injury and cannot run any longer. I agree with all you stated.