OT: Johnny Football

[Upstate]

http://www.delcotimes.com/articles/2013/07/15/sports/doc51e4a2643ec13552270925.txt

You're an NFL GM. Do you take a pass on this guy, with his transgressions, risks? Or do you suck it up and give him a shot to do some impressive things on the field?

 

[AirForceOrange]

Hmmm...if he was eligible right now, would be a tough call...although no doubt he would go 1st round, if not #1 overall. The good thing is that he has to play college ball for at least another year or two...so can wait and see if he makes some changes in his life and maintains or improves on the field. Although definitely see some character and maturity issues there...but nothing major that would stop some teams from drafting him. QBs are always in demand, therefore some/most teams are willing to take on a bit more risk than other positions...

EDIT: He has a lot of work to do, especially when you piss off the Royal Family of Football...The Mannings...

 

[FAL]

Hmmmmm... Maybe he'll transfer to SU. Another Texas QB.

 

[Libero2]

I think it's laughable what some people perceive as transgressions... A guy like Alec Ogletree, drafted by the Rams in the late first this past April, had real character concerns, multiple arrests, suspensions from his team, drug charges... And very few people (outside draftniks, UGA fans, and NFL GMs) had a clue.

Now Johnny Manziel gets hammered one night at party, and has a few unscrupulous tweets, and people are questioning whether NFL GMs would take the risk.

That's not serious character concerns. Meaning this isnt liable to get him arrested, it doesnt showcase a pattern of horrific and frightening behavior, it doesnt indicate anything beyond him being a kid and he has as much chance to "grow up" as anybody else whoever went to college. ultimately it's the same crap every college kid does. They overdo it as they figure out their limits, as they grow up 99% of them figure it out.

Now if you want to argue if his QB talents warrant a 1st round pick, that's a different argument. One that you can debate endlessly at this point, as there was only one year of tape out there to watch of him as a freshman.

 

[AirForceOrange]

I think it's laughable what some people perceive as transgressions... A guy like Alec Ogletree, drafted by the Rams in the late first this past April, had real character concerns, multiple arrests, suspensions from his team, drug charges... And very few people (outside draftniks, UGA fans, and NFL GMs) had a clue.

Now Johnny Manziel gets hammered one night at party, and has a few unscrupulous tweets, and people are questioning whether NFL GMs would take the risk.

That's not serious character concerns. This is liable to get him arrested, and it's the same crap every college kid does. They overdo it as they figure out their limits, as they grow up 99% of them figure it out.

Now if you want to argue if his QB talents warrant a 1st round pick, that's a different argument. One that you can debate endlessly at this point, as there was only one year of tape out there to watch of him as a freshman.

I diasgree...I think at least some, if not most/all, teams look at character and maturity questions as part of the whole evaluation process...especially after some of the latest high profile legal woes of NFL players...Prime example: Aaron Hernandez.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Because we all know the great QB's have never partied late into the evening as college students and as adults, Elway, Marino, Jim Kelly, etc. I think Manziel is a bit of a punk but if he follows up with a solid season this year he will be just fine. My concern with him would be height at the NFL level... I know I know the kid in Seattle is only X but still it gets in the way sometimes

 

[Libero2]

I diasgree...I think at least some, if not most/all, teams look at character and maturity questions as part of the whole evaluation process...especially after some of the latest high profile legal woes of NFL players...Prime example: Aaron Hernandez.

You missunderstand. They absolutely do evaluate the concerns, and talent always outweighs concerns because it is "worth the risk". My comparison was to say if Ogletree with all of those real and concerning transgressions, can be drafted and drafted high, then so can Manziel because he got drunk at the Manning camp.

 

[hplare]

It's more than staying up late and drinking. There are now reports he threw a punch at someone.

 

[AirForceOrange]

You missunderstand. They absolutely do evaluate the concerns, and talent always outweighs concerns because it is "worth the risk". My comparison was to say if Ogletree with all of those real and concerning transgressions, can be drafted and drafted high, then so can Manziel because he got drunk at the Manning camp.

Ahhh..right...then I guess we do agree...however I think after the Hernandez thing, at least some teams (especially New England) will be more wary than before...

 

[cuseincincy]

I think it's laughable what some people perceive as transgressions... A guy like Alec Ogletree, drafted by the Rams in the late first this past April, had real character concerns, multiple arrests, suspensions from his team, drug charges... And very few people (outside draftniks, UGA fans, and NFL GMs) had a clue.

Now Johnny Manziel gets hammered one night at party, and has a few unscrupulous tweets, and people are questioning whether NFL GMs would take the risk.

That's not serious character concerns. Meaning this isnt liable to get him arrested, it doesnt showcase a pattern of horrific and frightening behavior, it doesnt indicate anything beyond him being a kid and he has as much chance to "grow up" as anybody else whoever went to college. ultimately it's the same crap every college kid does. They overdo it as they figure out their limits, as they grow up 99% of them figure it out.

Now if you want to argue if his QB talents warrant a 1st round pick, that's a different argument. One that you can debate endlessly at this point, as there was only one year of tape out there to watch of him as a freshman.

Yeah I agree. The kid is an immature 20 year old with a very bright and unexpected spotlight thrust upon him. He was not and still is not prepared for that spotlight. His "transgressions" are laughable. And now, he threw a punch at someone in the past??? So what! Also, totally agree on the actual QB skills part. He is a kid that had a great season as a college QB. But, I never once saw anything that stood out as "yep, that there looks like an NFL QB play." The plays he made that made him "great" last year don't get made in the NFL when the DE's and LB's are just as fast if not faster than he is. I see alot more Charlie Ward or Ty Detmer in him than Aaron Rogers or even Colin Kaepernick.

 

[orange79]

I think it's laughable what some people perceive as transgressions... A guy like Alec Ogletree, drafted by the Rams in the late first this past April, had real character concerns, multiple arrests, suspensions from his team, drug charges... And very few people (outside draftniks, UGA fans, and NFL GMs) had a clue.

Now Johnny Manziel gets hammered one night at party, and has a few unscrupulous tweets, and people are questioning whether NFL GMs would take the risk.

That's not serious character concerns. Meaning this isnt liable to get him arrested, it doesnt showcase a pattern of horrific and frightening behavior, it doesnt indicate anything beyond him being a kid and he has as much chance to "grow up" as anybody else whoever went to college. ultimately it's the same crap every college kid does. They overdo it as they figure out their limits, as they grow up 99% of them figure it out.

Now if you want to argue if his QB talents warrant a 1st round pick, that's a different argument. One that you can debate endlessly at this point, as there was only one year of tape out there to watch of him as a freshman.

The problem is, everyone is scared of another Ryan Leaf. Right or wrong, I bet there are at least several teams that have crossed him off their list.

 

[Orangemen]

He's got Ryan Leaf warning signs going off big time.

Even if he's not as screwed up as Leaf is/was, he's still getting too much too soon. Winning the Heisman is probably the worst thing that could have happened to him.

 

[mountaincuse]

You missunderstand. They absolutely do evaluate the concerns, and talent always outweighs concerns because it is "worth the risk". My comparison was to say if Ogletree with all of those real and concerning transgressions, can be drafted and drafted high, then so can Manziel because he got drunk at the Manning camp.

I think the difference is the position he plays, if Ogletree was a QB then he doesn't get drafted where he did.

Johnny will be expected to be the face of the franchise, etc. which is where his actions have a bit more of an effect on him.

 

[oldpinepoint]

Hey fireworks on and off the field.

 

[shandeezy7]

He's got Ryan Leaf warning signs going off big time.

Even if he's not as screwed up as Leaf is/was, he's still getting too much too soon. Winning the Heisman is probably the worst thing that could have happened to him.

Was just gonna bring up Ryan Leaf. QB's are always going to be analyzed differently, because they are expected to be leaders who exhibit certain character traits. When you start developing a pattern of behavior that goes in the opposite direction of those character traits, red flags start to pop up with GM's and other football folks.

 

[Libero2]

Ahhh..right...then I guess we do agree...however I think after the Hernandez thing, at least some teams (especially New England) will be more wary than before...

Depends on how you look at it. People are talking about NE more than ever before, they are selling more jerseys and are getting tons of publicity for being the 'good guys' in this Hernandez disaster by cutting him immediately. Sure it's an "embarrassment" but they got four years of stellar lay and made a Super Bowl in part with the help of Hernandez. I think (secretly of course) the pats are happy with that deal for a fourth round pick. Sure they would have preferred he didn't kill anybody, but based on what they got out of him play wise, it's a gamble they are probably still happy they made on draft day.

 

[Libero2]

Yeah I agree. The kid is an immature 20 year old with a very bright and unexpected spotlight thrust upon him. He was not and still is not prepared for that spotlight. His "transgressions" are laughable. And now, he threw a punch at someone in the past??? So what! Also, totally agree on the actual QB skills part. He is a kid that had a great season as a college QB. But, I never once saw anything that stood out as "yep, that there looks like an NFL QB play." The plays he made that made him "great" last year don't get made in the NFL when the DE's and LB's are just as fast if not faster than he is. I see alot more Charlie Ward or Ty Detmer in him than Aaron Rogers or even Colin Kaepernick.

Well it's also important to remember he was a freshman. With more time to develop, he could easily improve his accuracy and footwork, and start looking a whole lot like an RGIII or Colin Kaepernick coming out of college. The guy certainly has the arm talent, and if he actually makes leaps and strides this year, he's got a chance to become a great one.

 

[Libero2]

It's more than staying up late and drinking. There are now reports he threw a punch at someone.

When he was 18, outside of a bar. Seriously what percentage of the population has thrown a punch at somebody while intoxicated? Especially when young and impulsive?

Would I prefer he didn't, of course. But lets be real when talking about the most terrible things a kid can do, that's not particularly high on the list of worries.

 

[Libero2]

The problem is, everyone is scared of another Ryan Leaf. Right or wrong, I bet there are at least several teams that have crossed him off their list.

At this point, that would be a terrible idea. Is Manziel an angel no, of course not. But where is the Leaf comparison coming from?

Leaf was a colossal , on and off the field. He was the opposite of a leader and thrived against reasonably poor competition at Washington state. He was so entitled he honestly thoguht he was gods gift to football and that no one knew a damn thing and he didn't have to listen to coaches or teammates.

As far as I know, Manziel is a leader, somebody his teammates want to play for. He may be entitled, but still accepts coaching and wants to get better, oh and what he did a year ago was against some of the best competition college football has ever seen in the SEC.

Maybe he grows into the giant dbag that Leaf became, but at this point he doesn't seem to be the case.

 

[JackBauer44]

I feel bad for him a bit. Yes he bring it on himself, and he needs to be smarter because he is in the spot light, but all the kid wants is to do what so many people want. He wants to live the "college" experience. He is doing things so many other people do on campus, he is just being watched intensely because of who he is.

 

[Libero2]

I think the difference is the position he plays, if Ogletree was a QB then he doesn't get drafted where he did.

Johnny will be expected to be the face of the franchise, etc. which is where his actions have a bit more of an effect on him.

I agree and disagree. Because Ogletree was an LB, he wasn't as scrutinized and that's true. That said, as I previously pointed out, eventually talent outweighs the risk. I still maintain Ogletree was one of the 8 best players in the (relatively weak at the top) draft. He went late in the first. A QB with that talent level eventually would have been taken by somebody because of the sheer power of the reward if it actually works out.

 

[Libero2]

Was just gonna bring up Ryan Leaf. QB's are always going to be analyzed differently, because they are expected to be leaders who exhibit certain character traits. When you start developing a pattern of behavior that goes in the opposite direction of those character traits, red flags start to pop up with GM's and other football folks.

I would wager that 80% of starting QBs at major universities do the same. The allure is just too strong. It doesn't stop their college teammates from following them to the ends of the earth on the field. The reason we are hearing about Manziel doing it, is because he won a heisman, and is stupid enough to tweet about it.

 

[orange79]

At this point, that would be a terrible idea. Is Manziel an angel no, of course not. But where is the Leaf comparison coming from?

Leaf was a colossal , on and off the field. He was the opposite of a leader and thrived against reasonably poor competition at Washington state. He was so entitled he honestly thoguht he was gods gift to football and that no one knew a damn thing and he didn't have to listen to coaches or teammates.

As far as I know, Manziel is a leader, somebody his teammates want to play for. He may be entitled, but still accepts coaching and wants to get better, oh and what he did a year ago was against some of the best competition college football has ever seen in the SEC.

Maybe he grows into the giant dbag that Leaf became, but at this point he doesn't seem to be the case.

Where is the Ryan Leaf comparison coming from? Do you really think NFL teams say 'Boys will be boys' and don't think about what could possibly be a wasted high pick in the draft? He may be fine, but all this did is raise all sorts of red flags - red flags that NFL teams do not like. All I said was that teams are frightened of wasting a pick on another Ryan Leaf. And he had red flags all over him. That's where the Ryan Leaf comparison is coming from.

 

[Upstate]

I think it's laughable what some people perceive as transgressions... A guy like Alec Ogletree, drafted by the Rams in the late first this past April, had real character concerns, multiple arrests, suspensions from his team, drug charges... And very few people (outside draftniks, UGA fans, and NFL GMs) had a clue.

Now Johnny Manziel gets hammered one night at party, and has a few unscrupulous tweets, and people are questioning whether NFL GMs would take the risk.

That's not serious character concerns. Meaning this isnt liable to get him arrested, it doesnt showcase a pattern of horrific and frightening behavior, it doesnt indicate anything beyond him being a kid and he has as much chance to "grow up" as anybody else whoever went to college. ultimately it's the same crap every college kid does. They overdo it as they figure out their limits, as they grow up 99% of them figure it out.

Now if you want to argue if his QB talents warrant a 1st round pick, that's a different argument. One that you can debate endlessly at this point, as there was only one year of tape out there to watch of him as a freshman.

The fact of the matter is, he blew his responsibilities that he'd signed up for. Sure it might not mean much that he doesn't attend the camp, but it's the principle of maturity, not the degree of the transgression.

 

[NashvilleOrange]

We'll know a lot about his draft stock pretty early in the season. A&M plays Alabama September 14th and if he follows up with a performance similar to last year's, NFL GMs and the media will quickly forget about his hangover at the Manning camp.