OT - Knicks - do you take Melo/Chandler or George/Hibbert?

[Brooky03]

Melo is a more talented offensive player now, especially as a variety shooter but I'll argue that George can get to the rim better. He has a better handle. At times when he has one of those awesome drives it looks LeBron-esque the way he can drive with the ball and avoid traffic.

George gets to the rim more gracefully and in a more 'highlight reel' fashion. I'll give him that for sure. Melo gets to the rim more than you might realize, though. George starts his drive around the three point arc and uses pure athleticism to beat his guy and finish strong. Melo starts his drive from 15ft. away and beats his guy by half a step, using his strength to get a high percentage look at a dunk or layup. George is the better ballhandler and athlete, Melo is craftier and more offensively aware. It's a matter of taste I suppose. Also, 50% of Melo's contested, missed layups probably result in an offensive rebound and putback for him.

 

[SoBeCuse]

George gets to the rim more gracefully and in a more 'highlight reel' fashion. I'll give him that for sure. Melo gets to the rim more than you might realize, though. George starts his drive around the three point arc and uses pure athleticism to finish strong. Melo starts his drive from 15ft. away and beat his guy by half a step, using his strength to get a high percentage look at a dunk or layup. George is the better ballhandler and athlete, Melo is craftier and more offensively aware. It's a matter of taste I suppose. Also, 50% of Melo's contested, missed layups probably result in an offensive rebound and putback for him.

We're on the same page.

 

[SoBeCuse]

He's not scoring 25 per game shooting as poorly from the field as he does right now though. He's got a lot of talent and is a very good all around player, but his offensive game needs a lot of refining to become a big scorer like that.

You're probably right but I think it's possible. I am curious to see where he will be in three years. A bigger Igoudala or a real force.

 

[Melancer46]

Hibbert is dominating the paint against the Knicks. They simply do not have an answer for him, including Chandler. I would take George/Hibbert for that reason alone.

George is not the better player or piece of a team than Melo, though. Melo is clearly the worse defender but George is not a defender at such a level that it overshadows Melo's offensive ability. Basically, the advantage George has as a defender is negated and overrun by Melo's ability to score and spark the offense. George is not a great creator; he relies heavily on the 3 and knocks down open shots. Double team him or put a good defender on him (Shumpert with more height) and George is toast.

I don't know man, George has developed into one of the best wing defenders in the league already, and he's still young, and while Melo can create for himself, he's shown game in and game out this postseason that he's unwilling to create for others when the going gets tough. George is at least a team player, and an elite defender.

But again, my main reasoning for picking George/Hibbert is that they're younger and that George is more likely to settle for being the #2 or #3 scorer on a championship team, whereas Melo will live and die by himself.

 

[Melancer46]

Conley has played really well the 2nd half of this year. I like his game a lot.

He's just a really solid PG. He's not so good that you have to break the bank to keep him, but he's good enough that he can be the difference between your team being a playoff team and a possible title contender. That's a hugely important role, and I think teams tend to prefer a PG like that rather than one that they have to break the bank/build around as their best player.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Conley has played really well the 2nd half of this year. I like his game a lot.

Yeah, took a bit of time I guess. He left after his freshman year at OSU just like Oden right? He's quicker and craftier than I thought. No holes in his game, really.

 

[Melancer46]

Yeah, took a bit of time I guess. He left after his freshman year at OSU just like Oden right? He's quicker and craftier than I thought. No holes in his game, really.

No holes, he's one of those guys that's just really solid at everything but not really great at any one thing. Only thing that could be legitimately great is maybe his defense, but regardless, he's turned into a very solid PG and he's well worth what the Grizzlies are paying him.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Problem isn't the Melo/Chandler duo as much as Chandler's clearly still hobbled a bit, and the guys around them are out of gas. Amare's contract is killing them. It's going to be difficult for them to get better.

 

[SoBeCuse]

Ive only read a few sentences in this post and ive had enough.The knicks have no clue what they are doing? ok. Once SU loses, this board goes f*cking nuts calling for the whole team to implode and throw away JB like a piece of trash. ohhhh boyyyyy. Now its the knicks. Melo is a once in a lifetime athlete. You dont trade him away. If ya did, your ass would be fired. You build around him. If JB was the only coach who can make him good then why the hell did he just win the NBA lead scorer? Why is he always an allstar? Why did he blow up in the olympics? Why are players like KOBE afraid to play him... yikes guy

I'll help you.

- Who knows what the Knicks are doing?
- No he isn't.
- He won the lead NBA scorer because he is a great scorer.
- He's an allstar because he is a great scorer.
- He blows up in the Olympics because he is a great scorer, the D isn't that good, and opposing defenses have to pay attention to WAY more besides Melo.

 

[cuseinseattle]

I love posts that have a preface. I also found it interesting you teamed Chandler with Melo for a trade. Yet everyone else was separated. I take Melo over every single player the Pacers have. I also find it interesting after the Knicks have been awful for the better part of 15 years you would blow up the team that made it to 2nd round of the playoffs. You sound like a true fan.

 

[thebigeast44]

The thing killing the Knicks is many of the awful deals they have made over time. From giving up a lot of draft picks, to giving bad contracts to old players like Camby and Kidd. And most of all giving a max contract to Amare, who already had health problems. Having a max contract guy who has little impact on the success of the team is a serious killer. Amare is the untradable one. Melo is not the problem. The Knicks organization has simply not done enough things right in personnel decisions to field a championship team. Melo did a hell of a job getting the Knicks this far this year.

 

[Melancer46]

The thing killing the Knicks is many of the awful deals they have made over time. From giving up a lot of draft picks, to giving bad contracts to old players like Camby and Kidd. And most of all giving a max contract to Amare, who already had health problems. Having a max contract guy who has little impact on the success of the team is a serious killer. Amare is the untradable one. Melo is not the problem. The Knicks organization has simply not done enough things right in personnel decisions to field a championship team. Melo did a hell of a job getting the Knicks this far this year.

Camby has turned out to be a non-factor because he's been hurt all year, but getting Jason Kidd for $3 million is a major bargain for a team that was so hardpressed for cap space like they were. It's really stuff like paying Novak $4 million per year and not even using him in the playoffs and paying Chandler almost as much as Melo and Amare when he's getting absolutely manhandled that really hurts.

 

[TinyManInside]

I don't think you can win an NBA championship with Melo. I just don't think he's good enough.

 

[Knicks411]

I think Chandler is the most overrated player in the league. He has zero impact offense and he can't guard a decent big man 1 on 1... he has been lucky he's played the majority of his career when all of the other big men sucked.

Disagree. He's been awful in the playoffs, but he is also playing with a neck injury. He is normally a very good player.

He shut Dwight Howard down in every game the Knicks played Orlando last year.

I guess I am defending Tyson a lot here (which may be more defending than he is doing right now), but he's making a lot less than Melo and Amare. Those guys are over $19 million, he's at $13. In the last year of their contracts, Melo and Amare will both be making around $23.5 million, and Tyson $14.6.

The Amare contract is killing them. Basically no one on the team is playign well right now.

 

[BostonOrange]

a few thoughts on this thread...
1. Paul George turned 23 last week. He already averages more boards, assts, steals, and blocks than Melo. I'd still take Melo today because his ability to score is so rare, but it will be interesting to see George's evolution...his improvement from last year to this year is amazing.
2. Melo isn't playing great this postseason. But...this Knicks team kind of sucks (yes they beat my C's - congrats) and the construction of the team really sort of forces Melo to shoot 25 times a game minimum.
3. Trade Melo straight up for anyone in the league - would the Knicks win a title? I don't think so. I don't see LBJ and the rest of the Knicks beating a Melo-Wade-Bosh trio in Miami.
4. All this 1 vs 2 stuff is interesting, but it can be kind of misleading. EVERYONE needs good players around them. Shaq needed Kobe. Duncan, though clearly the '1' needed Parker and Ginobli - two underrated all-star talents. KG needed Pierce and Allen. LBJ needed Wade and Bosh. Dirk I suppose is sort of an exception...a team with a bunch of former stars (kidd, marion) and guys that all caught fire at once.

Anyway - can Melo win a title as the clear best player on a team? No. Few can. Can he win as part of a dynamic duo with a Paul? Or a Harden, Westbrook, etc? I still think so.

 

[BostonOrange]

I don't think you can win an NBA championship with Melo. I just don't think he's good enough.

With him as the clear best player or with him on the team? With him as the clear best player I agree. But...the same could be said for Ewing, David Robinson, Barkley, Stockton, Julius Erving, Chris Paul, etcetcetc.

 

[TinyManInside]

With him as the clear best player or with him on the team? With him as the clear best player I agree. But...the same could be said for Ewing, David Robinson, Barkley, Stockton, Julius Erving, Chris Paul, etcetcetc.

I think he is destined to be Charles Barkley to Lebron's Jordan.

 

[Millhouse]

I don't think you can win an NBA championship with Melo. I just don't think he's good enough.

there's not that much shame in it.

for the most part all the titles are snapped up by transcendent players. the celtics and mavericks are the only recent teams that snuck in there without an all time pantheon type guy in the last 30-35 years

 

[BostonOrange]

I think he is destined to be Charles Barkley to Lebron's Jordan.

He needs to be part of a duo or trio. And it has to be the right other stars too - Rondo or Paul and a good big man would be ideal. Some of the other guys like Rose or Harden I can see them just taking turns going one on one while the other guy stands in the corner.

It's hard to win...I mean Steve Nash has never ever been to the finals and he played with Dirk and Amare in their primes. Mcgrady never won a playoff series.

 

[Knicks411]

3. Trade Melo straight up for anyone in the league - would the Knicks win a title? I don't think so. I don't see LBJ and the rest of the Knicks beating a Melo-Wade-Bosh trio in Miami.

I think the Knicks would almost definitely be favored over Miami in a series in this scenario. I think Wade may be fading fast with his knee. If it was the rest of the Knicks right now, maybe it's different, but they have a ton of guys playing awful and I would expect under more normal circumstances they get more from Tyson, Jr, etc. And Lebron would be miles better than anyone else in the series.

. All this 1 vs 2 stuff is interesting, but it can be kind of misleading. EVERYONE needs good players around them. Shaq needed Kobe. Duncan, though clearly the '1' needed Parker and Ginobli - two underrated all-star talents. KG needed Pierce and Allen. LBJ needed Wade and Bosh. Dirk I suppose is sort of an exception...a team with a bunch of former stars (kidd, marion) and guys that all caught fire at once.

Hey, don't forget Chandler! Was probably the second best player on that team.

But of course I agree with the main point.

the celtics and mavericks are the only recent teams that snuck in there without an all time pantheon type guy in the last 30-35 years

Define pantheon, because unless it's a really narrow definition I think KG would probably qualify.

 

[BostonOrange]

there's not that much shame in it.

for the most part all the titles are snapped up by transcendent players. the celtics and mavericks are the only recent teams that snuck in there without an all time pantheon type guy in the last 30-35 years

KG and Dirk are both 2nd level pantheon guys. The one real outlier is the Pistons with their ensemble of Billups\Sheed\B Wallace\Rip.

 

[BostonOrange]

I think the Knicks would almost definitely be favored over Miami in a series in this scenario. I think Wade may be fading fast with his knee. If it was the rest of the Knicks right now, maybe it's different, but they have a ton of guys playing awful and I would expect under more normal circumstances they get more from Tyson, Jr, etc. And Lebron would be miles better than anyone else in the series.



Hey, don't forget Chandler! Was probably the second best player on that team.

But of course I agree with the main point.



Define pantheon, because unless it's a really narrow definition I think KG would probably qualify.

You might be right on Knicks\Heat. Depends on Wades health.

 

[Millhouse]

KG and Dirk are both 2nd level pantheon guys. The one real outlier is the Pistons with their ensemble of Billups\Sheed\B Wallace\Rip.

there's no 2nd level to the pantheon

i forgot about that detroit team

 

[Knicks411]

I don't like his antics on the court, but I think KG is probably one of the 15-20 greatest players of all time, at least. To be honesty,t I don't see much of a difference between him and Kobe.

You might be right on Knicks\Heat. Depends on Wades health.

Even without it. Lebron is that good, I think. Assuming Chandler is close to healthy and JR is staying out of the clubs. Though Woodson might handicap the Knicks; I'm hating the job he is doing

 

[BostonOrange]

I don't like his antics on the court, but I think KG is probably one of the 15-20 greatest players of all time, at least. To be honesty,t I don't see much of a difference between him and Kobe.



Even without it. Lebron is that good, I think. Assuming Chandler is close to healthy and JR is staying out of the clubs. Though Woodson might handicap the Knicks; I'm hating the job he is doing

I agree on KG - he played on two teams that had ANY chance of winning a title, and one of them won it and the other one lost in the 7th game of the finals (and he was post knee injury in that one). In his prime he is definitely a guy that you could win with as the clear #1. You just couldn't have Wally as the #2.

I think you might be underrating a Heat team with Melo-Bosh-Wade. The Heat would have the 2nd, 3rd, and 4th best players in that series. I would love to see it though...unfortunately instead I will watch the Heat steamroll teams that are missing key guys (rose, granger, westbrook). They probably would have won it anyway but this takes a lot of the fun out of it.