OT: Penn State to get scholarships back | Page 6 | Syracusefan.com

OT: Penn State to get scholarships back

JoePa was the most powerful man at the university and he did the least he could. You ask how horrible these men would have to be? They would have to be as horrible as they were and are.

The fact that you construct a hypothetical and frame it through the lens of what would be better or worse for the program is exactly the problem that permeates your fan base.

There are good people who do bad things and there are bad people who do bad things. Sandusky is an evil person who did evil things.
JoePa is a bad person who did bad things.

He had the power to do more, to inquire, put pressure on the school and authorities and then shut the door on sandusky from the program forever and he didn't, period.

It's child rape. It's child rape. The man was a monster and preyed on the weakest and most vulnerable. And JoePa had a chance to do more and he did not.

Jerry Sandusky terrorized those children and JoePa told his AD. Sounds about right for a guy with a statue and a blindly faithful community worshiping the ground he walks on.

Well, I think we're working off of different assumptions about if he ever knew it was child rape. I'm not going to change your mind, and I can live with that.

And constructing the hypothetical is what most people are doing. Those for and against the sanctions. They assume the "big four" sat down and decided to cover up child rape. If you start with that assumption, I can see where the vitriol comes from.
 
Well, I think we're working off of different assumptions about if he ever knew it was child rape. I'm not going to change your mind, and I can live with that.

And constructing the hypothetical is what most people are doing. Those for and against the sanctions. They assume the "big four" sat down and decided to cover up child rape. If you start with that assumption, I can see where the vitriol comes from.

No. If you start with a guy coming into your office saying a former coach was in the shower with a young boy and it could have been something horrible (how could you not entertain that idea?) - and you do the minimum? That's where the vitriol comes from.

Because most everyone I know would have done more - it's not a big leap to assume they didn't pursue it further because they knew it would harm the school and program.

I worked with kids at camp when I was in college and we were told to report ANYTHING suspicious about anyone. You have an obligation as a human being to do more than the minimum.
 
Well, I think we're working off of different assumptions about if he ever knew it was child rape. I'm not going to change your mind, and I can live with that.

And constructing the hypothetical is what most people are doing. Those for and against the sanctions. They assume the "big four" sat down and decided to cover up child rape. If you start with that assumption, I can see where the vitriol comes from.

He knew the potential was there. That's all that mattered. That's it. Potential was there.

He was one of the most powerful people in PA.

From that, he told the AD.

And then Sandusky got to still be around the program.

The difference isn't the assumption of if he ever knew it was rape or if he covered it up. Knowing there was the potential for child rape, alone, is enough to do more. Unless, of course, you are the most terrible of humans. The difference between us is that the potential for child rape is enough to expect him to do more.

JoePa was a morally bankrupt, terrible human being.
 
He knew the potential was there. That's all that mattered. That's it. Potential was there.

He was one of the most powerful people in PA.

From that, he told the AD.

And then Sandusky got to still be around the program.

The difference isn't the assumption of if he ever knew it was rape or if he covered it up. Knowing there was the potential for child rape, alone, is enough to do more. Unless, of course, you are the most terrible of humans. The difference between us is that the potential for child rape is enough to expect him to do more.

JoePa was a morally bankrupt, terrible human being.

Well, it's clear we're just not going to agree on that. I think he was a good person, philanthropist, who made a questionable call not to follow up on something that was out of his depth (that he did not personally witness, btw). The outrage appears to be directed much more at Joe, a middle man in this situation, than others, and that's because he's Joe. More is expected of him.

And by this time, no, Joe was not the most powerful person at the school. In fact, by all accounts from all parties involved, he was "just the football coach," by then. A figurehead, as I've mentioned.

But that's all I'll say for now on Joe. I'm not going to change your minds, but I can get my opinion in.

Good luck on the rest of your season, folks.
 
Well, it's clear we're just not going to agree on that. I think he was a good person, philanthropist, who made a questionable call not to follow up on something that was out of his depth (that he did not personally witness, btw). The outrage appears to be directed much more at Joe, a middle man in this situation, than others, and that's because he's Joe. More is expected of him.

And by this time, no, Joe was not the most powerful person at the school. In fact, by all accounts from all parties involved, he was "just the football coach," by then. A figurehead, as I've mentioned.

But that's all I'll say for now on Joe. I'm not going to change your minds, but I can get my opinion in.

Good luck on the rest of your season, folks.

Correct. He should have and could have done more. It doesn't erase the good - but leaves a stain on his legacy. It doesn't erase the good program that Penn State has and will be - but it does stain. The most vile stuff (not from you) is those who disregard any wrong doing. Those who stood idly by will have to carry that burden for a long time. You either embrace the good and bad or you walk away from being a fan of the school. There is no in between.
 
Well, it's clear we're just not going to agree on that. I think he was a good person, philanthropist, who made a questionable call not to follow up on something that was out of his depth (that he did not personally witness, btw). The outrage appears to be directed much more at Joe, a middle man in this situation, than others, and that's because he's Joe. More is expected of him.

And by this time, no, Joe was not the most powerful person at the school. In fact, by all accounts from all parties involved, he was "just the football coach," by then. A figurehead, as I've mentioned.

But that's all I'll say for now on Joe. I'm not going to change your minds, but I can get my opinion in.

Good luck on the rest of your season, folks.

I appreciate the reasoned input you have provided to this discussion and wonder how I would react if the situation was reversed and it was Syracuse in the discussion. One final question for you before you leave. Do you believe any of the attitudes, approaches or actions that Paterno, the administration, or the PSU fan base have taken in response to Sandusky's sins were tempered at all or took into consideration the impact and effect on the football program?
 
The individual people who facilitated the decades worth of malfeasance that occurred to intentionally cover up heinous abuse are in jail or on their way to jail. That, to me, is what matters. I guess we have to agree to disagree.
Not even counting the prospect of jail time, solely going on institutional employment, the persons involved were:
  1. The University President
  2. The Athletic Director
  3. The Head Football Coach
That is, by definition in the NCAA constitution, the head of the chain-of-command responsible for Institutional Control. I do not understand how you can sack all those persons, and not prima facie be admitting a lack of Institutional Control.
 
I appreciate the reasoned input you have provided to this discussion and wonder how I would react if the situation was reversed and it was Syracuse in the discussion. One final question for you before you leave. Do you believe any of the attitudes, approaches or actions that Paterno, the administration, or the PSU fan base have taken in response to Sandusky's sins were tempered at all or took into consideration the impact and effect on the football program?

Well, there are three answers to that. Paterno: I don't think he thought about the impact on the football program. If he thought it would hurt the program, I don't think he encourages Mike to tell Curley and Shultz. As for the admin, this is where I'm waiting on the trials to form a conclusion. I think it was more a lack of courage/vision that led to little followup. Moreso than the thought of damage to the program. But I want to see what comes out in the trials.

As for PSU fans, well, I think you've seen that reactions run the gamut. I assume you mean reactions, as I'm not sure any alums/fans/etc. knew anything was going on. There are idiots in every fanbase that will flame other message boards, completely focused only on what this means to the football team. In my experience, however, outside of message boarders (by far the minority), most fellow alums, community members, and fans understand something horrible happened at Penn State, and the effect on the football program is a secondary concern.
 
Well, there are three answers to that. Paterno: I don't think he thought about the impact on the football program.

I don't agree...at all. I think ALL he thought about was the football program. In every decision and statement he made.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/2007-10-17-penn-state-players_N.htm

"With the wave of a hand, Penn State football coach Joe Paterno dismisses any question about off-the-field transgressions that have tarnished the program since the spring."

Pretty much.
 
I don't agree...at all. I think ALL he thought about was the football program. In every decision and statement he made.

http://usatoday30.usatoday.com/sports/college/football/bigten/2007-10-17-penn-state-players_N.htm

"With the wave of a hand, Penn State football coach Joe Paterno dismisses any question about off-the-field transgressions that have tarnished the program since the spring."

Pretty much.

2007? Is this when he had the team clean up the stadium after the home games (along with some suspensions)? I mean, not that I condone any players breaking the law, but what was he supposed to do? IIRC, none of the incidents were major. Regardless, this type of thing happens at just about every major program. You're not always going to get angels to play football.

But Joe wasn't perfect. He liked to keep his punishments between himself and the players and their families. That didn't always fly well with the admin or the media. He didn't always get his way, either.
 
Well, there are three answers to that. Paterno: I don't think he thought about the impact on the football program. If he thought it would hurt the program, I don't think he encourages Mike to tell Curley and Shultz. As for the admin, this is where I'm waiting on the trials to form a conclusion. I think it was more a lack of courage/vision that led to little followup. Moreso than the thought of damage to the program. But I want to see what comes out in the trials.

I like civil discourse and whatnot; however, this is purely delusional. A University President's main job is to enhance the university brand - whether by increasing an institution's academic profile or raising funds, etc. The Senior Vice President for Finance and Business's main job is financial stability. The Athletic Director's main job is athletic branding and on-field success. Individually, you can make a case that each one was independently negligent. As a collective in which they represent the interests of the institution, they were grossly incompetent and put the interests of their "brand" above all else. You can't say that the leadership lacked courage/vision in the same breath as stating they weren't concerned about damage to the program - they are in fact, intertwined.
 
I don't agree with everything in here, but Mandel makes a point:

"It's great that Penn State is cleaning up its act, though it's always been unclear what exactly the NCAA expected the school to clean up. The NCAA took the Freeh Report -- which addressed a very specific and egregious criminal situation involving a very small number of people -- and extrapolated it to suggest Penn State was a fundamentally broken institution with an out-of-control athletics culture. That was never the case, or at least not noticeably more so than at any number of other football-crazed universities. So it shouldn't be surprising that Mitchell would find a school that never previously committed a major NCAA violation and annually produces a high graduation rate is complying with an athletics integrity agreement. It is, however, mildly surprising that after going so far out on a limb with his dictatorial sanctions, Emmert is now backtracking just 14 months later. You tell me whether that's positive or negative for his image."
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/college-football/news/20130925/bcs-title-picture-mailbag/
 
pandora's box has been open as usc announces it is has asked the ncaa in person, for sanctions relief, like was granted for Penn State
 
Well, I'm out fellas. I wish you all a good season. See you on the field again, in a few years!
 
Well, I think we're working off of different assumptions about if he ever knew it was child rape. I'm not going to change your mind, and I can live with that.

3 decades of coaching with the guy plus several more years where he was always in the football facilities, at practice and on team trips to bowl games. Sure, he had no inkling what Sandusky was up to in Pedterno's faculties. Live in your fantasy world.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
I grew up in Maine, where Mitchell is from and still resides for the most part, and his reputation is better than almost anyone I can think of. And Mainers love to hate politicians. Point taken on the steroid report, i was living in Boston at the time this came out and I remember everyone being really scared of the outcome and then really happy that no on on the sox was named - there was some criticism since I think Mitchell was either a small share owner or on the board or something of the team - but I recall critics of his initial appointment came out afterwords and said the report was fair. Of course it came out later that Manny was using steroids the whole time (man that guy was fun to watch at the plate)... But in any case sticking to my guns on Mitchell - friends of mine know him very well and integrity is always the word that comes up first in reference to George. I don't know the details of the Penn state situation, but it's possible that the initial reasons for the sanctions were not sufficiently proven --- sort of like trying to convict someone for insider trading which is difficult to prove when you know you have them on tax evasion but neglect to bring charges on that front. It's also possible that blame flowed in the wrong directions, again I don't know the details. Mitchell would have been very detail oriented in his work and would have made sure that substantial changes had been made by the University before making his recommendation. the outcome still sucks, but I would bet on Mitchell being a fair arbiter 10 times out of 10.

Yeah, I shouldn't really knock the guy's reputation, I just tend to be skeptical that way. But what I don't think I quite understand is what the criminal charges have to do with the university's punishment (unless the NCAA cited criminal proceedings as part of it's ruling).

My point is, let's take the best view possible of Ped St in this whole scandal. We still know the following is true:
-- There was a pedophile running around on campus (sickening, but admittedly it can happen anywhere)
-- The suspect's actions were unquestionably brought to the attention of the AD and head coach.
-- The university failed to take the allegations to authorities and act in a proactive fashion, an error in judgment (again, I"m being kind here) that caused irreparable harm to many (dozens?) of young, disadvantaged kids.

So maybe paterno truly was not in great health and simply made a wrong decision. But any way you slice it the university clearly had lost control of it's football program and, in fact, may have even been on board with the decision to handle the matter quietly in order to preserve the football program's and the university's reputation.

In what world is not proactively and aggressively seeking justice on a matter as grave as sexual abuse of already disadvantaged youth not worthy of an extremely heavy-handed punishment? What fact comes to light that makes people feel better about the conduct of the university over the course of a 5, 10 or 20-year period? In what world do we give credit to the university for, after the fact, complying with the requirements set forth in the punishment that was handed down?

It just makes no sense. I'm not out to punish the new coach and the current players, but I simply can't think of an example of a program acting in a more self-serving way at the expense of trampling the simple human rights of a group of children. It makes SMU seem laughable in almost every way imaginable.
 
I don't agree with everything in here, but Mandel makes a point:

Dude, I don't care who you want to blame but let's be clear. If paterno wants credit for all the good things that happened at Ped St he inherently must accept responsibility for the bad things as well. Such is life. If you're 'the man' you get all the credit and must accept the responsibility as well. Goes with the territory.

As for the story, it's much simpler than the freeh report or anything else out there: The university/program put the interests and reputation of the program in front of the interests of disadvantaged children who were allegedly (since the allegations weren't proven at the time) being raped. That is inexcusable and absolutely inarguable. There is no punishment suitable for what happened here. And make no mistake about it -- universities/boosters buying kids cars, sending them strip clubs, paying for abortions, cheating scandals ... they are nothing compared to this atrocity.
 
Well, I'm out fellas. I wish you all a good season. See you on the field again, in a few years!
Outstanding discussion yalike. Good luck to Penn State putting everything in the past and leading the way for the future.
 

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