OT: Top 5 in the NBA at each position

[RandygoCuse]

Slow news day so I figured I'd put this out. A couple of caveats - I tried not to compare the players to each other. Rather, I looked at the impact they had on their era. Also, I grew up on the 80's Celtics, thus I probably have a Boston bias and there were quite a few players I never saw and could judge only on stats, stories, and success. I'm sure people will feel I left the wrong ones off or ranked others too high. Let me know what you think.

Centers - Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq --toughest omissions George Mikan, Moses Malone

Power Forwards - Duncan, Karl Malone, Garnett, Nowitzki, Barkley -- toughest omissions Pettit, Mchale

Small Forwards - Lebron, Bird, Elgin Baylor, Havlicek, Dr. J --toughest omissions Pippen, Rick Barry

Shooting Guard - Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Frazeir - toughest omissions Drexler, Sharman

Point Guard - Magic, Oscar Robertson, Stockton, Cousy, Isiah Thomas - toughets omissions Kidd, Payton

 

[Eric15]

Slow news day so I figured I'd put this out. A couple of caveats - I tried not to compare the players to each other. Rather, I looked at the impact they had on their era. Also, I grew up on the 80's Celtics, thus I probably have a Boston bias and there were quite a few players I never saw and could judge only on stats, stories, and success. I'm sure people will feel I left the wrong ones off or ranked others too high. Let me know what you think.

Centers - Russell, Wilt, Kareem, Hakeem, Shaq --toughest omissions George Mikan, Moses Malone

Power Forwards - Duncan, Karl Malone, Garnett, Nowitzki, Barkley -- toughest omissions Pettit, Mchale

Small Forwards - Lebron, Bird, Elgin Baylor, Havlicek, Dr. J --toughest omissions Pippen, Rick Barry

Shooting Guard - Jordan, Kobe, West, Wade, Frazeir - toughest omissions Drexler, Sharman

Point Guard - Magic, Oscar Robertson, Stockton, Cousy, Isiah Thomas - toughets omissions Kidd, Payton

List looks good to me. Only possible change I'd make is to take out Walt Frazier and put in George Gervin.

 

[newmexicuse]

Frazier was a PG - his SGs were Monroe and Barnett.

I would put Walt in the PG category ahead of Isiah. He was a champion.

Also, how can there be no room for Dr. J at least on the toughest omissions part.

 

[mark79]

I believe Isaiah won a championship with the bad boys.

Tough call between Isaiah and Walt. Met Clyde once after a Knicks game. Very nice guy. If pressed though, and I was a GM starting a team, I think I would take Isaiah.

 

[Eric15]

Frazier was a PG - his SGs were Monroe and Barnett.

I would put Walt in the PG category ahead of Isiah. He was a champion.

Also, how can there be no room for Dr. J at least on the toughest omissions part.

Not sure I follow your post - Isiah is a champion and Dr. J is on Randy's list.

 

[newmexicuse]

Not sure I follow your post - Isiah is a champion and Dr. J is on Randy's list.

Lack of focus, I missed Dr. J on the list, but I see him now.

Yes, I know Isiah was also a champ, but Frazier won two titles. He probably would also have won a couple of more if Reed had decent knees. Those championship Knick teams weren't necessarily the most talented or the best overall, but I think they were the most synchronized in terms of teamwork ever. Clyde was the orchastrater of that plus he was a great defender - gotta have him on the list.

Also, how is our own Dave Bing not at least on the 2G toughest omissions part ?

 

[Alsacs]

Payton was a better player than Stockton IMO, but Stockton played at a higher level for more years.
Stockton was a A- for 14 years, Payton was an A for 10 years with Seattle and Milwaukee, then deteriorated with Boston, La Lakers, before becoming a role player on the 2006 Miami Heat championship team for 5 years.

Overall that list is good Oscar and Jerry West were combo guards who played PG and SG. Today Oscar would have been a PG and West most likely a SG. I also would take Scottie Pippen over Dirk Nowitski. Pippen could play any position, but C and he was such a freak on defense I would take him over Dirk. Pippen's offense wasn't bad either he was a true all-around player and is why Michael Jordan's legacy will be considered the greatest of all-time.

 

[Knicks411]

Isiah also won 2 titles, for whatever that's worth.

Those Knicks teams I think were pretty damn talented; they did have 3 of the 50 greatest players from the 96 list on their team 70 team, and add Pearl Monroe to the 73 team.

That's a pretty damn good list there, if you ask me.

 

[Eric15]

Lack of focus, I missed Dr. J on the list, but I see him now.

Yes, I know Isiah was also a champ, but Frazier won two titles. He probably would also have won a couple of more if Reed had decent knees. Those championship Knick teams weren't necessarily the most talented or the best overall, but I think they were the most synchronized in terms of teamwork ever. Clyde was the orchastrater of that plus he was a great defender - gotta have him on the list.

Also, how is our own Dave Bing not at least on the 2G toughest omissions part ?

Bing was a great player and a true gentleman, but I think realistically he's probably somewhere between 40-50 on an all-time greats list.

 

[newmexicuse]

Bing was a great player and a true gentleman, but I think realistically he's probably somewhere between 40-50 on an all-time greats list.

I can't see Sharman ahead of Bing on the omissions list. Not sure if anybody else might have jumped Dave for that spot.

 

[Alsacs]

Honestly, Bing isn't a top 50 player of all-time IMO. His teams didn't make the playoffs often and he only won 2 series in the playoffs. He is a great player and a HOFer, but if you look at his numbers they don't scream top 50 all-time player. Bing is Syracuse's greatest NBA of all-time until Melo passes him, but I wouldn't call him a top 50 player even.

 

[Eric15]

I can't see Sharman ahead of Bing on the omissions list. Not sure if anybody else might have jumped Dave for that spot.

Ray Allen, Reggie Miller, Allen Iverson, George Gervin all had better numbers and/or more playoff success. Again, I have nothing but respect for Bing.

 

[realorange]

Again, many of the comments on placing are blurred by trying to compare players from different eras. Virtually all of the players mentioned are worthy of consideration.

 

[Knicks411]

It might be too early for this, but by the numbers, Chris Paul is pretty much the greatest PG of all time. I'm not saying he is, I don't think he is. And his teams haven't had a lot of success. But I would think in a few more years he gets in the conversation. (for top 5)

 

[sufandu]

It might be too early for this, but by the numbers, Chris Paul is pretty much the greatest PG of all time. I'm not saying he is, I don't think he is. And his teams haven't had a lot of success. But I would think in a few more years he gets in the conversation. (for top 5)

Better numbers than Oscar Robertson's 25.7 ppg, 9.5 apg, and 7.5 rpg? Take away his Milwaukee years, where he had clearly fallen off, and they'd be significantly better.

 

[jgeorge322]

Lack of focus, I missed Dr. J on the list, but I see him now.

Yes, I know Isiah was also a champ, but Frazier won two titles. He probably would also have won a couple of more if Reed had decent knees. Those championship Knick teams weren't necessarily the most talented or the best overall, but I think they were the most synchronized in terms of teamwork ever. Clyde was the orchastrater of that plus he was a great defender - gotta have him on the list.

Also, how is our own Dave Bing not at least on the 2G toughest omissions part ?

didn't isaih win back-to-back titles with pistons? that means they'd both have 2.

 

[Knicks411]

Better numbers than Oscar Robertson's 25.7 ppg, 9.5 apg, and 7.5 rpg? Take away his Milwaukee years, where he had clearly fallen off, and they'd be significantly better.

Sorry, should have clarified, meant some of the more advanced stats. He's never gonna have the raw stats of Oscar (and I';m not saying he's better than Oscar anyway) because of the pace of th egame in the 60's. Using win shares/48, Paul has a career average of .246; Oscar had one season in his career above his average figure.

I really don't this doesn't turn into me saying chris paul is better than oscar robertson.

 

[sufandu]

Lack of focus, I missed Dr. J on the list, but I see him now.

Yes, I know Isiah was also a champ, but Frazier won two titles. He probably would also have won a couple of more if Reed had decent knees. Those championship Knick teams weren't necessarily the most talented or the best overall, but I think they were the most synchronized in terms of teamwork ever. Clyde was the orchastrater of that plus he was a great defender - gotta have him on the list.

Also, how is our own Dave Bing not at least on the 2G toughest omissions part ?

Can you give credit for championships he would've won? Couldn't it be argued that Isaiah was the only elite player on that team? Dumars, Rodman, and Laimbeer were good but certainly not close to the same level as Isaiah. Having been too young to have seen those Knicks teams, it sounds as if they were very similar, in that they were actual teams that weren't loaded with amazing talent.

 

[sufandu]

Sorry, should have clarified, meant some of the more advanced stats. He's never gonna have the raw stats of Oscar (and I';m not saying he's better than Oscar anyway) because of the pace of th egame in the 60's. Using win shares/48, Paul has a career average of .246; Oscar had one season in his career above his average figure.

I really don't this doesn't turn into me saying chris paul is better than oscar robertson.

I know that you weren't trying to say that. You made that clear in your first post. I'm not an advanced stats guy so I'll take your word on the one you cited. It looks like he may be one of the all time greats when it's all said and done. As a smaller player, I'm curious how much tightening up on hand checking has helped him.

 

[NineOneSeven]

It might be too early for this, but by the numbers, Chris Paul is pretty much the greatest PG of all time. I'm not saying he is, I don't think he is. And his teams haven't had a lot of success. But I would think in a few more years he gets in the conversation. (for top 5)

He's also in his prime. He will go down as top 5 of all-time.

I also think Nash is deserving of a mention. One of the best shooters of all-time.

 

[MikeSU02]

Payton was a better player than Stockton IMO, but Stockton played at a higher level for more years.
Stockton was a A- for 14 years, Payton was an A for 10 years with Seattle and Milwaukee, then deteriorated with Boston, La Lakers, before becoming a role player on the 2006 Miami Heat championship team for 5 years.

Overall that list is good Oscar and Jerry West were combo guards who played PG and SG. Today Oscar would have been a PG and West most likely a SG. I also would take Scottie Pippen over Dirk Nowitski. Pippen could play any position, but C and he was such a freak on defense I would take him over Dirk. Pippen's offense wasn't bad either he was a true all-around player and is why Michael Jordan's legacy will be considered the greatest of all-time.

Stockton was terrible at defense. Terrible. Gary Payton was one of the best defenders of his era. People get enamored with offensive stats too much.

Also why I highlighted the Pippen v. Dirk line. I agree with you as well here. You are talking about someone who was a shut down defender and a mutli-faceted offensive player that could run point from the forward position. I love Dirk, but you are hoping that his best defensive effort will end up being "knowing where to be" and "a little better than we expected".

 

[Knicks411]

I know that you weren't trying to say that. You made that clear in your first post. I'm not an advanced stats guy so I'll take your word on the one you cited. It looks like he may be one of the all time greats when it's all said and done. As a smaller player, I'm curious how much tightening up on hand checking has helped him.

Yeah I'm sure it definitely did, though I guess technically we'll never know since he came into the league right when the rules wre changed.

I bring this up every time stockton gets mentioned, but his games played are amazing. Guy played 82 games every year for like 17 years. There is a ton of value in that.
Nash probably does have to get mentioned; he's probably the greatest shooter ever? I think he has a very strong argument as the best offensive PG in the history of the game. Unfortunately, there is another side of the ball.

 

[Shawn91111]

Top 5 all time each position is tough but here goes

Center - Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Shaq, Hakeem

Power Forwards - Duncan, Malone, Barkley, Garnett, Dirk - Very close are #'s 2-6 with McHale being #6

Small Forwards - Lebron, Bird, Baylor, Havlicek, Erving - Dr J and Pippen could easily be switched

Shooting Guards - Jordan, Kobe, West, Drexler, Gervin

Point Guards - Magic, Oscar, Isiah, Stockton, Cousy - Payton being #6

 

[Shawn91111]

Stockton was terrible at defense. Terrible. Gary Payton was one of the best defenders of his era. People get enamored with offensive stats too much.

Also why I highlighted the Pippen v. Dirk line. I agree with you as well here. You are talking about someone who was a shut down defender and a mutli-faceted offensive player that could run point from the forward position. I love Dirk, but you are hoping that his best defensive effort will end up being "knowing where to be" and "a little better than we expected".

 

[sufandu]

Stockton was terrible at defense. Terrible. Gary Payton was one of the best defenders of his era. People get enamored with offensive stats too much.

Also why I highlighted the Pippen v. Dirk line. I agree with you as well here. You are talking about someone who was a shut down defender and a mutli-faceted offensive player that could run point from the forward position. I love Dirk, but you are hoping that his best defensive effort will end up being "knowing where to be" and "a little better than we expected".

The all time leader in steals (and he's the leader by a lot) can't be a terrible defender. He may not have been the lock down guy Payton was, but there is some middle ground between lockdown and terrible.