OT: Top 5 in the NBA at each position

[OrangeDW]

Stockton was terrible at defense. Terrible. Gary Payton was one of the best defenders of his era. People get enamored with offensive stats too much.

Also why I highlighted the Pippen v. Dirk line. I agree with you as well here. You are talking about someone who was a shut down defender and a mutli-faceted offensive player that could run point from the forward position. I love Dirk, but you are hoping that his best defensive effort will end up being "knowing where to be" and "a little better than we expected".

He made 2nd team All Defense 5 times! I remember him being a tough, hardnosed(borderline dirty), pain in the butt type defender. Definitely nowhere near as good as Payton, but certainly not terrible.

 

[MikeSU02]

The all time leader in steals (and he's the leader by a lot) can't be a terrible defender. He may not have been the lock down guy Payton was, but there is some middle ground between lockdown and terrible.

I stand by my statement. He got steals which is one of the most misleading stats there is in terms of defensive abilities.

We can agree to disagree.

Gary Payton is arguably the greatest defender at the PG position ever.

 

[Knicks411]

For whatever it's worth (maybe not much), but the Jazz did rank consistently in the top ten during most of Stockton's career. Just throwing it out there

 

[RandygoCuse]

[quote="

Gary Payton is arguably the greatest defender at the PG position ever.[/quote]

I don't think there's much of an argument. This is a definite in my book.

 

[OrangeDW]

Nice list. I'll rate only those that I feel I've seen enough of to rate...

I know all about the older guys and their place in history, but I think it's unfair and impossible to rate guys I've never seen play so I'll stick to those I know.

PG - Magic Johnson, Isiah Thomas, Gary Payton, Jason Kidd, John Stockton

SG - Michael Jordan, Kobe Bryant, Dwyane Wade, Allen Iverson, Clyde Drexler

SF - Larry Bird, Lebron James, Dr. J, Scottie Pippen, Kevin Durant

PF - Tim Duncan, Charles Barkley, Karl Malone, Kevin Garnett, Dirk Nowitski

C - Kareem Abdul Jabbar, Hakeem Olajuwon, Shaq, Moses Malone, David Robinson

 

[Shawn91111]

I stand by my statement. He got steals which is one of the most misleading stats there is in terms of defensive abilities.

We can agree to disagree.

Gary Payton is arguably the greatest defender at the PG position ever.

But saying Stockton was terrible at defense is just not true at all, that's like lining him up with Nash in that department. Stockton was very gritty, tough and could be physical with other guards. He did gamble a bit, but had very quick hands and would be very surprised if someone that's covered the NBA as an analyst or what have you say that Stockton was terrible at defense.

 

[sufandu]

I stand by my statement. He got steals which is one of the most misleading stats there is in terms of defensive abilities.

We can agree to disagree.

Gary Payton is arguably the greatest defender at the PG position ever.

I didn't say Payton wasn't the better defender. I just said Stockton wasn't terrible. As someone else pointed out, he made the all NBA 2nd defensive team 5 times, so he must have been at least a solid defender. As to the larger discussion, Payton was better at scoring while Stockton was better at passing, so it depends on what you look for in your point guard.

 

[MonsterGame]

I didn't say Payton wasn't the better defender. I just said Stockton wasn't terrible. As someone else pointed out, he made the all NBA 2nd defensive team 5 times, so he must have been at least a solid defender. As to the larger discussion, Payton was better at scoring while Stockton was better at passing, so it depends on what you look for in your point guard.

When one google's the career stats John Stockton head to head with Gary Payton, it's really not even close, Stockton wins. He's ahead of Payton in most categories both in career numbers and per game averages. Maybe during one or two seasons Payton was better than Stockton, but not over their careers. Quite frankly, the shooting percentages and assist per game numbers make this a no brainer anyway.

 

[sufandu]

When one google's the career stats John Stockton head to head with Gary Payton, it's really not even close, Stockton wins. He's ahead of Payton in most categories both in career numbers and per game averages. Maybe during one or two seasons Payton was better than Stockton, but not over their careers. Quite frankly, the shooting percentages and assist per game numbers make this a no brainer anyway.

I don't know that it's that clear cut. Payton was the better defender, despite Stockton not being terrible, as was suggested. I think his scoring balances out the assists, to certain extent. Payton had 11 seasons where he averaged more points per game than Stockton's best scoring season. Stockton was the better shooter, from a percentage standpoint, but, without checking the rosters, I think Payton was his team's #1 option, drawing more defensive attention, far more often than Stockton was. I give the edge to Stockton, but it's not fair to Payton to call it a no brainer.

 

[Alsacs]

When one google's the career stats John Stockton head to head with Gary Payton, it's really not even close, Stockton wins. He's ahead of Payton in most categories both in career numbers and per game averages. Maybe during one or two seasons Payton was better than Stockton, but not over their careers. Quite frankly, the shooting percentages and assist per game numbers make this a no brainer anyway.

Stockton was more consistent and I said was an A- for 14 seasons while Payton was an A for 10 years. Go look at the 1996 Western Conference Finals between Payton and Stockton. Payton destroyed Stockton. Stockton was a great PG and sure fire 1st ballot guy, but Payton was the better player if I had my choice. Stockton was on the Dream Team because Jordan hated Isiah Thomas and the committee didn't hate the fact Stockton would give them another white face. Isiah Thomas should hace been on that team in 1992. I would take Payton just because he was better. Stockton was good but I feel was never great. He was never going toi take over a game. He would get you 14ppg, 12apg per season.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Stockton was more consistent and I said was an A- for 14 seasons while Payton was an A for 10 years. Go look at the 1996 Western Conference Finals between Payton and Stockton. Payton destroyed Stockton. Stockton was a great PG and sure fire 1st ballot guy, but Payton was the better player if I had my choice. Stockton was on the Dream Team because Jordan hated Isiah Thomas and the committee didn't hate the fact Stockton would give them another white face. Isiah Thomas should hace been on that team in 1992. I would take Payton just because he was better. Stockton was good but I feel was never great. He was never going toi take over a game. He would get you 14ppg, 12apg per season.

I agree that Isiah should have been on the Dream Team, but I would kick off Pippen or possibly Mullin before Stockton.

 

[Alsacs]

I agree that Isiah should have been on the Dream Team, but I would kick off Pippen or possibly Mullin before Stockton.

LOL are you serious? Pippen was the 5th pick of the committee.
Magic/Jordan/Bird were the first three picks as captains. David Robinson was the 4th selection of the committee. Then Scottie Pippen was 5th.

If you get rid of anybody its Christian Laettner. Stockton was chosen over Isiah Thomas as the backup PG because Jordan and Bird hated Isiah and Magic was pissed about him as well.

The order of the Dream Team Selection was and this was documented in the book The Golden Boys by Jack McCallum
1-3 Jordan/Magic/Bird
4. Robinson
5. Pippen
6-9 Barkley, Malone, Mullin, Ewing
10. Drexler
11. Stockton
12. Laettner(to keep 1 college player on the team)

 

[RandygoCuse]

LOL are you serious? Pippen was the 5th pick of the committee.
Magic/Jordan/Bird were the first three picks as captains. David Robinson was the 4th selection of the committee. Then Scottie Pippen was 5th.

If you get rid of anybody its Christian Laettner. Stockton was chosen over Isiah Thomas as the backup PG because Jordan and Bird hated Isiah and Magic was pissed about him as well.

The order of the Dream Team Selection was and this was documented in the book The Golden Boys by Jack McCallum
1-3 Jordan/Magic/Bird
4. Robinson
5. Pippen
6-9 Barkley, Malone, Mullin, Ewing
10. Drexler
11. Stockton
12. Laettner(to keep 1 college player on the team)

I"ll concede that I'd take off Mullin before Pippen. I don't take into account the order that the committee picked them. I like Stockton's ability to shoot as well as distribute to the many stars on the team. On another note, Pippen hadn't even made the all star game that year - although you could make the case the team should be based on their entire career, not just that season. Obviously, I'd take off Laettner before anyone else, but the committee insisted on having a college player.

Edit - Drexler was picked after Stockton. He hadn't been one of the original 10 selected. He (along with Laettner I believe) was added later.

 

[Knicks411]

Maybe it's because we have the benefit of hindsight, but there's no way Pippen doesn't make that team for me. Having him #5 on the list seems about right.

 

[MonsterGame]

I don't know that it's that clear cut. Payton was the better defender, despite Stockton not being terrible, as was suggested. I think his scoring balances out the assists, to certain extent. Payton had 11 seasons where he averaged more points per game than Stockton's best scoring season. Stockton was the better shooter, from a percentage standpoint, but, without checking the rosters, I think Payton was his team's #1 option, drawing more defensive attention, far more often than Stockton was. I give the edge to Stockton, but it's not fair to Payton to call it a no brainer.

How many defenders stepped away from Stockton for help defense on someone else? The answer, none, cause your team was going to get a 3 ball to the face if you did. Stockton is the proto-type PG because he knew what his role was. Dimes, dimes, dimes and if someone cheats off you, make them pay with the outside shot. He was money from the free throw line, inside and outside the arc and most importantly, knew how to find the open players for shots.

Not going to sit here and say Payton wasn't great, during his hay day, his lateral quickness, anticipation, hands and defensive instincts were unparalleled for a PG. but he also benefited from playing at a time when hand/forearm-checking was out of control in the NBA. Sometimes I thought we were watching a hockey game during that time. (Surprised no fans ever got smacked with a puck during some games.) PPG is only better if one shoots with a higher percentage, Payton didn't and it's not close. And Payton's APG is not close either.

Jabbar (by a smidge over Russell), Duncan, LJ (by a smidge over Bird), MJ and Stockton would be my fantasy go to team and I'd take them over any other fantasy team constructed from other players. This team would have amazing chemistry and the team's only potential weakness would be Stockton's one on one defensive ability which could be adjusted for as the rest of the team has amazing defensive ability. I'm sure many are going to be up-in-arms that Magic isn't chosen over Stockton. I like Stockton more for team chemistry reasons mainly but also shooting percentages. Stockton knew his role and had no ego going about it which is great for a PG, setup the other players for shots. Magic was great at that as well, but Magic was, show time and part of show time was getting some for himself too so I like Stockton as the PG.

Also, I know he's young still, but surprised Durant isn't getting any love on the Top 5 at position lists. Hell, I'd take him over Dirk already.

 

[Knicks411]

I think for me Durant is just too early in his career for me to judge on that standard. I think he's clearly on his way to being one of the 20 best players of all time.

 

[sufandu]

How many defenders stepped away from Stockton for help defense on someone else? The answer, none, cause your team was going to get a 3 ball to the face if you did. Stockton is the proto-type PG because he knew what his role was. Dimes, dimes, dimes and if someone cheats off you, make them pay with the outside shot. He was money from the free throw line, inside and outside the arc and most importantly, knew how to find the open players for shots.

Not going to sit here and say Payton wasn't great, during his hay day, his lateral quickness, anticipation, hands and defensive instincts were unparalleled for a PG. but he also benefited from playing at a time when hand/forearm-checking was out of control in the NBA. Sometimes I thought we were watching a hockey game during that time. (Surprised no fans ever got smacked with a puck during some games.) PPG is only better if one shoots with a higher percentage, Payton didn't and it's not close. And Payton's APG is not close either.

Jabbar (by a smidge over Russell), Duncan, LJ (by a smidge over Bird), MJ and Stockton would be my fantasy go to team and I'd take them over any other fantasy team constructed from other players. This team would have amazing chemistry and the team's only potential weakness would be Stockton's one on one defensive ability which could be adjusted for as the rest of the team has amazing defensive ability. I'm sure many are going to be up-in-arms that Magic isn't chosen over Stockton. I like Stockton more for team chemistry reasons mainly but also shooting percentages. Stockton knew his role and had no ego going about it which is great for a PG, setup the other players for shots. Magic was great at that as well, but Magic was, show time and part of show time was getting some for himself too so I like Stockton as the PG.

Also, I know he's young still, but surprised Durant isn't getting any love on the Top 5 at position lists. Hell, I'd take him over Dirk already.

Why are you debating me as if I said Payton was better? I didn't. Go read my post again. I merely said there isn't as much of a gap as you suggest.

 

[MonsterGame]

Why are you debating me as if I said Payton was better? I didn't. Go read my post again. I merely said there isn't as much of a gap as you suggest.

Would you think I was being too defensive if I replied, "Why are you debating me as if I said there is a huge gap between Stockton and Payton? I didn't. Go read my post again. I merely implied Stockton is better."

Sigh, let's agree that we've agreed then.

 

[sufandu]

LOL are you serious? Pippen was the 5th pick of the committee.
Magic/Jordan/Bird were the first three picks as captains. David Robinson was the 4th selection of the committee. Then Scottie Pippen was 5th.

If you get rid of anybody its Christian Laettner. Stockton was chosen over Isiah Thomas as the backup PG because Jordan and Bird hated Isiah and Magic was pissed about him as well.

The order of the Dream Team Selection was and this was documented in the book The Golden Boys by Jack McCallum
1-3 Jordan/Magic/Bird
4. Robinson
5. Pippen
6-9 Barkley, Malone, Mullin, Ewing
10. Drexler
11. Stockton
12. Laettner(to keep 1 college player on the team)

I'm surprised Drexler was lower than Mullin. I know they weren't the same position, exactly, but Drexler was such an elite player at that point in his career. I suppose they emphasized Mullin for his shooting?

 

[sufandu]

Would you think I was being too defensive if I replied, "Why are you debating me as if I said there is a huge gap between Stockton and Payton? I didn't. Go read my post again. I merely implied Stockton is better."

Sigh, let's agree that we've agreed then.

I wouldn't think it, if you said that in reply to me writing a paragraph as if I completely disagreed with you. Read the first paragraph of your post, and tell me that is you mostly agreeing with me. It doesn't come across as that at all.

 

[MonsterGame]

I wouldn't think it, if you said that in reply to me writing a paragraph as if I completely disagreed with you. Read the first paragraph of your post, and tell me that is you mostly agreeing with me. It doesn't come across as that at all.

Yes, I do think it's a no brainer that Stockton is better than Payton. (If basketball was played as a 1 on 1 game, then I'd give the edge to Payton, it's not though.) Payton's PPG came at the cost of significantly higher number of shots per game due to his significantly lower shooting percentages. Stockton has a significantly higher APG number than Payton. I don't value Payton's defensive prowess as being the end all be all for a variety of reasons. (Jason Hart is out of the league isn't he? Ok, bad comparison Hart to Payton, but defense at the PG position is over-valued in most cases. I'd rather have great defense at the 2, 3 and 5 positions. Hell, a well built team can just have the 2 or 3 bring the ball up as needed.)

I'm sorry if you were offended by my post.

P.S. Chris Paul > Gary Payton

 

[RandygoCuse]

I'm surprised Drexler was lower than Mullin. I know they weren't the same position, exactly, but Drexler was such an elite player at that point in his career. I suppose they emphasized Mullin for his shooting?

That and Drexler's game was very similar to MJ's

 

[sufandu]

Yes, I do think it's a no brainer that Stockton is better than Payton. (If basketball was played as a 1 on 1 game, then I'd give the edge to Payton, it's not though.) Payton's PPG came at the cost of significantly higher number of shots per game due to his significantly lower shooting percentages. Stockton has a significantly higher APG number than Payton. I don't value Payton's defensive prowess as being the end all be all for a variety of reasons. (Jason Hart is out of the league isn't he? Ok, bad comparison Hart to Payton, but defense at the PG position is over-valued in most cases. I'd rather have great defense at the 2, 3 and 5 positions. Hell, a well built team can just have the 2 or 3 bring the ball up as needed.)

I'm sorry if you were offended by my post.

P.S. Chris Paul > Gary Payton

Ok, now this is a debate since we don't necessarily agree. Hart is indeed a bad example because his defense kept him the league for about a decade, since he had very little offense.

Even though I think shooting percentage is significant, I don't think it's as important as you suggest. Part of why Payton took more shots was because he had to. He was his team's #1 scoring option, and was forced to create for himself, far more often than Stockton. If Stockton had to be his team's primary shooter, do you think his shooting percentage would've been so high? I don't. He wasn't a guy that got his own shot off the dribble all that much. As you you said before, defenders would be reluctant to leave him because he was a great shooter. However, the presence of Malone gave him many more open looks than he would've had without Malone or some other elite big man. Interestingly, Payton's career shooting percentage is better than Kobe Bryant's. Would you suggest that Payton and Stockton are both better than him?

You also undervalue Payton's defense because he didn't just defend PG's. As his team's best defender, he often would pick up whichever guard was the opposing team's best offensive threat, so you could say he was also a 2 on the defensive end.

I will state it again. I give Stockton the edge, but Payton isn't far behind.

 

[sufandu]

That and Drexler's game was very similar to MJ's

Sure, I get that, but they didn't have a 2nd 2 guard until they took Drexler, whereas they had two small forwards in Pippen and Bird before they chose Mullin. I know it ultimately doesn't matter, but I find it interesting.

 

[RandygoCuse]

Sure, I get that, but they didn't have a 2nd 2 guard until they took Drexler, whereas they had two small forwards in Pippen and Bird before they chose Mullin. I know it ultimately doesn't matter, but I find it interesting.

I agree with you. I would have added Drexler before Mullin. My guess is they were fairly certain they could add another 2 guard later. I think Mullin was coming off a good season.