OT: Top 5 in the NBA at each position

[Alsacs]

Pippen could play any position from PG to PF so when they chose Pippen they had a 2nd SG if they needed Pippen to play SG.

 

[sufandu]

Pippen could play any position from PG to PF so when they chose Pippen they had a 2nd SG if they needed Pippen to play SG.

That's true. In those Olympics, that probably could've been said of half the squad though.

 

[MonsterGame]

Ok, now this is a debate since we don't necessarily agree. Hart is indeed a bad example because his defense kept him the league for about a decade, since he had very little offense.

Even though I think shooting percentage is significant, I don't think it's as important as you suggest. Part of why Payton took more shots was because he had to. He was his team's #1 scoring option, and was forced to create for himself, far more often than Stockton. If Stockton had to be his team's primary shooter, do you think his shooting percentage would've been so high? I don't. He wasn't a guy that got his own shot off the dribble all that much. As you you said before, defenders would be reluctant to leave him because he was a great shooter. However, the presence of Malone gave him many more open looks than he would've had without Malone or some other elite big man. Interestingly, Payton's career shooting percentage is better than Kobe Bryant's. Would you suggest that Payton and Stockton are both better than him?

You also undervalue Payton's defense because he didn't just defend PG's. As his team's best defender, he often would pick up whichever guard was the opposing team's best offensive threat, so you could say he was also a 2 on the defensive end.

I will state it again. I give Stockton the edge, but Payton isn't far behind.

Before I read your 3rd paragraph, I was thinking, "Seems like your describing a proto-type shooting guard, not a point guard." And no sooner had I thought that then you imply Payton had 2 guard qualities as well. Maybe Payton played out of position and clearly Stockton is the better PG.

I like Karl Malone, I really do, but if he'd have played with Payton his entire career instead of Stockton, I think his point total would be a fair amount lower. (Stockton and Malone fit like a hand in a glove running the two-man game and on pick and rolls. Payton did not have the shooting prowess necessary to keep defenders honest and bring out the best in Malone and vice versa.) Not to mention, there wasn't much else of offensive value on those Utah teams. Who's to say that Payton didn't have overall better talent on his teams but couldn't utilize it fully?

If you asked me who the better PG is, Stockton, Kobe or Payton. I'd say Stockton. Your attempt to trap me by confusing the issue at hand about who is positionally better has failed. I will add this, when the Lakers do well, it's generally because Kobe isn't taking over the game, but that the whole team gets involved and Kobe facilitates more. When Kobe takes over, the Lakers tend to lose. This isn't some amazing revelation, I've heard many NBA analysts state the same thing.

 

[OrangeDW]

Payton destroyed Stockton in some really big games in the '96 playoffs. Deciding factor for me.

 

[Alsacs]

Gary Payton was a PG. The Stockton-Payton argument IMO comes down to do you want an A- player for 14 years or an A player for 10 years. Both had their pluses and minuses, but Stockton didn't have Payton's ceiling and Payton didn't have Stockton's consistency. Also, Stockton was probably the dirtiest guard of his ERA. He would fall on opponent's ankles when they shot jump shots, would hit players in the privates "accidentally", and he stuck out his foot on picks. Payton was loud and could self-destruct a team with his Diva attitude.

Look at the 1996 Western Conference Finals. Head to head Payton OWNED Stockton and that matchup is why Seattle won.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996_WCF.html

 

[MonsterGame]

Gary Payton was a PG. The Stockton-Payton argument IMO comes down to do you want an A- player for 14 years or an A player for 10 years. Both had their pluses and minuses, but Stockton didn't have Payton's ceiling and Payton didn't have Stockton's consistency. Also, Stockton was probably the dirtiest guard of his ERA. He would fall on opponent's ankles when they shot jump shots, would hit players in the privates "accidentally", and he stuck out his foot on picks. Payton was loud and could self-destruct a team with his Diva attitude.

Look at the 1996 Western Conference Finals. Head to head Payton OWNED Stockton and that matchup is why Seattle won.
http://www.basketball-reference.com/playoffs/NBA_1996_WCF.html

Point guards with Diva attitudes. Now that just sounds wonderful. I'll take the dirty PG every time over the diva. The whole NBA was dirty back in those days anyway.

It didn't really occur to me to consider Payton's ceiling when comparing him to Stockton as a PG. Maybe if I had considered how hypothetically good he could have been had he played to his ceiling-potential, then I would think differently on who is clearly better. Next time I'll consider ceiling more carefully. (/sarcasm off)

Payton may have played better than Stockton head to head in some 7 game series in a certain year, that has next to zero impact on who I think is the better PG over their careers. Although almost every game I check throughout their careers head to head, Stockton had more assists in the game then Payton, sometimes significantly more assists. Like 5+ more. That's being part of the reason for 10+ more points being scored per game and Payton did have Kemp and Detlef and some other good shooters on his team, wonder why he sucked so bad at getting assists being a PG? (Ok, he wasn't horrible at getting assists, but he wasn't an above average assist maker either.)

 

[Alsacs]

Point guards with Diva attitudes. Now that just sounds wonderful. I'll take the dirty PG every time over the diva. The whole NBA was dirty back in those days anyway.

It didn't really occur to me to consider Payton's ceiling when comparing him to Stockton as a PG. Maybe if I had considered how hypothetically good he could have been had he played to his ceiling-potential, then I would think differently on who is clearly better. Next time I'll consider ceiling more carefully. (/sarcasm off)

Payton may have played better than Stockton head to head in some 7 game series in a certain year, that has next to zero impact on who I think is the better PG over their careers. Although almost every game I check throughout their careers head to head, Stockton had more assists in the game then Payton, sometimes significantly more assists. Like 5+ more. That's being part of the reason for 10+ more points being scored per game and Payton did have Kemp and Detlef and some other good shooters on his team, wonder why he sucked so bad at getting assists being a PG? (Ok, he wasn't horrible at getting assists, but he wasn't an above average assist maker either.)

Seattle destroyed a chance to own the West by trading Shawn Kemp in 1997. Instead of taking care of their franchise player who was underpaid the SuperSonics gave backup C Jim Mcilvaine 35 million dollars and kept Kemp underpaid. Kemp forced the trade to Cleveland and the Sonics got back a drunken Vin Baker. That move and San Antonio and Houston getting old fast and the Lakers not ready yet allowed Stockton and Malone to win the West in 1997 and 1998. If Seattle had Kemp they likely win the West atleast once in 97 or 98 because of how bad Payton owned Stockton.

 

[MonsterGame]

Seattle destroyed a chance to own the West by trading Shawn Kemp in 1997. Instead of taking care of their franchise player who was underpaid the SuperSonics gave backup C Jim Mcilvaine 35 million dollars and kept Kemp underpaid. Kemp forced the trade to Cleveland and the Sonics got back a drunken Vin Baker. That move and San Antonio and Houston getting old fast and the Lakers not ready yet allowed Stockton and Malone to win the West in 1997 and 1998. If Seattle had Kemp they likely win the West atleast once in 97 or 98 because of how bad Payton owned Stockton.

I figured while we're on the subject of hypothethical things that didn't happen like Seattle winning the west at least once in 97 or 98, I thought I'd take this chance to say based on ceiling, I'm moving Kwamie Brown into my Top 10 centers of all time list.

Strangely, Stockton did lead the league in assists for 8 or 9 years in a row back then. And that wasn't hypothetical at all. Silly me, and I always thought getting lot's of assists was what good PGs did.

 

[Alsacs]

I figured while we're on the subject of hypothethical things that didn't happen like Seattle winning the west at least once in 97 or 98, I thought I'd take this chance to say based on ceiling, I'm moving Kwamie Brown into my Top 10 centers of all time list.

Strangely, Stockton did lead the league in assists for 8 or 9 years in a row back then. And that wasn't hypothetical at all. Silly me, and I always thought getting lot's of assists was what good PGs did.

If your going to be so absurd as to throw Kwame Brown in your potential top 10 centers of all-time I won't debate you anymore because what I have said is legit and your going this far off to talk about hypotheticals means I won't waste my time with you Congrats.


I mean if you don't think trading Shawn Kemp away hurt Seattle and gave the West to Utah your nuts. The Sonics should have taken care of their superstar with their cap space instead of a scrub backup center. The Utah Jazz won the West when Malone and Stockton were out of their primes in the mid 30s and if you are going to be ignorant and not realize its because the West self-destructed around them like the West did in the 80's around the Lakers I am done. Do not respond to this message because once somebody goes off as ridiculous(and not even funny if your going to be off the charts) as you did I am done with them.

 

[sufandu]

Before I read your 3rd paragraph, I was thinking, "Seems like your describing a proto-type shooting guard, not a point guard." And no sooner had I thought that then you imply Payton had 2 guard qualities as well. Maybe Payton played out of position and clearly Stockton is the better PG.

I like Karl Malone, I really do, but if he'd have played with Payton his entire career instead of Stockton, I think his point total would be a fair amount lower. (Stockton and Malone fit like a hand in a glove running the two-man game and on pick and rolls. Payton did not have the shooting prowess necessary to keep defenders honest and bring out the best in Malone and vice versa.) Not to mention, there wasn't much else of offensive value on those Utah teams. Who's to say that Payton didn't have overall better talent on his teams but couldn't utilize it fully?

If you asked me who the better PG is, Stockton, Kobe or Payton. I'd say Stockton. Your attempt to trap me by confusing the issue at hand about who is positionally better has failed. I will add this, when the Lakers do well, it's generally because Kobe isn't taking over the game, but that the whole team gets involved and Kobe facilitates more. When Kobe takes over, the Lakers tend to lose. This isn't some amazing revelation, I've heard many NBA analysts state the same thing.

A lot of PG's had 2 qualities. Isaiah Thomas had two qualities, does that mean he wasn't a point guard? What I said about Payton was that he often guarded the other team's 2 guard, so your weak attempt at twisting what I said has failed.

You attempted to using shooting percentage as an indicator that Stockton was a superior scorer to Payton. I pointed out a player with an even lower shooting percentage that anyone that has ever watched, coached, or played basketball would say is one of the best scorers off all time, to prove that shooting percentage is not as significant as you want to make it.

Karl Malone was an elite scorer. Yes, he and Stockton played well off of each other, but your suggestion that he would have scored significantly fewer points is exaggerated and impossible to prove. It's not as if Stockton was setting him up for dunks all of the time. How many of his points came from midrange jumpers? I don't know the numbers, but it was a lot. So another question that could be raised is, how many of Stockton's assists came from Malone hitting 19 foot jumpers? Payton never played with anyone as good as Malone in his prime. Who's to say Payton didn't have better overall talent? Everyone that has ever watched a basketball game.

I'll put it bold this time so that maybe you'll understand it. I said before that Stockton was the better overall player. My argument all along is that the gap isn't as significant as you say.http://syracusefan.com/#syracuse-athletics.1

 

[MonsterGame]

Thanks for calling me both nuts and ignorant. Resorting to name calling always wins the debate. Kudos to you for going there.

BTW, using "has a higher ceiling" as criteria for why someone is better, is as absurd as anything I wrote.

 

[MonsterGame]

A lot of PG's had 2 qualities. Isaiah Thomas had two qualities, does that mean he wasn't a point guard? What I said about Payton was that he often guarded the other team's 2 guard, so your weak attempt at twisting what I said has failed.

You attempted to using shooting percentage as an indicator that Stockton was a superior scorer to Payton. I pointed out a player with an even lower shooting percentage that anyone that has ever watched, coached, or played basketball would say is one of the best scorers off all time, to prove that shooting percentage is not as significant as you want to make it.

Karl Malone was an elite scorer. Yes, he and Stockton played well off of each other, but your suggestion that he would have scored significantly fewer points is exaggerated and impossible to prove. It's not as if Stockton was setting him up for dunks all of the time. How many of his points came from midrange jumpers? I don't know the numbers, but it was a lot. So another question that could be raised is, how many of Stockton's assists came from Malone hitting 19 foot jumpers? Payton never played with anyone as good as Malone in his prime. Who's to say Payton didn't have better overall talent? Everyone that has ever watched a basketball game.

I'll put it bold this time so that maybe you'll understand it. I said before that Stockton was the better overall player. My argument all along is that the gap isn't as significant as you say.

Thanks for the bold statement so I could understand you better. Unfortunately, like the rest of this post, it has a misunderstanding on your part to what I was actually saying. I was never comparing Stockton to Payton as players, I was comparing Stockton to Payton as point guards. And I'm not kidding about the rest of your post, there are misunderstandings about what I was saying scattered throughout and I'm sighing to much to respond to them all at this point.

 

[OrangeDW]

I figured while we're on the subject of hypothethical things that didn't happen like Seattle winning the west at least once in 97 or 98, I thought I'd take this chance to say based on ceiling, I'm moving Kwamie Brown into my Top 10 centers of all time list.

Strangely, Stockton did lead the league in assists for 8 or 9 years in a row back then. And that wasn't hypothetical at all. Silly me, and I always thought getting lot's of assists was what good PGs did.

I think you're completely misinterpreting what he meant by "ceiling". He wasn't using it in the "what Payton could've been" sense. He was using it meaning at their respective bests, Payton was better. I thought that was clear.

Yes, Stockton got more assists. That's one aspect of what good PG's do. Payton won NBA defensive player of the year and made first team all defense 9 times...things Stockton never did. They each had a few advantages over the other. Close call either way.

 

[RandygoCuse]

I'm surprised Jason Kidd hasn't entered the Stockton/Payton debates. He didn't have Payton's scoring and he wasn't quite the defender, but he did quarterback a championship team and could rack up the assists. His jumper improved a lot too. And he got the Nets to be good.

 

[Alsacs]

I think you're completely misinterpreting what he meant by "ceiling". He wasn't using it in the "what Payton could've been" sense. He was using it meaning at their respective bests, Payton was better. I thought that was clear.

Yes, Stockton got more assists. That's one aspect of what good PG's do. Payton won NBA defensive player of the year and made first team all defense 9 times...things Stockton never did. They each had a few advantages over the other. Close call either way.

You pretty much nailed it 100% what I said. I guess he didn't read my first post I said Stockton played at a higher level longer but Stockton's best wasn't as good as Payton's best. Stockton was an A- for 14 years, Payton was a A for 10 years, B for 1 year, C for 2 years. Thus the debate is which do you prefer neither side is wrong.