People making the talent argument, in the end, IMO that

[OrangeMuskyFish]

He would be fine with a very strong o line and and a strong running game, without that you need an athlete back there

Isn't that pretty much all QB's? And the very few rare ones are not coming here... at least not for a while.

I do agree though. While I don't think the lack of killer running speed is enough to knock Ryan out of the job at this juncture, we need the next wave to possess this weapon. At least until the line has a chance to solidify, and allow for a drop back passer. I just don't think it's fair to make it sound like Geno Smith would be able to come in and be AA without more help too.

 

[mantonio]

1. I am not trying to censor vagueness, I am trying to urge people to just resist from filling a message board with the same repetitive drivel. If there is some tidbit of logic, intelligence, or just some creativity, then great, fire away. But just repeating "we have no talent" over and over again is just GD stupid. Often, these people don't even clarify what it is that they mean, let alone how to fix it.

2. I am not going to do that work, because I don't think we lack talent. Sure, we certainly have room to improve. But it wasn't talent that led to the downfall, it was consistency. If you wish I can later give you a breakdown of why I think this way, but since I have to get going I will leave it at that for now.

3. You know exactly what I am talking about, too. Let's not pretend that your 321 CAP LOCKED posts of "WE NEED TALENT" are a blessing to us all in the in-game chatrooms. I love your optimism Mantonio, I consider myself on optimist as well, but IMO few things are more annoying on a message board than repetitive reactionary-driven comments constantly pushing good conversation off the front page.

We don't have enough talent to hide any inconsistencies, we only have enough to hover around .500...

If you want to win 10 to 12 games a season, you need REAL talent. The best coaches in America can only get 7 or 8 wins max out of this squad, so YES, talent is the issue.

Syracuse was one of the Big East contenders nearly every year in the 80's & 90's because they had more talent on the team than most of their opponents. Only Miami & Virginia Tech had better rosters, & guess what, those two teams won more games than Syracuse.

If you want to bring in a proven coach(good luck with that) to guarantee a solid 6 wins every year, I hope that satisfies you.

I would rather have a few recruiting specialists on staff & state of the art facilities to bring in super star players, because THAT is what ensures wins & conference titles.

 

[Millhouse]

Fine -- but we saw Nassib set passing records; Lemon set receiving records; Provo pass Gedney for TE catches. It wasn't wide open, but there certainly was a lot of passing this season. Nassib was under pressure a lot and didn't have the best set of receivers in the world.
With the talent on hand (and I know people find this hard to accept), Doug had to try to get into 2nd and 5 situations by using Bailey or by throwing underneath. We just aren't equipped to be lining up in 2nd and 10 and 3rd and 10 (obvious passing downs) and dealing with pass rushes and pressures.
Our OL was decent for run-blocking; not very good in pass-blocking.

I'd also like to see a better passing attack and -- my add -- a dual threat QB, with a better OL. But that is going to take some development of the frosh for the OL, a very fast development cycle for Hunt and Broyld, and the emergence of at least one top WR to pair with Lemon.

Enough about the passing records. It is just a function of more games and attempts. Rating isnt even close to the good qbs

 

[Forza Azzurri]

Is what will do Doug in, next year should be all his guys more ore less. If we are still losing because of talent, that falls back on the head coach as well. Its beginning to start to look like grob excuses all over. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that recruiting isn't going very well either

I just want to make sure that, after 500+ posts that all say the same thing, I'm positive that even the most literacy-challenged among us has been able to figure it out.

You think Marrone is doing a lousy job and should be fired.

 

[OrangePA]

Beamer went from 2-9 to 6-4-1 in year 3. Went 6-5 the next year - had two down years - and then never looked back after going 9-3 in year seven. It did not take him anywhere near 10 years although that gets referenced out here all the time.

You're right. Sorry.

Beamer won 25 games in his first six years.

In year six - six years after he began his program - he went 2-8-1.

I think you made the point better than I did.

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

Enough about the passing records. It is just a function of more games and attempts. Rating isnt even close to the good qbs

While not wrong, you really aren't a "walk before you can run," kinda guy... are ya?

 

[OrangeMuskyFish]

We don't have enough talent to hide any inconsistencies, we only have enough to hover around .500...

Our guys are just going to have to become more accountable, or be replaced. I think we are going to have an easier job finding players who bring consistency, than all of a sudden making the quantum leap to signing multiple players so electric that they hide there own inconsistencies, as well as those of others.

If you want to win 10 to 12 games a season, you need REAL talent. The best coaches in America can only get 7 or 8 wins max out of this squad, so YES, talent is the issue.

We are not going to just jump to winning 10-12 wins a year. And I highly doubt that 7 to 8 wins would have taken the best coaches in America. It took a tremendous crumble not to reach that goal. We are much closer to the grey area than many people think.

Syracuse was one of the Big East contenders nearly every year in the 80's & 90's because they had more talent on the team than most of their opponents. Only Miami & Virginia Tech had better rosters, & guess what, those two teams won more games than Syracuse.

Again, nobody is saying that more talent isn't good, or necessary. But continuing to click your heals and wishing is not going to just make it happen. Right or wrong, the coaches have a plan, which is more than I can say for many posters on this board.

If you want to bring in a proven coach(good luck with that) to guarantee a solid 6 wins every year, I hope that satisfies you.

Why do you think I want a new coach? You don't think that I can still believe that Marrone could be the answer AND think that we have talent on this roster? Well, I do on both counts. I don't think it is necessarily any one party's fault. I don't think the pieces fit together very well this year, and sometimes just happens.

I would rather have a few recruiting specialists on staff & state of the art facilities to bring in super star players, because THAT is what ensures wins & conference titles.

Still, nobody is arguing with you. The problem lies in the fact that you act like its very simple to just come up with devastatingly high tech facilities and more jobs for recruiting specialists.

 

[Millhouse]

While not wrong, you really aren't a "walk before you can run," kinda guy... are ya?

not sure what that means. i am definitely ready for a qb who can run.

 

[Cuseregular]

"it's going to be real hard to sit through another 90something ranked offense with a third year from a bad qb he inherited".[/quote]

Man you're not kidding. If its status quo at the qb position then I'm making a statement with a personal boycott......my statement will be getting and not leaving the tailgate for the game. Good statement there that I'm sure no one will notice.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

"it's going to be real hard to sit through another 90something ranked offense with a third year from a bad qb he inherited".

I am in... I think actually going to the dome and having to witness this stuff, is 10,000 times more aggravating that watching it on TV.. I don't get why Marrone has hitched his wagon to this, I just don't. If Hunt can step up, run him like crazy, all out. If he gets hurt you have Nassib waiting. It will be interesting to see what happens if Hunt gets a few series and has some real success. There is qb development, practice, film study and then there is what these kids do when the lights come on

 

[kingottoiii]

I am in... I think actually going to the dome and having to witness this stuff, is 10,000 times more aggravating that watching it on TV.. I don't get why Marrone has hitched his wagon to this, I just don't. If Hunt can step up, run him like crazy, all out. If he gets hurt you have Nassib waiting. It will be interesting to see what happens if Hunt gets a few series and has some real success. There is qb development, practice, film study and then there is what these kids do when the lights come on

Any O that requires a great deal of knowledge and could potentially keep a better QB on the bench is a POS O. At this point I rather run The Express all game long with Lemon than see what we ran the last two years with the "talent" we have coming back.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

Any O that requires a great deal of knowledge and could potentially keep a better QB on the bench is a POS O. At this point I rather run The Express all game long with Lemon than see what we ran the last two years with the "talent" we have coming back.

Hey you are preaching to the choir.. I just dont see Doug changing much, right or wrong. I actually dont see the staff changing much either

 

[RoysRunts]

Consistency, Let's see if Hackett is still on Board next year.

 

[sutomcat]

What do people talk about macky starting again next year-

grow a friggin mind-he was forced into it because of injuries-no way he starts next year again unless the 3 ahead again get hurt

This is not true. Macky was named the starter at center in the spring. DM didn't bother to even keep the position open in the fall to give Trudo or Allport a chance to win it.

If history means anything, it is unlikely Macky will lose his starting spot. If Trudo turns out to be as good as some of us think he is, he will likely be moved to guard and play there until Macky graduates and the center position is vacated.

 

[RoysRunts]

I agree with the"Moved to Guard" thought T.C. only I wish Macky would gain about 15 lbs and move to Guard.

 

[BlackKnight76]

I agree with the"Moved to Guard" thought T.C. only I wish Macky would gain about 15 lbs and move to Guard.

If Macky gains 15 pounds, why would you rather have him at guard than center?

 

[Chip]

Firing Wannstedt at Pitt after an eight or nine win season was a mistake.

While true, this is a little misleading. It was a 7-5 Pitt team that won it's bowl game. The Graham hiring really didn't set them back. They finished 6-6 this year. 2-3 in non conference play each year (with 2 cupcakes, 3 tough games each year). 5-2 in BE last year, 4-3 this year with a 3 point loss and a 1 point loss.

I know you were very anti Wanny firing, and maybe the first replacement hire would have been a disaster, who knows. But Graham has them very close to where they were, no real step back after many system changes. Now they look to move forward. Wasn't as if Wanny ever got over that Big East hump.

 

[Scooch]

I will think about it.

But one thing I do know is that instability is not the answer.

Look at Notre Dame - too many changes too quickly. For years now that program has been mediocre.

The same is probably true at UCLA - too many changes.

Turner Gill being fired after two years at Kansas was a mistake.

I agree with Ivan Maisel that firing Mike Sherman at Texas A&M was a mistake.

Firing Frank Solich at Nebraska was a mistake that set back that program back years.

Firing Wannstedt at Pitt after an eight or nine win season was a mistake.

Every time you fire a coach you start the process all over again. You have to reconnect with the recruiting base. Players have to learn a new system and new personnel. All of it takes time and money.

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present to you the University of Miami...

Howard Schnellenberger: First year was 1979, went 5-6 (Miami was 12-21 previous 3 years). Then goes 9-3, 9-2, 7-4 and 11-1, winning the national title in his 5th season.

Jimmy Johnson: Takes over when HS leaves for the USFL. 8-5 first year, then 10-2, 11-1, 12-0 (national title) and 11-1.

Dennis Erickson: Third Miami head coach in 6 years. Goes 11-1 and wins national title in first season. Then 10-2, and 12-0, winning 2nd national title. Then 11-1, 9-3, and 10-2.

Butch Davis: Fourth Miami coach in 12 years. Goes 8-3, 9-3, 5-6 (worst of the probation years), 9-3, 9-4, 11-1.

Larry Coker. Fifth Miami coach in 18 years. 12-0, national title, first year. Then 12-1, 11-2, 9-3, 9-3, 7-6.

Randy Shannon: Glory days are over.

Point is, if people want to trot out Beamer and Mac as examples of how it takes a long time to build a winner, and stability above all else is crucial, then I'm going to counter with Miami. Each of these examples are outliers. You don't HAVE to wait seven years to see success, and you don't HAVE to retain the same coach for a generation either.

 

[OburgOrange]

I miss the freeze option, sigh.

 

[ImperialOrange]

While true, this is a little misleading. It was a 7-5 Pitt team that won it's bowl game. The Graham hiring really didn't set them back. They finished 6-6 this year. 2-3 in non conference play each year (with 2 cupcakes, 3 tough games each year). 5-2 in BE last year, 4-3 this year with a 3 point loss and a 1 point loss.

I know you were very anti Wanny firing, and maybe the first replacement hire would have been a disaster, who knows. But Graham has them very close to where they were, no real step back after many system changes. Now they look to move forward. Wasn't as if Wanny ever got over that Big East hump.

If only Wanny had a QB that could run a 4.5 40 he might still be there!

 

[ImperialOrange]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present to you the University of Miami...

Howard Schnellenberger: First year was 1979, went 5-6 (Miami was 12-21 previous 3 years). Then goes 9-3, 9-2, 7-4 and 11-1, winning the national title in his 5th season.

Jimmy Johnson: Takes over when HS leaves for the USFL. 8-5 first year, then 10-2, 11-1, 12-0 (national title) and 11-1.

Dennis Erickson: Third Miami head coach in 6 years. Goes 11-1 and wins national title in first season. Then 10-2, and 12-0, winning 2nd national title. Then 11-1, 9-3, and 10-2.

Butch Davis: Fourth Miami coach in 12 years. Goes 8-3, 9-3, 5-6 (worst of the probation years), 9-3, 9-4, 11-1.

Larry Coker. Fifth Miami coach in 18 years. 12-0, national title, first year. Then 12-1, 11-2, 9-3, 9-3, 7-6.

Randy Shannon: Glory days are over.

Point is, if people want to trot out Beamer and Mac as examples of how it takes a long time to build a winner, and stability above all else is crucial, then I'm going to counter with Miami. Each of these examples are outliers. You don't HAVE to wait seven years to see success, and you don't HAVE to retain the same coach for a generation either.

Miami's a different story entirely. Recruiting in Coral Gables MIGHT just be a bit easier than most places in the country including . When boosters are paying a far number of said recruits it becomes easier still. Plus it wasn't coaches being fired for lack of productivity and leaving the cupboard bare, they were moving on and being replaced by guys who still had a ton of talent to work with. Shannons issue (aside from using recruiting websites to evaluate talent) may have been he tried to run a clean program.

If Marrone were to run off a few 10 win seasons in a row then leave for the NFL I'd assume the next SU head coach would be in good shape to produce from day 1.

 

[Scooch]

Miami's a different story entirely. Recruiting in Coral Gables MIGHT just be a bit easier than most places in the country including . When boosters are paying a far number of said recruits it becomes easier still. Plus it wasn't coaches being fired for lack of productivity and leaving the cupboard bare, they were moving on and being replaced by guys who still had a ton of talent to work with. Shannons issue (aside from using recruiting websites to evaluate talent) may have been he tried to run a clean program.

If Marrone were to run off a few 10 win seasons in a row then leave for the NFL I'd assume the next SU head coach would be in good shape to produce from day 1.

Sure, but that's not what was being argued. I've been seeing that it is imperative a program has stability to be successful. Well, Miami didn't have stability, and they won 5 national titles in 19 years. So it's not JUST stability at the HC spot, right? Other factors might apply?

That's all I'm saying.

 

[ImperialOrange]

Sure, but that's not what was being argued. I've been seeing that it is imperative a program has stability to be successful. Well, Miami didn't have stability, and they won 5 national titles in 19 years. So it's not JUST stability at the HC spot, right? Other factors might apply?

That's all I'm saying.

Dammit, you're saying it's talent aren't you? lol

I mean first and foremost you are correct in your statement. That being said...

Every school has different nuances and different hurdles to overcome in regards to recruiting but at SU they currently are a bit bigger hurdles in football. I see Syracuse as a school that, sans a rogue coach making it rain on recruiting visits and/or ignoring players off field transgressions, needs stability and to be built up to succeed. We've seen the Suc part, hopefully the rest shows up sooner vs later. There isn't much recruiting draw in the NE or Great lakes area unless the school is a football factory or the player actually holds academics to as high of a standard as they claim. I'll beat another dead horse and say facilities upgrades will be a game changer as well.

 

[OrangePA]

Ladies and gentlemen of the jury, I present to you the University of Miami...

Howard Schnellenberger: First year was 1979, went 5-6 (Miami was 12-21 previous 3 years). Then goes 9-3, 9-2, 7-4 and 11-1, winning the national title in his 5th season.

Jimmy Johnson: Takes over when HS leaves for the USFL. 8-5 first year, then 10-2, 11-1, 12-0 (national title) and 11-1.

Dennis Erickson: Third Miami head coach in 6 years. Goes 11-1 and wins national title in first season. Then 10-2, and 12-0, winning 2nd national title. Then 11-1, 9-3, and 10-2.

Butch Davis: Fourth Miami coach in 12 years. Goes 8-3, 9-3, 5-6 (worst of the probation years), 9-3, 9-4, 11-1.

Larry Coker. Fifth Miami coach in 18 years. 12-0, national title, first year. Then 12-1, 11-2, 9-3, 9-3, 7-6.

Randy Shannon: Glory days are over.

Point is, if people want to trot out Beamer and Mac as examples of how it takes a long time to build a winner, and stability above all else is crucial, then I'm going to counter with Miami. Each of these examples are outliers. You don't HAVE to wait seven years to see success, and you don't HAVE to retain the same coach for a generation either.

Good analysis.

If you watched the ESPN movie "The U" you learned that the key to what Howard Schnellenberg did was to convince a ton of local talent to stay home. They decided to make Miami a powerhouse.

And it worked because the talent level in south Florida is of course beyond description.

That kind of talent made Larry Coker look like a Hall of Fame coach for a couple of seasons.

The problem with the Miami example is that Howard Schnellenberger, Jimmy Johnson and Dennis Erickson weren't fired. They left for other jobs. When they did, the program was not gutted or re-organized. The basic same system was maintained and the same recruiting scheme was maintained.

Now, since Davis left Larry Coker with the best team ever to play college football in 2001, Coker has been fired and Shannon has been fired and Golden is just finishing his first year.

And the program has languished.

Much of that is due to the fact that other teams like Florida and other SEC teams are now getting the local kids to leave Miami.

But the change in leadership has probably not helped matters.

 

[Chip]

If you watched the ESPN movie "The U" you learned that the key to what Howard Schnellenberg did was to convince a ton of local talent to stay home. They decided to make Miami a powerhouse.

Trying to remember, and not get it confused with my Pete Carroll 60 minutes story, which is similar. But wasn't Schnellenberger more about going into Miami neighborhoods that no other school wanted to walk into? i.e. finding unrecruited talent in inner city Miami?

Not that this really has any point about the topic, just trying to see if I remembered the U correctly.