Pete Rose passes away at 83

[Dcuse]

I always thought they banned Pete from employment in the game to avoid him become Shoeless Joe since he hadn't been actually found to have done anything to throw a game and that honoring for what he'd done in the past ought to still be possible.

Also though, it was never proven that Joe Jackson threw a game. His teamates obviously did but he hit over .400 in the series.. I think they look at it as gambling is gambling and I agree with that.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

They are seperate but they are tied very closely at the hip. Manfred is on the Board of Directors of HoF, and the bylaws for ERA's Committees state: (c) Any person designated by the Office of the Commissioner of Major League Baseball as ineligible shall not be an eligible candidate. This could be amended but I would not hold my breath waiting for that happen.

Yep.

Pete not only gambled, but he gambled on games he was actively involved in AND lied to the powers that be about it. For those reasons I don't see the ban getting lifted anytime soon, if ever.

 

[donniesyracuse]

Also though, it was never proven that Joe Jackson threw a game. His teamates obviously did but he hit over .400 in the series.. I think they look at it as gambling is gambling and I agree with that.

The fact that he had an overall good series does not exonerate him. Throwing games can come down to single plays and plate appearances.

 

[orange79]

Yep.

Pete not only gambled, but he gambled on games he was actively involved in AND lied to the powers that be about it. For those reasons I don't see the ban getting lifted anytime soon, if ever.

As it should be, IMO. He walked past the No Gambling on Baseball sign every day of his playing and coaching career. He knew the deal. And didn't care.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

Why? It's not for Joe Jackson.

The HOF can admit anyone it wants to, or rather they can make their own eligibility rules, the the BBWA votes.

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The fact that he had an overall good series does not exonerate him. Throwing games can come down to single plays and plate appearances.

It’s my understanding that he admitted taking money, but said he never threw games, he was just taking the money.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

It’s my understanding that he admitted taking money, but said he never threw games, he was just taking the money.

Cause he never lied
Didn’t bet
Oops I did
Didn’t bet on baseball
Oops I did
Didn’t bet on reds games
Oops I did

 

[maxxyz]

It’s my understanding that he admitted taking money, but said he never threw games, he was just taking the money.

FIFY. You forgot to use the sarcasm font.

 

[donniesyracuse]

It’s my understanding that he admitted taking money, but said he never threw games, he was just taking the money.

That is one version. Sports writing at the time and the years afterwards was more about storytelling than truth. Supposedly, much of Eight Men Out (book and film) was fiction. Here is a link to podcast episode with Jake Pomrenke of SABR who discusses all that is known and still unknown about the scandal.

 

[Crusty]

Opinions may vary about whether or not Pete belongs in Cooperstown but not about his talent.
He certainly ranks among the best ever to play the game.
RIP Charlie Hustle.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

Opinions may vary about whether or not Pere belongs in Cooperstown but not about his talent.
He certainly ranks among the best ever to play the game.
RIP Charlie Hustle.

Career ops+ of 118. But he played forever . I think he’s quite overrated

 

[donniesyracuse]

Career ops+ of 118. But he played forever . I think he’s quite overrated

He is overrated, but he is a Hall of Famer. He compiled most of his 80 WAR prior to 1980. He had multiple negative WAR seasons in the 1980s, which hurt his career numbers. It’s a shame we don’t have statcast data from the era to better assess his defensive performance.

 

[pfister1]

But Shoeless Joe Jackson remains outside the HOF and he has been dead for decades. So maybe the decision of lifetime for baseball really means forever.

It was a lifetime ban from the game, not from our memories.

I always though that part of what was being done was postponing his election, so that he would not get to bask in the glory of it. He is a HUGE HUGE part of the history of the game, maybe as much as any other player that ever took the field, and his legacy both good and bad should be preserved in the HOF.

When a player is enshrined while still alive it is "glorifying" when enshrined after passing it is more about preserving history.

OUR MISSION​

PRESERVING HISTORY. HONORING EXCELLENCE. CONNECTING GENERATIONS.​

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is an independent, nonprofit educational institution dedicated to fostering an appreciation of the historical development of baseball and its impact on our culture by collecting, preserving, exhibiting and interpreting its collections for a global audience as well as honoring those who have made outstanding contributions to our national pastime.

The Hall of Fame's mission is to preserve the sport's history, honor excellence within the game and make a connection between the generations of people who enjoy baseball. Likewise the institution functions as three entities under one roof with a museum, the actual Hall of Fame and a research library. With these parts working together the Museum is committed to fulfilling its mission by:

-Collecting, through donation, baseball artifacts, works of art, literature, photographs, memorabilia and related materials which focus on the history of the game over time, its players and those elected to the Hall of Fame.
-Preserving the collections by adhering to professional museum standards with respect to conservation and maintaining a permanent record of holdings through documentation, study, research, cataloging and publication.
-Exhibiting material in permanent gallery space, organizing on-site changing exhibitions on various themes, with works from the Hall of Fame collections or other sources, working with other individuals or organizations to exhibit loaned material of significance to baseball and providing related research facilities.
Interpreting artifacts through its exhibition and education programs to enhance awareness, understanding and appreciation of the game for a diverse audience.
-Honoring, by enshrinement, those individuals who had exceptional careers, and recognizing others for their significant achievements.

 

[br801]

Rose was a durable high-end compiler with not much power who played a number of positions, none particularly well. His raw numbers are undeniable. He always played the game hard and it was impossible to not see that. He was a bit of a punk and a bully, but that also describes many who have played the game.

Unfortunately, he disrespected his sport's rule on gambling, and remained stubbornly unrepentant about his actions to the end. Sadly, that will be a big part of his legacy, too.

 

[cliftonparksufan]

It was a lifetime ban from the game, not from our memories.

I always though that part of what was being done was postponing his election, so that he would not get to bask in the glory of it. He is a HUGE HUGE part of the history of the game, maybe as much as any other player that ever took the field, and his legacy both good and bad should be preserved in the HOF.

When a player is enshrined while still alive it is "glorifying" when enshrined after passing it is more about preserving history.

OUR MISSION​

PRESERVING HISTORY. HONORING EXCELLENCE. CONNECTING GENERATIONS.​

The National Baseball Hall of Fame and Museum is an independent, nonprofit educational institution dedicated to fostering an appreciation of the historical development of baseball and its impact on our culture by collecting, preserving, exhibiting and interpreting its collections for a global audience as well as honoring those who have made outstanding contributions to our national pastime.

The Hall of Fame's mission is to preserve the sport's history, honor excellence within the game and make a connection between the generations of people who enjoy baseball. Likewise the institution functions as three entities under one roof with a museum, the actual Hall of Fame and a research library. With these parts working together the Museum is committed to fulfilling its mission by:

-Collecting, through donation, baseball artifacts, works of art, literature, photographs, memorabilia and related materials which focus on the history of the game over time, its players and those elected to the Hall of Fame.
-Preserving the collections by adhering to professional museum standards with respect to conservation and maintaining a permanent record of holdings through documentation, study, research, cataloging and publication.
-Exhibiting material in permanent gallery space, organizing on-site changing exhibitions on various themes, with works from the Hall of Fame collections or other sources, working with other individuals or organizations to exhibit loaned material of significance to baseball and providing related research facilities.
Interpreting artifacts through its exhibition and education programs to enhance awareness, understanding and appreciation of the game for a diverse audience.
-Honoring, by enshrinement, those individuals who had exceptional careers, and recognizing others for their significant achievements.

Quite interesting. Makes me wonder on how Bonds and Clemens will be treated longer term. I was neither a Bonds or Clemens fan, per se, but it always pissed me off that Selig and company profitted from the steroid era. Selig gets into the HOF, but these guys are strung along. Here is some insight from Bonds. Barry Bonds Pleads Hall of Fame Case, Says He’s Been ‘Vindicated’ - Sports Illustrated

 

[tbonezone]

great player. never a fan. probably should be in the HOF based on his on field performance.

 

[Cusefan95]

Cause he never lied
Didn’t bet
Oops I did
Didn’t bet on baseball
Oops I did
Didn’t bet on reds games
Oops I did

One of the many things Rose's defenders overlook is that betting for the Reds to win a particular game is as bad as betting on them to lose when you are the manager (which he was...). One of the things about Rose as a manager was his mind boggling use of his bullpen; he would play some game in June like it was the seventh game of the World Series while others he would leave a starter in well past the point he should have been pulled. Its kinda suspicious looking back on it now, although at the time everyone assumed he was just a dope of a manager.

My guess is baseball has some documentation to show he over used his bullpen in games he'd bet on. They aren't going to bring it up publicly at this point - but anyone that is a new commish is going to see it and be told "this is on the list of reasons why he's never being allowed into the HOF".

Personally, If Rose gets in then there's literally no justification for anyone at all being left out if they have the stats to merit inclusion - Shoeless Joe, Clements, Bonds - everyone needs to be let in. Because Rose is the absolute last man on the list of guys currently not in that should ever be allowed in the HOF.

 

[Cusefan95]

You are out of baseball, not the HOF, which is separate.

In 1991, the Baseball Hall of Fame board voted to enact a rule that nobody on the banned list can be inducted into the HOF. So it’s not exactly the same thing - but in Rose’s case (or in the case of anyone with an explicitly permanent ban like Shoeless Joe) it effectively is.

The possible workaround would be something similar to Roberto Alomar - he was banned (not for gambling) in 2021, but was already in the HOF and wasn’t removed as a result of being banned. If someone was enshrined in the HOF and the permanently banned for gambling, I don’t think the rules are entirely clear if they would be removed or not (although I may be wrong on this piece).

 

[Crusty]

Shoeless Joe is probably more famous being banned than if he had been allowed in!

 

[bpo57]

Rose was a durable high-end compiler with not much power who played a number of positions, none particularly well. His raw numbers are undeniable. He always played the game hard and it was impossible to not see that. He was a bit of a punk and a bully, but that also describes many who have played the game.

Unfortunately, he disrespected his sport's rule on gambling, and remained stubbornly unrepentant about his actions to the end. Sadly, that will be a big part of his legacy, too.

Your impression of his defense is similar to mine so I was surprised to see that he won eight consecutive gold gloves. His ability to play just about anywhere on the field was impressive.

 

[bpo57]

Career ops+ of 118. But he played forever . I think he’s quite overrated

About five years ago I went to a dinner with about 8-10 people where Rose was the guest of honor. We got to ask him a lot of questions and obviously he told stories and went over his many accomplishments. He said the one stat he was most proud of was the # of wins his team won with him in the lineup - 1,972, more than 100 wins above the next closest player. Also talked about his career average against several HoF pitchers- Drysdale, Gibson, Sutton, Marichal to name a few - all over .300. He admitted that Koufax owned him. Mentioned that his team won 16 out of 17 all star games. Ten times with 200 hits or more.

Perusing his baseball reference page it's hard to make the case he was overrated. jmo

 

[STEVEHOLT]

About five years ago I went to a dinner with about 8-10 people where Rose was the guest of honor. We got to ask him a lot of questions and obviously he told stories and went over his many accomplishments. He said the one stat he was most proud of was the # of wins his team won with him in the lineup - 1,972, more than 100 wins above the next closest player. Also talked about his career average against several HoF pitchers- Drysdale, Gibson, Sutton, Marichal to name a few - all over .300. He admitted that Koufax owned him. Mentioned that his team won 16 out of 17 all star games. Ten times with 200 hits or more.

Perusing his baseball reference page it's hard to make the case he was overrated. jmo

You can be an excellent player and still be overrated. All overrated means is your value was outstripped by the collective perception of it. I can guarantee you most baseball fans would be surprised to find he was only 18% better than the average hitter. He doesn’t hold a candle to these guys. He was a versatile defender and played multiple positions, but he wasn’t great at any of them. He was a very good player for a very long time. By merits he should be in the Hall. Still overrated though .

Career OPS+

1. Babe Ruth, 206
2. Ted Williams, 190
3. Barry Bonds, 182
4. Lou Gehrig, 179
5. Mike Trout, 176
6. Rogers Hornsby, 175
7. Mickey Mantle, 172
8. Dan Brouthers, 171
9. Joe Jackson, 170
10. Ty Cobb, 168
11. Pete Browning, 163
12. Jimmie Foxx, 163
13. Mark McGwire, 163
14. Dave Orr, 162
15. Stan Musial, 159
16. Hank Greenberg, 158
17. Johnny Mize, 158
18. Tris Speaker, 157
19. Dick Allen, 156
20. Willie Mays, 156
21. Frank Thomas 156

 

[pfister1]

The attitude he brought to the game, the will to win and the fire he lit under teammates can't be measured and was matched by few......

 

[bpo57]

You can be an excellent player and still be overrated. All overrated means is your value was outstripped by the collective perception of it. I can guarantee you most baseball fans would be surprised to find he was only 18% better than the average hitter. He doesn’t hold a candle to these guys. He was a versatile defender and played multiple positions, but he wasn’t great at any of them. He was a very good player for a very long time. By merits he should be in the Hall. Still overrated though .

Career OPS+

1. Babe Ruth, 206
2. Ted Williams, 190
3. Barry Bonds, 182
4. Lou Gehrig, 179
5. Mike Trout, 176
6. Rogers Hornsby, 175
7. Mickey Mantle, 172
8. Dan Brouthers, 171
9. Joe Jackson, 170
10. Ty Cobb, 168
11. Pete Browning, 163
12. Jimmie Foxx, 163
13. Mark McGwire, 163
14. Dave Orr, 162
15. Stan Musial, 159
16. Hank Greenberg, 158
17. Johnny Mize, 158
18. Tris Speaker, 157
19. Dick Allen, 156
20. Willie Mays, 156
21. Frank Thomas 156

The concept of being overrated has an element of subjectivity to it.

Using OPS as the defining metric is shaky imo. Tends to favor the 40 dinger guy that strikes out 180 times a year. Some great players are not on your OPS+ list. Aaron, Clemente, Bench, Griffey Jr to name just a few. Several of the guys on your list played 100 years ago. Hard to compare eras like that.

 

[STEVEHOLT]

The concept of being overrated has an element of subjectivity to it.

Using OPS as the defining metric is shaky imo. Tends to favor the 40 dinger guy that strikes out 180 times a year. Some great players are not on your OPS+ list. Aaron, Clemente, Bench, Griffey Jr to name just a few. Several of the guys on your list played 100 years ago. Hard to compare eras like that.

Well sure these are the very best of the very best and ops+ is just an offensive stat that doesn’t take into account defense at all. But it is normalized for the era in which you played so cross era comparisons are valid.

With regards to Griffey jr specifically , he tarnished his career OPS in his late 30’s years which were average to below average .