Peyton or Eli

[Ghost]

Only five quarterbacks have won multiple SB trophies and SB MVPs, he is one of them. I think he gets in (all in).

It very may well get him in, but it shouldn't it. He's definitely a second tier QB at best. He's capable of playing at an elite level (and has played that way at the right times I guess to cement his legacy), but is he on par with the best of the game - nope, and he never has been. He's no Mark Sanchez, but he's not even close to being on the same level as Aaron Rogers or Drew Brees, etc...either.

 

[orange79]

It very may well get him in, but it shouldn't it. He's definitely a second tier QB at best. He's capable of playing at an elite level (and has played that way at the right times I guess to cement his legacy), but is he on par with the best of the game - nope, and he never has been. He's no Mark Sanchez, but he's not even close to being on the same level as Aaron Rogers or Drew Brees, etc...either.

And yet, who would you want in a huge game? I know who I'd want...

 

[mountaincuse]

It very may well get him in, but it shouldn't it. He's definitely a second tier QB at best. He's capable of playing at an elite level (and has played that way at the right times I guess to cement his legacy), but is he on par with the best of the game - nope, and he never has been. He's no Mark Sanchez, but he's not even close to being on the same level as Aaron Rogers or Drew Brees, etc...either.

He's better than Rivers.

 

[Ghost]

He's better than Rivers.

He's the same as Rivers.

 

[orange79]

He's the same as Rivers.

Really? How many rings doe Rivers have? How many game-winnning 4th quarter/OT drives does Rivers have? Don't just look at overall numbers. Look at when they happen. Clutch.

 

[Ghost]

Really? How many rings doe Rivers have? How many game-winnning 4th quarter/OT drives does Rivers have? Don't just look at overall numbers. Look at when they happen. Clutch.

Fine, outside of Super Bowls Eli Manning isn't even on the same level as Phil Rivers. I was giving Manning bonus points for the Super Bowls/Playoffs - deservedly so.

4th Quarter drives, I don't know, what's Eli success rate on 4th Quarter/OT drives? For all I know his mistakes in the first 3.5 quarters gives himself way more chances than PR.

Actual stats, before this year Eli/PR were separated by 1 in 4th Q comebacks, Game Winning Drives and Manning had 23 more starts. Manning had a ton more this year so now he's about 8 or 9 ahead in each category in about 23 more starts. Maybe this is the year where Eli became better than PR. Who knows. It's no big deal - not trying to offend Eli fans - he's very good.

 

[orange79]

Fine, outside of Super Bowls Eli Manning isn't even on the same level as Phil Rivers. I was giving Manning bonus points for the Super Bowls/Playoffs - deservedly so.

4th Quarter drives, I don't know, what's Eli success rate on 4th Quarter/OT drives? For all I know his mistakes in the first 3.5 quarters gives himself way more chances than PR.

Actual stats, before this year Eli/PR were separated by 1 in 4th Q comebacks, Game Winning Drives and Manning had 23 more starts. Manning had a ton more this year so now he's about 8 or 9 ahead in each category in about 23 more starts. Maybe this is the year where Eli became better than PR. Who knows. It's no big deal - not trying to offend Eli fans - he's very good.

Understood. And I'm too lazy (and working) to look up his 4th qtr success rate. I think I saw during the SB that his 1st 3 qtr rating was in the 80's, but 4th qtr/OT was 110. And you're right - it is no big deal. Fun discussing, though.

 

[Marsh01]

He's the same as Rivers.

Not even close. What people are failing to realize is that he did this all year with the WORST rushing attack in football. The worst. Teams KNEW they were going to have to throw to win games and he did just that. This kid is so elite. Mentally the toughest quarterback in the league and that cant even be argued.

What does he have to prove to anyone? 2 rings and still in the prime of his career. I dont care that Brees or Rodgers are better. Fine, no argument here. EAsk any GM who they would rather have between Romo, Eli, Rivers and its unanimous.

Maybe when he wins title #4 in 5 years he gets more respect?

 

[orange79]

Maybe when he wins title #4 in 5 years he gets more respect?

Bold talk, my friend. (Please let this happen. After, of course, our NC this year.)

 

[Ghost]

Not even close. What people are failing to realize is that he did this all year with the WORST rushing attack in football. The worst. Teams KNEW they were going to have to throw to win games and he did just that. This kid is so elite. Mentally the toughest quarterback in the league and that cant even be argued.

What does he have to prove to anyone? 2 rings and still in the prime of his career. I dont care that Brees or Rodgers are better. Fine, no argument here. EAsk any GM who they would rather have between Romo, Eli, Rivers and its unanimous.

Maybe when he wins title #4 in 5 years he gets more respect?

And they had one of the better rushing attacks in the playoffs - does that diminish his playoff performance in your eyes?

In 2010 they had one of the best running attacks and Eli kind of sucked. Maybe this year was an aberration.

I'm not arguing that Eli isn't good by the way, just saying good QB's with very good defenses can win multiple Super Bowls. It doesn't make them elite by default.

 

[Marsh01]

And they had one of the better rushing attacks in the playoffs - does that diminish his playoff performance in your eyes?

In 2010 they had one of the best running attacks and Eli kind of sucked. Maybe this year was an aberration.

Well he also has the best set of receiving corps he ever has had this year which helps any quarterback. 2010 Nicks was a second year guy, Smith was a poor mans Wes Welker and Manningham was a nothing. I hear the arguments but going forward you will see the same level of play from him assuming they keep all three of their WR's together.

 

[orange79]

Well he also has the best set of receiving corps he ever has had this year which helps any quarterback. 2010 Nicks was a second year guy, Smith was a poor mans Wes Welker and Manningham was a nothing. I hear the arguments but going forward you will see the same level of play from him assuming they keep all three of their WR's together.

MM is a free agent, no? I think Cruz and Micks are still under contract.

 

[Marsh01]

MM is a free agent, no? I think Cruz and Micks are still under contract.

Yes he is and they really need to resign him. They also need a TE big time with Ballard and Beckham out with torn ACL's.

 

[Ghost]

Well he also has the best set of receiving corps he ever has had this year which helps any quarterback. 2010 Nicks was a second year guy, Smith was a poor mans Wes Welker and Manningham was a nothing. I hear the arguments but going forward you will see the same level of play from him assuming they keep all three of their WR's together.

That could be - he's certainly got all the tools.

 

[mountaincuse]

He's the same as Rivers.

I started this argument and then missed the whole thing!

Rivers would crumble if he was in Eli's shoes, no way he could handle playing in NYC.

Rivers has had the better teams (Marsh talked to this already) and easier route to the playoffs and has zero SB appearances. I will give him credit for gutting out the playoff game against Indy though.

He may have better fantasy numbers but that doesn't put rings on fingers.

 

[mountaincuse]

Yes he is and they really need to resign him. They also need a TE big time with Ballard and Beckham out with torn ACL's.

I don't see super Mario coming back - he would be if he will take third reciever money but he will want more than that. A TE would be great though, sick of waiting for Beckham to stay healthy. Ballard was great this year but is slow.

 

[Ghost]

I started this argument and then missed the whole thing!

Rivers would crumble if he was in Eli's shoes, no way he could handle playing in NYC.

Rivers has had the better teams (Marsh talked to this already) and easier route to the playoffs and has zero SB appearances. I will give him credit for gutting out the playoff game against Indy though.

He may have better fantasy numbers but that doesn't put rings on fingers.

I know of examples in other sports, but who are the QB's or football players that crumbled from playing in NY? I don't think that's ever really been an issue so not sure why Rivers would fall victim to that pressure.

Eli has had some pretty potent rushing attacks in the playoffs, Rivers had LT - who is perhaps best known for crumbling in the playoffs. Does that mean Rivers should be elevated ahead of Eli? Eli has better playoff teams. Doesn't really add much to the debate.

I guess it depends on how far down you want the elite QB's go, but I just couldn't put Eli in the same class as Rogers, Brees, Brady, Peyton, etc...even with the Super Bowl wins. Non-elite QB's have won Super Bowls, and if the 49ers win the next two Super Bowls I wouldn't put Alex Smith up with them either. I wouldn't call Big Ben elite either - he's in the next tier with Eli, Rivers, etc...

Prior to this year, Rivers would have been ahead of Eli imo, after this year, I would put him behind him. It's probably the first time in his career anyone would rank him ahead of Rivers though. Anyone other than Giants fan at least.

I can see your points though.

 

[mountaincuse]

The pressure comment was about the media pressure, I just don't think with Rivers attitude he would be able to hack it. He has the perfect attitude for San Diego. Eli let's everything roll off his back and doesn't pay attenion to much.

 

[CaliCuse]

I wouldn't dismi

First ballot? Not a chance in hell. Cris Carter and Bill Parcells are not in yet, no way does Eli get in first ballot. Not a freaking chance in hell.

Eli as a first timer ballot cannot be discounted He has pulled off a couple non probable wins in the Super Bowl and has the rings to prove it. That will go along way to putting him in quickly. Parcells made quite a few people cringe at some of his press conferences. You don't make friends by slamming their words if they don't agree with you or your style. Like Jimmy Parcell is a guy who will tell you what your opinion is after he tells you how and what to think.

 

[orange79]

I wouldn't dismi
Eli as a first timer ballot cannot be discounted He has pulled off a couple non probable wins in the Super Bowl and has the rings to prove it. That will go along way to putting him in quickly. Parcells made quite a few people cringe at some of his press conferences. You don't make friends by slamming their words if they don't agree with you or your style. Like Jimmy Parcell is a guy who will tell you what your opinion is after he tells you how and what to think.

He's not a first ballot yet. He's got some work to do, but he certainly has a great start

 

[Ghost]

Curt Warner's opinion:

http://www.nfl.com/news/story/09000...eady-hall-of-famer?module=HP11_headline_stack

"I mean, he has an 82 quarterback rating throughout his career," Warner continues. "You know, he’s had five of his eight seasons where he has thrown 16 interceptions or more. His completion percentage on his career is 58 percent. To me, those aren’t Hall of Fame numbers, and by that, I mean every time you step on the field you’re a game changer, you’re a difference maker. And I don’t believe Eli Manning has been that guy until this year.

 

[Bayside44]

Joe Namath is in Canton for Super Bowl III.

Last I checked sports is about winning big, not about compiling of stats (I don't play fantasy sports so I don't look at it that way). Eli has 2 rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and two drives for the ages on top of a big pile of wins and playoff seasons. How the heck does Aaron Rogers suddenly jump so far ahead of him in the conversation, never mind a guy like Rivers.

 

[Marsh01]

Joe Namath is in Canton for Super Bowl III.

Last I checked sports is about winning big, not about compiling of stats (I don't play fantasy sports so I don't look at it that way). Eli has 2 rings, 2 Super Bowl MVPs, and two drives for the ages on top of a big pile of wins and playoff seasons. How the heck does Aaron Rogers suddenly jump so far ahead of him in the conversation, never mind a guy like Rivers.

My argument as well. Rodgers has one great season (he was decent last year and got hot) and all of a sudden he is a hall of famer? Rivers is a joke and wont even sniff the HOF. I wouldnt trust him from first and goal from the 1 with the defense having 6 guys on the field.

Namath in is a bigger joke. His numbers suck. Maybe if Eli guaranteed his 2 titles? Hmmmmm...

 

[rrlbees]

Archie

 

[Ghost]

My argument as well. Rodgers has one great season (he was decent last year and got hot) and all of a sudden he is a hall of famer? Rivers is a joke and wont even sniff the HOF. I wouldnt trust him from first and goal from the 1 with the defense having 6 guys on the field.

Namath in is a bigger joke. His numbers suck. Maybe if Eli guaranteed his 2 titles? Hmmmmm...

And yet Rivers is undefeated against Eli. Since QB's are pretty much all that factor into these games, I guess that means he's better than Eli.

These whole arguments are Eli-fan boy based so they're not really winnable. It's not like Eli made that Williams dude fumble over the game to the Giants in the Conference Championship - if he did that, then he would be elite.

Analysis doesn't begin and end with the Super Bowl - if it did Brad Johnson would forever be remembered as a super awesome almost HOF worthy QB. Match-ups matter, leagues matter, defenses, all of it. Plus, unless someone does something special and sets a record QB's win MVP by default typically. I don't know, if Welker makes that catch, or Tyree drops his it wouldn't mean Eli sucks either. Although maybe he would to Giants fan - who knows.

I sincerely doubt you could more than a handful of non-Giants fan who think Eli is in the same ballpark as Rogers as a QB.