Class of 2017 PG Isaiah Washington (NY) Transferring from Minnesota to Iona

RF2044

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He's listed everywhere at 6'3 and has rarely played PG thus far in his life. Whether or not 6'3 constitutes the use of the word long can be debated but if you have a better description than combo guard than I'd love to hear it.
Scoring point. Which is what Carey is.

"Combo guard" usually refers to a bigger player who has enough versatility to run the point, even though it isn't their natural position.

And this should go without saying, but don't believe everything that you read regarding basketball heights.
 

chugg21

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Scoring point. Which is what Carey is.

"Combo guard" usually refers to a bigger player who has enough versatility to run the point, even though it isn't their natural position.

And this should go without saying, but don't believe everything that you read regarding basketball heights.
Obviously but it's all relative. The 6'6 guys aren't 6'6 either. Scoring guard works for me, but he only started playing the point this year after an injury so I can't imagine that he will have that natural PG 6th sense that guys that have been playing the position their entire life have. We have been missing that since Ennis and I'm so desperate for a floor general type after these past few years of watching ISO ball. Also acknowledging that Washington isn't that either. I just want to see a PG break down his guy, get into the lane and whip a pass to the corner for an open 3 or be able to make a simple pocket pass to the big rolling down the lane on the P and R.
 

RF2044

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Obviously but it's all relative. The 6'6 guys aren't 6'6 either. Scoring guard works for me, but he only started playing the point this year after an injury so I can't imagine that he will have that natural PG 6th sense that guys that have been playing the position their entire life have. We have been missing that since Ennis and I'm so desperate for a floor general type after these past few years of watching ISO ball. Also acknowledging that Washington isn't that either. I just want to see a PG break down his guy, get into the lane and whip a pass to the corner for an open 3 or be able to make a simple pocket pass to the big rolling down the lane on the P and R.
I guess I'm not as concerned about Carey -- that's not to say that there won't be an adjustment period to playing at the next level, but his skills are translatable. And it isn't uncommon for top prospects to be scoring oriented at the HS level, since they often are so much more talented than the opposition.

I agree that we've lacked that guard for a LONG time. Was hopeful that Gillon would provide some of that last year, but was surprised by how relatively "weak" his handle was. Usually guards that size are waterbugs with the ball in their hands.
 

Conrad13

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I'm enjoying this debate. I agree with chugg and RF that I'm dying to get an offense initiating PG (but maybe I. Washington isn't that guy). I took a "We want all your guards!" approach to see what taking everybody would look like. Here are our upcoming and potential point and shooting guards for the next few years (projected graduation year next to the name)

H. Washington 21
Boeheim 22
I. Washington 22
Carey 22
Bertram 23
Goodine 23
Girard 23

If everybody stayed we'd have 7 guards in 19-20 and 20-21, which is probably way too much, but maybe not considering with 13 scholarships, we would still be able to go 2 deep at the 3, 4, and 5 positions. Maybe it would be silly to take everyone, but after the game last night, I'm not ready to say no to any help at the guard position.
 

orangefog

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I'm enjoying this debate. I agree with chugg and RF that I'm dying to get an offense initiating PG (but maybe I. Washington isn't that guy). I took a "We want all your guards!" approach to see what taking everybody would look like. Here are our upcoming and potential point and shooting guards for the next few years (projected graduation year next to the name)

H. Washington 21
Boeheim 22
I. Washington 22
Carey 22
Bertram 23
Goodine 23
Girard 23

If everybody stayed we'd have 7 guards in 19-20 and 20-21, which is probably way too much, but maybe not considering with 13 scholarships, we would still be able to go 2 deep at the 3, 4, and 5 positions. Maybe it would be silly to take everyone, but after the game last night, I'm not ready to say no to any help at the guard position.
And don't forget Elijah Hughes. He would be class of 2021, right?
 

chugg21

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I guess I'm not as concerned about Carey -- that's not to say that there won't be an adjustment period to playing at the next level, but his skills are translatable. And it isn't uncommon for top prospects to be scoring oriented at the HS level, since they often are so much more talented than the opposition.

I agree that we've lacked that guard for a LONG time. Was hopeful that Gillon would provide some of that last year, but was surprised by how relatively "weak" his handle was. Usually guards that size are waterbugs with the ball in their hands.
Trying to win in college basketball without one is like trying to win in the NFL without a QB. It can happen but it sure as hell isn't likely.
 

Melancer46

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He is a freshman on a team worse than SU. So if you really want to try and quantify it then so be it. This is not the NBA.

I watched a boatload of Minnesota games this year and they are not an overall efficient team in how they play, just a little bit better in adjusted off. than SU on Ken Pom. Washington is a playmaker who takes risks. He also is a shoot first point guard. Given the team he played on, being a higher usage guy whose minutes fluctuated and being a freshman, I would argue you are getting far too deep into the numbers to evaluate the kid.

Given the tentative nature of our guards this year, our struggles to open up defenses , this kid adds a lot of value in that aspect of the game. If we were talking the NBA then sure let's talk PER as a solid measure of rookies. College freshmen?? Too early, gotta look at everything.
Even relative to his teammates he was one of the worst players on the team statistically speaking. He looks cool sometimes but he was simply awful this season.

Of course he could potentially improve as he gains experience, but there's no logical argument to be made that he was anything but a bad player this year. A shoot-first PG that can't make shots is a bad player. Mid-range jumpers are the biggest part of his offense and he's shot 31% there this season. 24% from 3. Those are ungodly bad numbers for a shoot-first player.

Again, I'm not saying he has no chance to become a decent player, but he's been very bad this season.
 

Orangezoo

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Even relative to his teammates he was one of the worst players on the team statistically speaking. He looks cool sometimes but he was simply awful this season.

Of course he could potentially improve as he gains experience, but there's no logical argument to be made that he was anything but a bad player this year. A shoot-first PG that can't make shots is a bad player. Mid-range jumpers are the biggest part of his offense and he's shot 31% there this season. 24% from 3. Those are ungodly bad numbers for a shoot-first player.

Again, I'm not saying he has no chance to become a decent player, but he's been very bad this season.
I still think very bad is a huge over exaggeration. He was an out of control freshman who was a little too focused on getting his. He also showcased how creative he can be on the ball. I think average is a much fairer assessment. Not to mention he isn't playing for a program established enough or proven to develop players given it's a newer staff. His trajectory in that space isn't good. With a more seasoned staff, could be a much different animal.
 

Orangezoo

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College basketball is a guard-driven game -- no doubt.
Add to that guards who can play off one another. Frank and Tyus make two talented parts, but often act like they have never played together on the court. I hope with Carey, Hughes and Buddy we get some chemistry out there. I do think Bazely will help a lot with that but still we need guards who are willing to work hard to get open, and understand their teammates to swing the ball quickly to find a teammate. Right now, unless Frank is purely a SG next year, that issue might resurface if he is on the court.
 

Melancer46

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I still think very bad is a huge over exaggeration. He was an out of control freshman who was a little too focused on getting his. He also showcased how creative he can be on the ball. I think average is a much fairer assessment. Not to mention he isn't playing for a program established enough or proven to develop players given it's a newer staff. His trajectory in that space isn't good. With a more seasoned staff, could be a much different animal.
Perhaps where we're disagreeing is that you might be comparing him only to other freshman? I'm not sure. But ignoring what year he is, he was a terrible basketball player this season.
 

Orangezoo

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Perhaps where we're disagreeing is that you might be comparing him only to other freshman? I'm not sure. But ignoring what year he is, he was a terrible basketball player this season.
Just overall disagreement. I watched about 15 of the Gophers games and did not come away with that impression. Inconsistent? Yes. Terrible? No.
 

Melancer46

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Just overall disagreement. I watched about 15 of the Gophers games and did not come away with that impression. Inconsistent? Yes. Terrible? No.
I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree then.
 

OrangeDW

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His 2 and 3 point percentages are just horrible. But oddly his FT %’s have been in the 70s both years.

Not sure what to make of that.

Does he have a decent stroke and just hasn’t gotten going yet, like D. Nichols his first two seasons?

Or is he a bad shooter, other than FT’s?
 

OttoinGrotto

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At one point I was all in on thinking he would have been great for us, but now we have too many guards to make adding him realistic.
 

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