Postgame Thoughts… ND

[SWC75]

Then you are misremembering, in a misguided attempt to score a talking point.

One of us is.

 

[RF2044]

One of us is.

Correct -- and that someone is you. So let me present to you the actual facts, which even you won't be able to rationalize away -- even though I'm sure you'll try.

Arinze and Rick were fantastic college players -- outstanding despite their limitations -- but the notion that they played extensive minutes together is false.

• Rick averaged ~26 MPG
• Arinze averaged ~23 MPG
• Coach Boeheim started them together at the beginning of halves, then would quickly rotate one out because:
  • Boeheim preferred to play a versatile pair of combo forward in Wes / Kris over the big man tandem, because that was our best scoring / most dangerous lineup
  • Kris Joseph averaged more minutes than both of those players
  • Kris was also the 6th man of the year, according to one publication
  • Whichever big rotated out would be based upon a variety of factors, including:
    • Fouls
    • Matchups
    • Whoever happened to be playing better at that given time in any given game
• More than 50% of Rick's time in 2009-2010 came playing center, not PF where he started -- this analysis has been validated many times over the years, when this question comes up
• Neither Rick nor Arinze could make any shots outside of the shadow of the basket
• Neither Rick nor Arinze made nor even attempted any three point shots
• Although both of their skill sets were slightly different, they were both basically players who scored inside with power, and didn't stray out of the paint

So in light of all of the above, yes, SWC -- both Arinze and Rick playing in tandem clogged the lane, by definition.

That was also a team that -- prior to Arinze's injury -- had perfect balance and chemistry. It was the best passing team we've had since Sherman Douglas ran the point, and the interior passing was fantastic. Them playing together wasn't a massive liability, but it occurred in limited doses because our best lineup featured both Wes / Kris at forward along with one -- not both -- of the bigs. Both of those things can simultaneously be true at the same time.

But those two playing together as "twin towers" was a limited use case that occurred at the beginning of halves, with more than 50% of their respective PT being when the other player wasn't on the floor.

So let's dispense with misconstrued, fallacy interpretations that we weren't good that year, or that they didn't start most games together [Arinze missed a few due to injury], or that they were completely incompatible, or that there weren't some gorgeous touch passes inside between Arinze / Rick for easy scores -- because none of that is relevant to what's being discussed, and none of that is what I'm saying. But yes, two low post players who can't score outside the shadow of the basket clog the lane. That was true 13 years ago, and it's even more true in contemporary basketball, where bigs are expected to have more versatility than in days gone by.

Which is why Irt4su shouldn't let the nonsense I'm responding to above detract from the astute observation he made. Edwards and Brown are compatible, but some adjustments will need to be made so that we're not handcuffing Mintz's penetration.

Why?

Because two bigs who are chained to the paint clog the lane, if neither of them can step out and face up. Jesse and Brown can't do that, and neither could Rick / Arinze 13 years ago.

 

[SWC75]

They really didn’t play that much together - they both averaged slightly over a half a game (around 22 to 26 minutes each)

Rick started all 35 games, Arinze 31, ending with his injury. Rick wasn’t his back-up. He was the power forward.

 

[SWC75]

Correct -- and that someone is you. So let me present to you the actual facts, which even you won't be able to rationalize away -- even though I'm sure you'll try.

Arinze and Rick were fantastic college players -- outstanding despite their limitations -- but the notion that they played extensive minutes together is false.

• Rick averaged ~26 MPG
• Arinze averaged ~23 MPG
• Coach Boeheim started them together at the beginning of halves, then would quickly rotate one out because:
  • Boeheim preferred to play a versatile pair of combo forward in Wes / Kris over the big man tandem, because that was our best scoring / most dangerous lineup
  • Kris Joseph averaged more minutes than both of those players
  • Kris was also the 6th man of the year, according to one publication
  • Whichever big rotated out would be based upon a variety of factors, including:
    • Fouls
    • Matchups
    • Whoever happened to be playing better at that given time in any given game
• More than 50% of Rick's time in 2009-2010 came playing center, not PF where he started -- this analysis has been validated many times over the years, when this question comes up
• Neither Rick nor Arinze could make any shots outside of the shadow of the basket
• Neither Rick nor Arinze made nor even attempted any three point shots
• Although both of their skill sets were slightly different, they were both basically players who scored inside with power, and didn't stray out of the paint

So in light of all of the above, yes, SWC -- both Arinze and Rick playing in tandem clogged the lane, by definition.

That was also a team that -- prior to Arinze's injury -- had perfect balance and chemistry. It was the best passing team we've had since Sherman Douglas ran the point, and the interior passing was fantastic. Them playing together wasn't a massive liability, but it occurred in limited doses because our best lineup featured both Wes / Kris at forward along with one -- not both -- of the bigs. Both of those things can simultaneously be true at the same time.

But those two playing together as "twin towers" was a limited use case that occurred at the beginning of halves, with more than 50% of their respective PT being when the other player wasn't on the floor.

So let's dispense with misconstrued, fallacy interpretations that we weren't good that year, or that they didn't start most games together [Arinze missed a few due to injury], or that they were completely incompatible, or that there weren't some gorgeous touch passes inside between Arinze / Rick for easy scores -- because none of that is relevant to what's being discussed, and none of that is what I'm saying. But yes, two low post players who can't score outside the shadow of the basket clog the lane. That was true 13 years ago, and it's even more true in contemporary basketball, where bigs are expected to have more versatility than in days gone by.

Which is why Irt4su shouldn't let the nonsense I'm responding to above detract from the astute observation he made. Edwards and Brown are compatible, but some adjustments will need to be made so that we're not handcuffing Mintz's penetration.

Why?

Because two bigs who are chained to the paint clog the lane, if neither of them can step out and face up. Jesse and Brown can't do that, and neither could Rick / Arinze 13 years ago.

That was our ‘Noah’s Ark’ team. We had two of everything-two point guards, multiple guys who could hit from outside, a couple guys who were god at slashing to the basket-and two ecellent inside scorers who worked well together. I’ll concede that the slashing game would have been muted with both big guys in there but they started together because they were so effective together. Our guards had to targets to get the ball inside and they could pass the ball back and forth, the was Jesse and Malig have been doing.

When Arinze went down, we were reduced to just one inside scorer. We wanted to exploit a percieved weakness inside vs. Butler but the played the passing lane to Rick well and we had something like 8 turnovers trying to get the ball to him and fell behind. We then went away from that and rallied but came up short in the end. Butler went on to lose to Duke when a buzzer shot by Heyward rimmed out. I’ve always thought with Arinze we win the Butler game because they can’t cover both options and then we go on to win it all.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Correct -- and that someone is you. So let me present to you the actual facts, which even you won't be able to rationalize away -- even though I'm sure you'll try.

Arinze and Rick were fantastic college players -- outstanding despite their limitations -- but the notion that they played extensive minutes together is false.

• Rick averaged ~26 MPG
• Arinze averaged ~23 MPG
• Coach Boeheim started them together at the beginning of halves, then would quickly rotate one out because:
  • Boeheim preferred to play a versatile pair of combo forward in Wes / Kris over the big man tandem, because that was our best scoring / most dangerous lineup
  • Kris Joseph averaged more minutes than both of those players
  • Kris was also the 6th man of the year, according to one publication
  • Whichever big rotated out would be based upon a variety of factors, including:
    • Fouls
    • Matchups
    • Whoever happened to be playing better at that given time in any given game
• More than 50% of Rick's time in 2009-2010 came playing center, not PF where he started -- this analysis has been validated many times over the years, when this question comes up
• Neither Rick nor Arinze could make any shots outside of the shadow of the basket
• Neither Rick nor Arinze made nor even attempted any three point shots
• Although both of their skill sets were slightly different, they were both basically players who scored inside with power, and didn't stray out of the paint

So in light of all of the above, yes, SWC -- both Arinze and Rick playing in tandem clogged the lane, by definition.

That was also a team that -- prior to Arinze's injury -- had perfect balance and chemistry. It was the best passing team we've had since Sherman Douglas ran the point, and the interior passing was fantastic. Them playing together wasn't a massive liability, but it occurred in limited doses because our best lineup featured both Wes / Kris at forward along with one -- not both -- of the bigs. Both of those things can simultaneously be true at the same time.

But those two playing together as "twin towers" was a limited use case that occurred at the beginning of halves, with more than 50% of their respective PT being when the other player wasn't on the floor.

So let's dispense with misconstrued, fallacy interpretations that we weren't good that year, or that they didn't start most games together [Arinze missed a few due to injury], or that they were completely incompatible, or that there weren't some gorgeous touch passes inside between Arinze / Rick for easy scores -- because none of that is relevant to what's being discussed, and none of that is what I'm saying. But yes, two low post players who can't score outside the shadow of the basket clog the lane. That was true 13 years ago, and it's even more true in contemporary basketball, where bigs are expected to have more versatility than in days gone by.

Which is why Irt4su shouldn't let the nonsense I'm responding to above detract from the astute observation he made. Edwards and Brown are compatible, but some adjustments will need to be made so that we're not handcuffing Mintz's penetration.

Why?

Because two bigs who are chained to the paint clog the lane, if neither of them can step out and face up. Jesse and Brown can't do that, and neither could Rick / Arinze 13 years ago.

Yes they both rotated in and out throughout the game each playing a little over a half a game. Arinze, who was actually hurt all year before his season ending injury actually averaged 5 minutes less per game, than non starter, Kris Joseph. That team was so diverse and so talented with players who had so many different strengths. Only 2 players averaged over 28 minutes a game. There were 4 players who shot more than .400 from 3. Andy, Wes, Scoop and Brandon, very good 3 point shooters who could handle the ball and also drive to the basket. They would spread the court where defenses couldn’t afford to double or sag inside on Arinze, Rick without being punished from outside. Kris Joseph wasn’t a great 3 point shooter but was very athletic, could drive to the basket, rebound and stop and pop for midrange baskets. All 7 regular rotation players that year shot more than .520(Scoop) from inside the arc. Amazing team.

 

[RF2044]

They really didn’t play that much together - they both averaged slightly over a half a game (around 22 to 26 minutes each)

Yup.

And the math here is easy. Arinze played 100% of his minutes at center -- averaging ~23 per game. Rick averaged ~26 per game [as you list].

There are 40 minutes available per game, per position. Ergo, 17 out of Rick's 23 minutes per game were at center, leaving 6 divided over both halves where he played power forward [or about 3 minutes per half, which were almost entirely at the beginnings of halves.

 

[RF2044]

That was our ‘Noah’s Ark’ team. We had two of everything-two point guards, multiple guys who could hit from outside, a couple guys who were god at slashing to the basket-and two ecellent inside scorers who worked well together. I’ll concede that the slashing game would have been muted with both big guys in there but they started together because they were so effective together. Our guards had to targets to get the ball inside and they could pass the ball back and forth, the was Jesse and Malig have been doing.

When Arinze went down, we were reduced to just one inside scorer. We wanted to exploit a percieved weakness inside vs. Butler but the played the passing lane to Rick well and we had something like 8 turnovers trying to get the ball to him and fell behind. We then went away from that and rallied but came up short in the end. Butler went on to lose to Duke when a buzzer shot by Heyward rimmed out. I’ve always thought with Arinze we win the Butler game because they can’t cover both options and then we go on to win it all.

There is nothing in your post above that I disagree with.

 

[Millhouse]

That was our ‘Noah’s Ark’ team. We had two of everything-two point guards, multiple guys who could hit from outside, a couple guys who were god at slashing to the basket-and two ecellent inside scorers who worked well together. I’ll concede that the slashing game would have been muted with both big guys in there but they started together because they were so effective together. Our guards had to targets to get the ball inside and they could pass the ball back and forth, the was Jesse and Malig have been doing.

When Arinze went down, we were reduced to just one inside scorer. We wanted to exploit a percieved weakness inside vs. Butler but the played the passing lane to Rick well and we had something like 8 turnovers trying to get the ball to him and fell behind. We then went away from that and rallied but came up short in the end. Butler went on to lose to Duke when a buzzer shot by Heyward rimmed out. I’ve always thought with Arinze we win the Butler game because they can’t cover both options and then we go on to win it all.

You have this thing about two running backs and now two centers. There is only one ball and you want defenses to have to cover a little of ground. AO and RF didn't play together. Jackson had to play too many minutes and he came up small.