Prospective depth chart for '16-'17 Syracuse Orange

[orangenirvana]

If the lineup is:

Gillon
Battle
Lydon
Roberson
DC

Then White would be the first guy off the bench who would go in for either Lydon or Roberson. Lydon slips to the 4 or White just plays the 3. If Lydon stays as the sixth man then he's the first off the bench. I doubt that happens but JB has done similar things when the better player comes off the bench. Southerland, Waiters, etc etc.

Not sure who the last senior JB has coached that lost his starting spot, especially a starter who is quite good.

I could see that starting 5 but I really doubt White (one of the best three-point shooters in college basketball) has been sold on the idea that he'll be coming off the bench. And I don't think pissing him off before conference play starts is the best way to build chemistry on a team with so many new parts.

I'm on record saying there's no way Lydon comes off the bench unless he spent the entire offseason fishing in Central PA or something.

 

[Dave85]

I could see that starting 5 but I really doubt White (one of the best three-point shooters in college basketball) has been sold on the idea that he'll be coming off the bench. And I don't think pissing him off before conference play starts is the best way to build chemistry on a team with so many new parts.

I'm on record saying there's no way Lydon comes off the bench unless he spent the entire offseason fishing in Central PA or something.

Fishing in Central PA does very bad things to people.

 

[RF2044]

I could see that starting 5 but I really doubt White (one of the best three-point shooters in college basketball) has been sold on the idea that he'll be coming off the bench. And I don't think pissing him off before conference play starts is the best way to build chemistry on a team with so many new parts.

I'm on record saying there's no way Lydon comes off the bench unless he spent the entire offseason fishing in Central PA or something.

I tend to agree with Lydon. The only [grasping at straws here] rationale for him coming off the bench would be because he has proven that he can do that and still contribute at a high major level, whereas others [Roberson, etc.] have not. That would give us a ton of major league scoring pop off of the bench.

But it is hard to envision Lydon not starting. Roberson's rebounding is incredibly valuable, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him have one of those kick it up a notch senior years. But Lydon is the all around better player, and I'm convinced White starts at 3, so...

 

[orangenirvana]

1. Gillon
2. White
3. Lydon
4. Roberson
5. Coleman

Here's my thinking. White will start at the 2 but will only play a few minutes there. He will be happy and then Battle will come in like Dion Waiters and MCW used to do. Lydon will swing over to the 4 and White will drop to the 3.

I just can't see White playing the 2 on defense. Even if just for the first few minutes (I don't see Boeheim playing games to that extent). He's too slow. Opposing backcourts would kill us.

 

[Dave85]

I tend to agree with Lydon. The only [grasping at straws here] rationale for him coming off the bench would be because he has proven that he can do that and still contribute at a high major level, whereas others [Roberson, etc.] have not. That would give us a ton of major league scoring pop off of the bench.

But it is hard to envision Lydon not starting. Roberson's rebounding is incredibly valuable, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him have one of those kick it up a notch senior years. But Lydon is the all around better player, and I'm convinced White starts at 3, so...

If you start White at 3, then who do you start at the 4 and 5?

 

[Dave85]

I just can't see White playing the 2 on defense. Even if just for the first few minutes (I don't see Boeheim playing games to that extent). He's too slow. Opposing backcourts would kill us.

Yeah, you are probably right. But in his mind White thinks he's a 2. At least JB will provide him the evidence one way or the other. I think it will make him happy at least to hear his name as a starter. JB tends to start the most senior players and bring in an explosive 6th man off the bench.

 

[RF2044]

I just can't see White playing the 2 on defense. Even if just for the first few minutes (I don't see Boeheim playing games to that extent). He's too slow. Opposing backcourts would kill us.

Agreed. I know that people are enamored with a huge lineup up top on the zone, but here's an easy way to look at it:

Battle isn't the best point guard on the team. He's a combo who would be the third best option there. Doesn't mean that he can't play 1 or fill in there situationally, but there are two better options at lead guard.

White isn't the best option at shooting guard, Battle is. White can definitely give us some minutes at 2 in a pinch, depending on matchups, but it is not an ideal defensive situation with him playing up top--much better suited for the back line, with his rebounding and lack of handle / creation of the bounce / passing.

White is the best option at small forward. Lydon could play some there, but he isn't a natural 3. Moyer could play some there, but he isn't a natural 3.

Ergo...

 

[RF2044]

If you start White at 3, then who do you start at the 4 and 5?

It is a really tough call. I think who CLOSES games will come down to matchups, to be honest with you.

There are some games where Coleman might be a matchup problem, so he'll play more at 5. There will be some games where we might want Chukwu in there with four scorers. And there might be games where we go all offense, and Lydon plays the 5.

I think our most potent scoring lineup would be Gillon, Battle, White, Roberson, and Lydon.

But worst case scenario--it is GREAT to have different options. This team has no shortage of them, with lots of player affording multi-position versatility.

In terms of who starts, I wouldn't be surprised to see Roberson / Coleman at 4 and 5, respectively. But Coleman figures to have a short leash; there are lots of guys who can fill in this season in the pivot, whereas there weren't last year.

In 2012, we had 9 capable players. I expect to see a lot of the same this year, on a roster where legitimately 10 guys could contribute. Please note that doesn't mean that we'll use a 10 player rotation every game, but we COULD. That's a far cry from Coleman / Lydon in the middle with fingers crossed. This year, our FOURTH center could be Taurean Thompson??? Our fourth power forward could be Mathew Moyer? Welcome change.

Both practices and games figure to be competitive as hell for PT. And that's a great problem to have. It also means we aren't locked into key players if someone happens to be having an "off" game any given night. If Roberson doesn't bring it some random game, then maybe he only plays 12 minutes some game, with others getting the bulk of minutes at his expense [for example]. Ditto Coleman, Chukwu, and every other position. Last year, we were locked into our principals having to play, due to lack of depth.

 

[Dave85]

I think our most potent scoring lineup would be Gillon, Battle, White, Roberson, and Lydon.

That would be a fun one to watch!

 

[OttoMets]

Considering the level of player proficiency Boeheim will have available and his 8-man rotation system, I just don't think Coleman is good enough quite frankly. That might change if he's truly 100% in November and maintains that health and is a completely different player but I think the chances of all that are extremely low.

So at this point I see Lydon moving over to Center when Roberson comes in for Chukwu. But I think it's possible that Thompson could be better than advertised and be the backup 5 while Moyer is the odd man out. And if Coleman is improved enough to remain in the rotation then he'll start and both Thompson and Moyer will be on the bench (if that's the case, then good luck with Mrs. Thompson, Coach).

I agree with all of this, but it's difficult for me to imagine Boeheim casting a senior aside, unless there's a character problem. That doesn't apply here, and Coleman's got the bonus of being a local kid with an interesting back-story (McDonald's guy from Boeheim's kids' high school with a few serious injuries who's a very hard worker). Also, I doubt Chukwu's going to be as productive as some think. Not, at least, right off the bat. So I'd pencil a healthy Coleman in for 31+ starts. Playing time, after that, will be up in the air.

I also agree with everyone who thinks Lydon will play a good percentage of time at center. It's not my favorite move (he's adequate at that position but will be outmanned by a number of conference opponents, just like last year), but it's all about Boeheim's comfort. Lydon's a safety blanket this year, maybe our most reliable veteran? (Crazy thought, for a sophomore.) Wouldn't be shocked if he doesn't start, but he'll play 36 minutes at every position where Boeheim's unhappy with the starter's production, and he'll close every game.

 

[Cusefan0307]

The two things I'm most confident in is Coleman starting and Lydon getting the most minutes. Coleman will play as long as he produces.

 

[OttoMets]

I tend to agree with Lydon. The only [grasping at straws here] rationale for him coming off the bench would be because he has proven that he can do that and still contribute at a high major level, whereas others [Roberson, etc.] have not. That would give us a ton of major league scoring pop off of the bench.

But it is hard to envision Lydon not starting. Roberson's rebounding is incredibly valuable, and I wouldn't be at all surprised to see him have one of those kick it up a notch senior years. But Lydon is the all around better player, and I'm convinced White starts at 3, so...

I do think Lydon will be the sixth man (note: only what I think, not what I've heard from anyone in the know) for just that reason. He's demonstrated that he's capable off the bench and -- again, speculation but something I haven't seen mentioned -- he'd really benefit coming in as a second-wave player; he's already facing a step up this year in terms of being a go-to guy and commanding the opponent's defensive attention, so bringing him off the bench could ease the transition by giving him more minutes against either a tired defender or a second-string defender. They trust him to perform as an instant-offense utility guy.

Roberson's one of those kids who responds not to berating and challenging but to positivity - he thrives in situations where he's got confidence. That's most likely to come when he's starting and I assume that someone recognizes it after three uneven years.

It's difficult to imagine a fifth-year transfer coming here to come off the bench, so those two kids are penciled in to the starting lineup. That leaves Lydon as the odd man out which, as I see it, could be an attractive thing for the coaches.

 

[orangenirvana]

Yeah, you are probably right. But in his mind White thinks he's a 2. At least JB will provide him the evidence one way or the other. I think it will make him happy at least to hear his name as a starter. JB tends to start the most senior players and bring in an explosive 6th man off the bench.

I'm sure it's been explained to White that on offense he will have a role similar to a 2 guard. And Richardson played the entire season at the "Syracuse 3" and was just drafted in the first round as an NBA shooting guard.

 

[jordoo]

Lydon is the one guy that you basically cannot make any sort of legit argument for not starting IMO. He's simply much better than any other options we have at the 4 and 5 position while having a well rounded game with no glaring holes in it.

I also have a very hard time picturing Battle, Gillon, White not starting.

Its a great problem to have trying to figure out which 5 of your 7 starters actually start.

 

[LAOrange]

Good post. Lydon can play center -- he played there for much of our run to the final 4, and he is stronger entering this season. The question is more whether PC is an even better option, so Lydon can swing between SF and PF.
As to whether we are a "superb" outside shooting team per the OP -- that depends entirely on whether White decides to come. Otherwise, below average in outside shooting, but likely to better than last season with fast-breaks and inside play..

I think Lydon plays center when we run... when Gillon's in the game.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I think Lydon plays center when we run... when Gillon's in the game.

Not sure it will happen much, but if you really wanted to play small ball, you put Lydon at the 5 and play the 4 guards.

 

[orangenirvana]

I agree with all of this, but it's difficult for me to imagine Boeheim casting a senior aside, unless there's a character problem. That doesn't apply here, and Coleman's got the bonus of being a local kid with an interesting back-story (McDonald's guy from Boeheim's kids' high school with a few serious injuries who's a very hard worker). Also, I doubt Chukwu's going to be as productive as some think. Not, at least, right off the bat. So I'd pencil a healthy Coleman in for 31+ starts. Playing time, after that, will be up in the air.

I absolutely think Chukwu will be as productive on defense if not more so than people think. And considering Boeheim only has a few more years left to capture a second title, I don't think he's going to play players who aren't the best regardless of where they're from or how nice they are.

 

[tee1222]

I think Lydon plays center when we run... when Gillon's in the game.

Rico and the Frog. Together at last.

 

[reedny]

I do not see the connection you are making. A turnover is a turnover. I think steals lead to run-outs. I like the shorter shot clock. I think that helps our 2-3 defense.

SCV is a dead ball, side out I think. A TO is live .. makes it easier to run.

 

[jordoo]

Not sure it will happen much, but if you really wanted to play small ball, you put Lydon at the 5 and play the 4 guards.

That is an intriguing lineup. Howard, Gillon, Battle, White, Lydon. 6-4, 6-0, 6-6, 6-7, 6-9 that's probably as big if not bigger than Nova's NC lineup last year. I know we likely won't see it but putting the ball in Howard's hands surrounded buy shooters/slashers/drivers would be pretty hard to defend especially if they pushed on every miss which wouldn't be that hard to do with all those ball handlers.

 

[RF2044]

I'm sure it's been explained to White that on offense he will have a role similar to a 2 guard. And Richardson played the entire season at the "Syracuse 3" and was just drafted in the first round as an NBA shooting guard.

Difference being that Richardson projected as an NBA 2, with a dribble drive game, and was forced to play out of position at the 3 for us because that was what was best for the team. Not sure that White has a guard's game, despite being 6-7.

 

[jordoo]

Difference being that Richardson projected as an NBA 2, with a dribble drive game, and was forced to play out of position at the 3 for us because that was what was best for the team. Not sure that White has a guard's game, despite being 6-7.

I don't see White's NBA chances as being very good no matter where he plays. He has one really excellent skill but is limited in other aspects for his size/position at the NBA level while also seemingly lacking the requisite quickness and speed for an NBA 2 or 3. Still he can shoot and perhaps could get someone to take a flyer on him middle to late 2nd round but that would likely be his ceiling in the draft IMO.

 

[orangenirvana]

Roberson's one of those kids who responds not to berating and challenging but to positivity - he thrives in situations where he's got confidence. That's most likely to come when he's starting and I assume that someone recognizes it after three uneven years.

It's difficult to imagine a fifth-year transfer coming here to come off the bench, so those two kids are penciled in to the starting lineup. That leaves Lydon as the odd man out which, as I see it, could be an attractive thing for the coaches.

"Sorry, Tyler. Even though you're projected to be a lottery pick, you're the odd man out because Roberson is too sensitive to handle being the sixth man."

I don't think many on this forum give Roberson enough credit. He has good enough character to handle a slight "demotion" (if that's what we want to call it). And maybe he'll even thrive with less pressure of starting games and having a sixth-man role where he can come in and dominate the boards.

Lydon starts, regardless of what happens.

 

[OttoMets]

I absolutely think Chukwu will be as productive on defense if not more so than people think. And considering Boeheim only has a few more years left to capture a second title, I don't think he's going to play players who aren't the best regardless of where they're from or how nice they are.

Now I agree with that logic, too - that's why he's assembled this motley crew in an uncharacteristic fashion. He wants to win this year. He's not building for anything.

But Boeheim's got a long history of giving token starts, even with this kid (has Coleman ever been clearly better than the guy who backed him up?). He's a loyal guy (and pragmatic, too - Coleman's on the roster, he's going to get some minutes, and he's not the type to be productive off the bench).

Chukwu's got great potential and I anticipate him playing the bulk of the minutes at center, but I'd like to see him command his position and communicate with his teammates on defense in a game situation before counting on him for real production. Glad he had a good practice year, but he's still facing a steep learning curve (we can all envision what will happen the first time -- and second and third -- he hesitates rather than extend on a shooter or collapse on a cutter). He's taking on the most difficult job on the team and it'll be awhile before he gets good at it.

 

[OttoMets]

"Sorry, Tyler. Even though you're projected to be a lottery pick, you're the odd man out because Roberson is too sensitive to handle being the sixth man."

I don't think many on this forum give Roberson enough credit. He has good enough character to handle a slight "demotion" (if that's what we want to call it). And maybe he'll even thrive with less pressure of starting games and having a sixth-man role where he can come in and dominate the boards.

Lydon starts, regardless of what happens.

We'll disagree on this one, and no one's going to enjoy being right until November.

But mine isn't a character judgment, anyway. Different kids are wired differently, different kids have different situation skill sets, it's been clear with Roberson since his first year (when he could've filled a role but missed the summer experience due to a delayed enrollment). He's a starter who will struggle to produce off the bench. He might struggle to produce in his starts, too, and that's when he'd be replaced by someone who is productive in a non-starting role.