PSU: About football or not?

[007]

Personally, that's why in my zeal to call for a PSU self-imposed death penalty I keep saying that if SU were to have a problem of similar scope I'd advocate the same thing. Thing is, that seems unlikely, the Fine situation looks like it was something entirely different than the Sandusky monstrosity.

Although I tend to agree Scooch, and I sincerely hope that the Fine accusations are unfounded, IF Fine is guilty of being a pedophile (I am not saying that he is or isn't), this will not be as "entirely different" from the Sandusky monstrosity as some here would like to believe. The degree of the cover up, number of children involved, and complicity will certainly be different. But, the lack of institutional control from the NCAA perspective will look a little too familiar.

Glass house...

 

[billsin01]

If a coach of the swim team was caught doing this, it would have ended in 1998.

But what if the head coach just wasn't sure what to do with the allegations and didn't want to ruin everyone's weekend?

 

[billsin01]

Personally, that's why in my zeal to call for a PSU self-imposed death penalty I keep saying that if SU were to have a problem of similar scope I'd advocate the same thing. Thing is, that seems unlikely, the Fine situation looks like it was something entirely different than the Sandusky monstrosity.

Agreed -- comparing the two is utterly absurd. BUT, like you said, if they were analogous I would have zero problem with whatever the school/NCAA/authorities decided to do. People seem to be forgetting that this is decades worth of essentially sanctioned abuse. we're not talking about recruiting bad seeds, or a person doing something under the radar forever, or recruiting violations, or parties or fights or athletes being entitled morons ... it's essentially unprecedented.

 

[rrlbees]

Although I tend to agree Scooch, and I sincerely hope that the Fine accusations are unfounded, IF Fine is guilty of being a pedophile (I am not saying that he is or isn't), this will not be as "entirely different" from the Sandusky monstrosity as some here would like to believe. The degree of the cover up, number of children involved, and complicity will certainly be different. But, the lack of institutional control from the NCAA perspective will look a little too familiar.

Glass house...

No comparison.

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[orange79]

Since it was the administration that appears to have spearheaded the cover up (obv along with JoePa), I say they are allowed to continue football, but they kicked out of their precious CIC.

 

[kingtidge]

Personally, that's why in my zeal to call for a PSU self-imposed death penalty I keep saying that if SU were to have a problem of similar scope I'd advocate the same thing. Thing is, that seems unlikely, the Fine situation looks like it was something entirely different than the Sandusky monstrosity.

It should be the death penalty... the Thompson Rd. billboard should be ressurected as well:

 

[Capt. Tuttle]

The NCAA has already punished a school, at least in part, for actions taken by a staff to cover up a crime. It happened at Baylor. They specifically pointed to the lack of ethics. To be sure, there were traditional NCAA violations found, just as some are sure to be found at PSU, IF the NCAA wants to look.

People who say the inevitable payments to these young men is punishment are idiots. That is restitution for the offenses against them, designed to make them whole. That is what PSU owes them for its actions. It's like they robbed the kids of $500.00. They have to pay that back (restitution to make the kid whole), then go to jail for punishment for the act. It is what is inflicted upon them by a third, supervising party, that is the punishment, not the restitution.

 

[longtimefan]

Too big to fail. See Fannie Mae.

Or AIG.

 

[rrlbees]

The NCAA has already punished a school, at least in part, for actions taken by a staff to cover up a crime. It happened at Baylor. They specifically pointed to the lack of ethics. To be sure, there were traditional NCAA violations found, just as some are sure to be found at PSU, IF the NCAA wants to look.

People who say the inevitable payments to these young men is punishment are idiots. That is restitution for the offenses against them, designed to make them whole. That is what PSU owes them for its actions. It's like they robbed the kids of $500.00. They have to pay that back (restitution to make the kid whole), then go to jail for punishment for the act. It is what is inflicted upon them by a third, supervising party, that is the punishment, not the restitution.

There was one PedSt fan who said these abused kids just won the lottery and they should just take their ticket to PedSt and cash it in and then move on. Aholes.

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[CaliCuse]

There was one PedSt fan who said these abused kids just won the lottery and they should just take their ticket to PedSt and cash it in and then move on. Aholes.

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Anyone who said that just proved, they know nothing about anything much less what happened in this matter. Lets hope they don't reproduce; Pity the children.

 

[ithacat]

Penn St & its football program had nothing to do with Sandusky's crimes until becoming actively involved with a coverup. At that point it was only about the football program and nothing else. What reason is there for a coverup if not to avoid the loss of revenue, prestige, and thus protect a de facto competitive advantage. If this does not fall within the realm of NCAA enforcement then the organization is worthless.

 

[SarasotaPaul]

We are pretty split here even as a board.. I think this was not about football and is more criminal in nature and no football sanctions should be levied. I don't think it's a black and white issue, hence the disparity in opinions.

Fact of the matter is that it is both. The coverup agents need criminal action taken against them and the "school" needs sanctions due to the fact the criminal offenses were perpetrated to protect the image of the "cleanest program in the whole universe" manure they have spread for so long.

 

[CaliCuse]

Fact of the matter is that it is both. The coverup agents need criminal action taken against them and the "school" needs sanctions due to the fact the criminal offenses were perpetrated to protect the image of the "cleanest program in the whole universe" manure they have spread for so long.

The decision to cover this up was indeed about football They didn't want ANYTHING to tarnish the image that Penn State had been painting since Joe Paterno was anointed to sainthood. They tried but the truth came out later but not with high officials did their best to cover this up. They should be indicted as coconspirators. Prison would serve them right . Cons don't like child crimes for the most part. Good luck Sandusky. You isn't going to die of old age. I hope its a broom handle up your ass until it pops out your throat. Sounds about right . animediate prdon for the con who gets it done:bat:

 

[KosonWarrior]

A school, their football program and their leaders placed football and their Penn State Brand above protecting kids from being raped by one of their coaches. How anyone can think that this doesn't deserve shutting down the program is beyond me. The school board should do it on their own if they are truly concerned about preventing this from ever happening again. If not, the NCAA should do it for them. Period.

 

[tipphill]

Personally, that's why in my zeal to call for a PSU self-imposed death penalty I keep saying that if SU were to have a problem of similar scope I'd advocate the same thing. Thing is, that seems unlikely, the Fine situation looks like it was something entirely different than the Sandusky monstrosity.

in scale perhaps,to much is yet unknown.

 

[Louie&Bouie]

Of course it was/is about football. Any individuals arguing to the contrary are delusional...

14 years of ignoring the abuse of children on campus, in the football buildings, at away games, and at bowl games. FOURTEEN years, people.

I am so sick of hearing/reading alums, former players, and supporters of that program defend the "Paterno Way", the "Penn State Way", or using the term "Success With Honor".

This is a program that a 2010 SI article ranked 4th in the country in the number of players on the roster with criminal records (16 total--18.8%).

This is a program that ESPN's OTL investigated in 2008. From 2002-2008 46 players were charged with 163 different counts. 27 pled guilty to 45 total crimes.

Spare me. People within that university, program, and community have been looking the other way for decades, on many different fronts.

 

[Townie72]

So the idea is that the NCAA start to punish schools based on the crimes committed by coaches and the failure of coaches to report criminal behavior of others --- coaches and non-coaches --- to authorities?

That's what is being suggested here

How far down does this extend? Just felonies? Misdemeanors? Traffic offenses?

If a coach has abuses pain killers, is the program punished? What about the coaches that fail to report their fellow coaches for this illegal behavior? How should the NCAA be involved in this?

If one of the coaches is caught screwing another coach's wife ... clearly a moral failing ... does the NCAA sanction the school.

Penn State's recruiting advantage gained by not reporting this is a real stretch.

 

[OrangePA]

The media seems to be splitting on the sanctions issue.
Some say it's not about the football, but rather the illegalities and unethical steps taken by university administrators. That the guilt, shame, and legal and civil penalties will be severe, hence no sanctions should be levied.

Others say the whole affair was ALL about BCS-level football, in general and at PSU----a culture that fosters covering up, fear of reporting, and thrying to avert bad publicity because of how it might affect recruiting or the legacies of iconic football coaches---and hence there needs to be the heaviest of NCAA sanctions. They feel it's necessary for a bold NCAA intervention/stroke/message that will truly rein in the growing autonomy, power, mischief, and self-interest within the BCS football system and culture.

As for me, I'm saying it was all about football, and that a death penalty for 3-5 years is in order---as long as the NCAA takes all steps to allow for easy transfers and immediate play time for current players at their new schools.

Here is how I look at it.

If it had been an assistant BB coach who walked in on Sandusky, would people be calling for the BB program at PSU to be given the death penalty?

By 2001 Sandusky was no longer a football coach. His actions at that time had nothing to do with the FB program. His actions in the shower that day were the result of the Athletic Department and Administration allowing him access to the athletic facilities.

The fact that the guy was once a football coach should not have bearing upon the imposition of penalties against the FB program as opposed to the BB program or the lacrosse program.

 

[Consigliere]

Penn State's recruiting advantage gained by not reporting this is a real stretch.[/quote]

A stretch?! So if you were a prospective D 1 recruit in 2001 and you knew Penn State enabled a serial pedophile, allowed him to bring his victims on campus and into the football facilities and that the current administration actively covered up his crimes, you'd even open a letter from PSU?

Again, recruiting advantages come not only from perceived positives but also from concealing perceived negatives.

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[rrlbees]

Here is how I look at it.

If it had been an assistant BB coach who walked in on Sandusky, would people be calling for the BB program at PSU to be given the death penalty?

By 2001 Sandusky was no longer a football coach. His actions at that time had nothing to do with the FB program. His actions in the shower that day were the result of the Athletic Department and Administration allowing him access to the athletic facilities.

The fact that the guy was once a football coach should not have bearing upon the imposition of penalties against the FB program as opposed to the BB program or the lacrosse program.

Except that even after he was no longer a coach, he still raped kids in football facilities that Paterno, yes Paterno, allowed him access to. He raped kids while on trips to football bowl games. To gain admiration of kids, he brought them to football practices, which Paterno allowed. He sat im the Presidents box for football games, even after the investigation had started and the GJ convened.

See how many times the word football gets in there?

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[rrlbees]

So the idea is that the NCAA start to punish schools based on the crimes committed by coaches and the failure of coaches to report criminal behavior of others --- coaches and non-coaches --- to authorities?

That's what is being suggested here

How far down does this extend? Just felonies? Misdemeanors? Traffic offenses?

If a coach has abuses pain killers, is the program punished? What about the coaches that fail to report their fellow coaches for this illegal behavior? How should the NCAA be involved in this?

If one of the coaches is caught screwing another coach's wife ... clearly a moral failing ... does the NCAA sanction the school.

Penn State's recruiting advantage gained by not reporting this is a real stretch.

Institution
Systemic
2 decades
Ethics


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[Louie&Bouie]

Here is how I look at it.

If it had been an assistant BB coach who walked in on Sandusky, would people be calling for the BB program at PSU to be given the death penalty?

If an assistant football coach had reported a child being violated by the associate head coach of men's basketball, it would have been reported, resolved, and prosecuted immediately.

 

[OrangePA]

Except that even after he was no longer a coach, he still raped kids in football facilities that Paterno, yes Paterno, allowed him access to. He raped kids while on trips to football bowl games. To gain admiration of kids, he brought them to football practices, which Paterno allowed. He sat im the Presidents box for football games, even after the investigation had started and the GJ convened.

See how many times the word football gets in there?

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So a football program that allows alums to attend practice or to use the weight room should be penalized when that alum commits a crime that does not involve a football player or coach or administrator?

I know that viscerally your position feels right, but when you think it through completely, one has to conclude that by 2001 this was really not a football program matter. It was a campus/administration matter. I don't think the FB program can or should be singled out by the NCAA.

Recall that Sandusky was not convicted of a crime for whatever McQuerry saw that day in the football facility 2001. I think some of his P e d o p h I l I aoccured at a high school if I recall correctly. Should the administrators at that school be punished.

Should Sandusky's wife be punished given that many of the attacks occurred in her home?

I think you have to be careful when you start calling for others to be punished.

 

[OrangePA]

If an assistant football coach had reported a child being violated by the associate head coach of men's basketball, it would have been reported, resolved, and prosecuted immediately.

Your hypo has nothing to do with what I have posted.

I am dealing with Jerry Sandusky, who in 2001 had no relationship with the Penn State Football Program - he was not an assistant coach, much less the associate head coach.

And, my point deals with NCAA punishment after the fact.

So, I'm not really sure what point you're trying make with respect to NCAA punishment.

But, lets deal with your hypo. If the associate men's BB coach were caught molesting a child and no action was taken, would the Penn State Football program be subject to punishment?

I would be interested in your answer.

 

[Louie&Bouie]

So a football program that allows alums to attend practice or to use the weight room should be penalized when that alum commits a crime that does not involve a football player or coach?

Should Sandusky's wife be punished given that many of the attacks occurred in her home?

Did the program cover up the crime? If so, then yes.

Did Dottie Sandusky cover up the crime? If so, then yes.