Re: ND to the ACC and Catholics in the SE

[Townie72]

Relative to ND joining the ACC because the school wants to be close to a burgeoning Catholic population.

The facts in this 2012 survey quite clearly disprove that. Notre Dame may want to join the ACC, but it certainly won't be because there are a lot of Catholics there now or that the growth of the Catholic population will make it a significant proportion of the people in these states or of the total Catholic population.

http://www.rcms2010.org/press_release/ACP 20120501.pdf

In the vast majority of the South, Catholics represent less than 2.2% of the population. The exceptions to this are South Louisiana and to a lesser degree, South Florida. (Slide 28)

About 20% of Catholics live in the Southeast. Many of these in South Louisiana and to a lesser degree in South Florida.

There are about 2 ½ times the Catholics in the East and Midwest as there are in the Southeast. (20% vs. 50%) (Slide 29)

Although the number of Catholics in the Southeast is growing, it would take decades to get to the number of them that are in the Eastern and Midwestern States. And the growth in the Catholic population in the Southeast could easily slow.

 

[tipphill]

interesting stats---but i believe that notre dame wants to be wherever the best payday is regardless of religious affiliation. however, having said that, i see them in the big 10, nevertheless being a big fish in a somewhat smaller pond(acc), may be attractive as well. also having said that, notre dame does not shy away from any competition. this is the ultimate fence sitting post i have ever written. i may have future in politics, as i have actually said nothing of value.

 

[xc84]

Relative to ND joining the ACC because the school wants to be close to a burgeoning Catholic population.

The facts in this 2012 survey quite clearly disprove that. Notre Dame may want to join the ACC, but it certainly won't be because there are a lot of Catholics there now or that the growth of the Catholic population will make it a significant proportion of the people in these states or of the total Catholic population.

http://www.rcms2010.org/press_release/ACP 20120501.pdf

In the vast majority of the South, Catholics represent less than 2.2% of the population. The exceptions to this are South Louisiana and to a lesser degree, South Florida. (Slide 28)

About 20% of Catholics live in the Southeast. Many of these in South Louisiana and to a lesser degree in South Florida.

There are about 2 ½ times the Catholics in the East and Midwest as there are in the Southeast. (20% vs. 50%) (Slide 29)

Although the number of Catholics in the Southeast is growing, it would take decades to get to the number of them that are in the Eastern and Midwestern States. And the growth in the Catholic population in the Southeast could easily slow.

First, I agree that ND will not be moving because of the population of Catholics in the South. However, I think the way you stated your figures in not accurate. You state "In the vast majority of the South, Catholics represent less than 2.2% of the population." That is not accurate. Alabama has the lowest population of Catholics in the US by % of population. It's 6%. FL has 26%, MD has 23%, and VA has 14%. Since Alabama is the lowest % at 6%, I don't think you can say that in the "vast majority" of southern states, Catholics represent less than 2.2% of the population. Maybe in many and even most counties that is true but Catholics are probably more likely to be in larger cities and so when you talk about an entire state, 2.2% is way to low.

 

[Townie72]

interesting stats---but i believe that notre dame wants to be wherever the best payday is regardless of religious affiliation. however, having said that, i see them in the big 10, nevertheless being a big fish in a somewhat smaller pond(acc), may be attractive as well. also having said that, notre dame does not shy away from any competition. this is the ultimate fence sitting post i have ever written. i may have future in politics, as i have actually said nothing of value.

Tipphill, As an SU fan, it would be better for SU if ND joined the ACC. So I like the idea.

But the argument for them doing that is very, very thin. About only the reason with any weight I can imagine is that many of the ACC schools are about the same size as ND and the Big 10 schools are generally monsters.

But as you correctly point out, ND has never shrunk from a challenge whether that be Michigan, Texas or SC.

For years, I have been reading posts on here about throwing ND out of the Big East. I have always thought that was one of the dumbest ideas on these forums (and there are plenty of others to choose from).

You do not want to create a situation on purpose that makes your competition stronger. Forcing ND into the arms of the Big Ten is doing exactly that. If ND isn't going to join the ACC, then the ACC's best strategy is to do what they can to keep them an Independent. Including giving them a home for the rest of their sports.

 

[CiceroSwamp]

interesting stats---but i believe that notre dame wants to be wherever the best payday is regardless of religious affiliation. however, having said that, i see them in the big 10, nevertheless being a big fish in a somewhat smaller pond(acc), may be attractive as well. also having said that, notre dame does not shy away from any competition. this is the ultimate fence sitting post i have ever written. i may have future in politics, as i have actually said nothing of value.

If (and its a big if) Notre Dame joins a conference I see the Big 10 as undesirable for them unless the prestige of Notre Dame has taken a big hit. Notre ame brands themselves as a national program so affiliating with schools in the midwest makes little sense. I would say ACC first and then maybe the Pac10

 

[Townie72]

First, I agree that ND will not be moving because of the population of Catholics in the South. However, I think the way you stated your figures in not accurate. You state "In the vast majority of the South, Catholics represent less than 2.2% of the population." That is not accurate. Alabama has the lowest population of Catholics in the US by % of population. It's 6%. FL has 26%, MD has 23%, and VA has 14%. Since Alabama is the lowest % at 6%, I don't think you can say that in the "vast majority" of southern states, Catholics represent less than 2.2% of the population. Maybe in many and even most counties that is true but Catholics are probably more likely to be in larger cities and so when you talk about an entire state, 2.2% is way to low.

Look at the map on page 28. Or better yet, look at the map on page 51.

Now tell me, which states have a lot of Catholics and which states have very few?

Now of the states that have very few, which ones have ACC schools in them?

I do know that Maryland has a lot of Catholics. It was, after all, "The Free State" and was one of the few that that welcomed them in the early days of the Republic.

 

[Townie72]

If (and its a big if) Notre Dame joins a conference I see the Big 10 as undesirable for them unless the prestige of Notre Dame has taken a big hit. Notre ame brands themselves as a national program so affiliating with schools in the midwest makes little sense. I would say ACC first and then maybe the Pac10

Are you really saying that Michigan, Northwestern, Wisconsin, Purdue, Penn State and Illinois lack academic prestige?

That swamp gas in Cicero must be clouding your vision.

 

[Bayside44]

Well the church is growing in the southeast, it isn't like it was 40 years ago. The Diocese of Arlington as you know Townie is booming. Anyway, the religion thing is neither here or there for ND, which is probably a step in the right direction.

 

[normaliswear]

Again, I don't expect ND to join anywhere anytime soon. But if they did it would be surprising, probably not shocking but surprising, if it wasn't the ACC. They have a better fit with all the private schools of the ACC and more importantly their alumni base is by far stronger in the east. They'd be competing for Mid-western kids against Ohio St in the B1G... ACC is a better fit in every way but Geography. But again, continued independence probably makes it a moot issue.

 

[CiceroSwamp]

Are you really saying that Michigan, Northwestern, Wisconsin, Purdue, Penn State and Illinois lack academic prestige?

That swamp gas in Cicero must be clouding your vision.

My primary point is ND wants more visibility on the East Coast not in cow country

 

[xc84]

Look at the map on page 28. Or better yet, look at the map on page 51.

Now tell me, which states have a lot of Catholics and which states have very few?

Now of the states that have very few, which ones have ACC schools in them?

I do know that Maryland has a lot of Catholics. It was, after all, "The Free State" and was one of the few that that welcomed them in the early days of the Republic.

The map does not the number of Catholics per state. For example, let's say NY had every county as 2.2% (or less) Catholic except NYC... but in NYC, it was 90%. I think, using your conjecture, you would say that NY is close to 2.2% Catholic...but since NY population is so heavily weighted to NYC, that would not be the case. You're certainly right, Southern stated have fewer Catholics. I didn't disagree with that. All I said is that your statement about the "vast majority of the South" having only 2.2% of Catholics is not accurate... because the lowest percentage of Catholics in the country is in Alabama...and they have 6%. As for what ACC states have a lot of Catholics: FL (26%), MD (23%), VA (14%), MA (44%), PA (53%), NC (10%), NY (37%). Lots of Catholics in those states. But again, that is not the main reason ND might go to the ACC.

 

[Townie72]

My primary point is ND wants more visibility on the East Coast not in cow country

Cicero . The Big Ten has tremendous visibility in the East. Just look at the northeastern TV market for the Big Ten. It's huge. Much bigger than the ACC's.

 

[tipphill]

i agree that nd will not be joining anyone, but if they do i prefer the acc for all sports only. 5-10 year commitment. no hybrid deals as we have seen in the end that really did not add any value. jimmy b said the same thing. the difference was the big east needed nd for football in order to survive. the rest of the conferences can survive w/o them. the sooner that is addressed on a national level, by not sched. them, the sooner they will heed the call. or not. whatever, as personally i don't watch their games, due to the arrogance.

 

[RoysRunts]

The Bible Belt is still the Bible Belt......

 

[All4SU]

ND already has strong visibility and "Catholic reach" in the Northeast and mid west. In the mid west because THEY are in the mid west. In the Northeast, because they have always played games in the Northeast, which will not change. I would think they would want to expand their representation into the Catholic growth markets.

McDonalds doesn't put another burger joint down the street from another McDonalds in a saturated market. They put it in the growth area.

 

[Guinness]

The Bible Belt is still the Bible Belt......

Yes and no. There are many protestant denominations that are still openly hostile to the catholic church. I have had people tell me that still hear the pope called the anti-christ regularly.

 

[Townie72]

ND already has strong visibility and "Catholic reach" in the Northeast and mid west. In the mid west because THEY are in the mid west. In the Northeast, because they have always played games in the Northeast, which will not change. I would think they would want to expand their representation into the Catholic growth markets.

McDonalds doesn't put another burger joint down the street from another McDonalds in a saturated market. They put it in the growth area.

Interesting theory. But this isn't the hamburger business.

The problem is that the growth of the Catholic population in the ACC States is very small and it this rate it will take 100 years to match the East and Midwest.

Armed with this data, I'd have to say the ND to the ACC argument isn't non-existent. But it is very weak.

Notre Dame is located in Indiana. It's traditional rivals are mostly in the Big Ten. The core of ND support is in Chicago. ND went all the way through the application process to the Big Ten including having its faculty vote overwhelmingly to join the Big Ten

 

[Townie72]

My primary point is ND wants more visibility on the East Coast not in cow country

Cicero, search as I might, I couldn't find a single cow in any of these pictures of the Midwest.

http://wikitravel.org/en/Chicago_skyline_guide

 

[Townie72]

Well the church is growing in the southeast, it isn't like it was 40 years ago. The Diocese of Arlington as you know Townie is booming. Anyway, the religion thing is neither here or there for ND, which is probably a step in the right direction.

I know you get this, but its not about being near Catholics for ND. Its about being near their fan base that just happens to be primarily Catholics.

I actually don't know much about the Diocese of Arlington. Although it doesn't surprise me given the large number of new arrivals that seem to be clustered there.

I don't know about 40 years ago in VA. Living in NW DC/lower Montgomery County sometimes feel like I am living in the Vatican. All I see is kids with jackets on that say "Gonzaga" or "Georgetown Prep" or "St Johns"

 

[xc84]

The problem is that the growth of the Catholic population in the ACC States is very small

That's just no true. An ACC without ND but with Pitt and SU, would have 18.7M Catholics in ACC states which would be 19.9% of the population in ACC states. An ACC with ND added would have 19.5M Catholics which is 19.4% of the population of ACC states. The current ACC without SU and Pitt has 8.6M people in ACC states which is 13% of the population in those states. I used USCBB figures to calculate these.

 

[Townie72]

That's just no true. An ACC without ND but with Pitt and SU, would have 18.7M Catholics in ACC states which would be 19.9% of the population in ACC states. An ACC with ND added would have 19.5M Catholics which is 19.4% of the population of ACC states. The current ACC without SU and Pitt has 8.6M people in ACC states which is 13% of the population in those states. I used USCBB figures to calculate these.

Here's the point. ND's non-alumni Catholic subway alumni are a big part of its fan base.

There aren't many Catholics in the Southeast and even though the growth rate is large, it'll take centuries to get to the same number that there are in the East and Midwest.

 

[xc84]

Here's the point. ND's non-alumni Catholic subway alumni are a big part of its fan base.

There aren't many Catholics in the Southeast

Currently, 8 million (13%) of the population in ACC states are Catholic. That's quite a few. With SU, ND, and Pitt, that percent is 19%. You and I can disagree about what "many" means I guess. It's not like the NE or MW. That does not change the fact that there are still a significant portion of the current and future ACC state population who do and identify themselves as Catholic. Here's an interesting thought though. We know ND has a huge following in many parts of the country due to their Catholic identity. For sure, this is true in the MW & NE. I wonder if that is true in the SW among SW Catholics. If not, this could prove to gain ND more Catholic fans than they would add if they went to e.g. the Big 10.

 

[tipphill]

i must be the only one who thinks religion is a non issue here---but does anyone what percent of the nd student body is catholic? just curious---otherwise the cultural fit for nd other than school size is the big 10

 

[normaliswear]

i must be the only one who thinks religion is a non issue here---but does anyone what percent of the nd student body is catholic? just curious---otherwise the cultural fit for nd other than school size is the big 10

Yes religeon is being overblown. But in every way but geography the ACC is a much better fit for ND than the B1G

 

[tipphill]

Yes religeon is being overblown. But in every way but geography the ACC is a much better fit for ND than the B1G

whats your thinking here?