Re: ND to the ACC and Catholics in the SE

[xc84]

i must be the only one who thinks religion is a non issue here---but does anyone what percent of the nd student body is catholic? just curious---otherwise the cultural fit for nd other than school size is the big 10

Nah. I don't think the population of Catholics in a regions will be a deciding factor regarding where ND goes.

 

[xc84]

whats your thinking here?

ND= Private, Catholic

BC= Private, Catholic

Wake= Private
Pitt= partly private
SU= Private
Duke = Private
Miami= Private


Big 10 has 1 private school and no Catholic schools

 

[tipphill]

ND= Private, Catholic

BC= Private, Catholic

Wake= Private
Pitt= partly private
SU= Private
Duke = Private
Miami= Private


Big 10 has 1 private school and no Catholic schools

beg to differ nd has history with b10, midwest values, and had gone through the process before with them---i do not think in their case anyway, private schools and size matters at all. academic rep. does and the big 10 has that

 

[Townie72]

i must be the only one who thinks religion is a non issue here---but does anyone what percent of the nd student body is catholic? just curious---otherwise the cultural fit for nd other than school size is the big 10

Pretty much 100% RC's at ND. We have a lot of kids from our area that have been recruited by ND for lacrosse. They all report that part of the interview process is sitting down with a priest who kind of screens them.

You have to go to Georgetown to find a Catholic school with a large percentage of non-Catholics (30%).

Georgetown, in it's effort to be seen as an elite educational institution would sometimes like to forget it is also a Catholic school.

A few years ago there was a movement at Georgetown to remove the crucifixes from the classrooms because some felt that it was "unwelcoming" to non-Catholics or non-Christians. The school actually tried to do that until some alumni got word of it. There was an absolute furor over it. We aren't talking about just unhappiness here, we are talking "outrage" as in "If you do that we are never contributing another dime" outrage. Under the wilting pressure from alumni and others the University reversed itself.

I don't think religion is a non-issue. It's the large group of people that support ND because they see it connected to their heritage. It's "them" versus "us".

After growing up in NJ, I can tell you there were whole families in our town that brought into the ND thing. And they were --- not surprisingly --- very large families. These people lived and died ND football. And none of them had ever gone to Notre Dame or even been to Indiana. The Chicago are RCs I have met are even more committed. Some of them have been to Indiana.

 

[All4SU]

Interesting theory. But this isn't the hamburger business.

The problem is that the growth of the Catholic population in the ACC States is very small and it this rate it will take 100 years to match the East and Midwest.

Armed with this data, I'd have to say the ND to the ACC argument isn't non-existent. But it is very weak.

Notre Dame is located in Indiana. It's traditional rivals are mostly in the Big Ten. The core of ND support is in Chicago. ND went all the way through the application process to the Big Ten including having its faculty vote overwhelmingly to join the Big Ten

Well, growth from relocation of displaced northerners and midwesterners is much more rapid than you suggest. But beyond that, I agree that as it stands right now, ND is more likely to go B10 than ACC. But the ACC is by no means out of it.
I would put the list at:

#1 - B10
#2 - ACC
#3 - Some new conference which hasn't yet been formed.

With everyone else (SEC, PAC10, B12) out of the running.

 

[xc84]

beg to differ nd has history with b10, midwest values, and had gone through the process before with them---i do not think in their case anyway, private schools and size matters at all. academic rep. does and the big 10 has that

We can differ. No problem. We'll find out who is right someday

 

[xc84]

Pretty much 100% RC's at ND. We have a lot of kids from our area that have been recruited by ND for lacrosse. They all report that part of the interview process is sitting down with a priest who kind of screens them.

You have to go to Georgetown to find a Catholic school with a large percentage of non-Catholics (30%).

Georgetown, in it's effort to be seen as an elite educational institution would sometimes like to forget it is also a Catholic school.

A few years ago there was a movement at Georgetown to remove the crucifixes from the classrooms because some felt that it was "unwelcoming" to non-Catholics or non-Christians. The school actually tried to do that until some alumni got word of it. There was an absolute furor over it. We aren't talking about just unhappiness here, we are talking "outrage" as in "If you do that we are never contributing another dime" outrage. Under the wilting pressure from alumni and others the University reversed itself.

I don't think religion is a non-issue. It's the large group of people that support ND because they see it connected to their heritage. It's "them" versus "us".

After growing up in NJ, I can tell you there were whole families in our town that brought into the ND thing. And they were --- not surprisingly --- very large families. These people lived and died ND football. And none of them had ever gone to Notre Dame or even been to Indiana. The Chicago are RCs I have met are even more committed. Some of them have been to Indiana.

So Catholics support ND (like in NJ as you noted). Will going to the ACC reduce the number of Catholics who support the team?

 

[normaliswear]

Yeah at this point we're all going around in circles. Some of us think if ND joins a conf it'll be the ACC, thats where I am. Some believe, understandably, it'd be the B1G. Most if not all believe its niether, at least in the near term. We'll find out someday... maybe.

 

[Townie72]

So Catholics support ND (like in NJ as you noted). Will going to the ACC reduce the number of Catholics who support the team?

No, but by going to the ACC, ND will be playing in cities and before crowds they have the least number of Catholics in them in the US (except for Utah or Montana or one of those square states.

Whereas, if they play in the Midwest in the Big Ten they will be playing in and amongst their traditional strong supporters against teams they have decades-old rivalries. That's where their base is.

 

[zibby]

If Notre Dame joins, I would expect Storrs Correctional or Jersey State to join along with them and then the ACC to split North/South. The Domers would be playing most of their games north of Virginia.

 

[xc84]

No, but by going to the ACC, ND will be playing in cities and before crowds they have the least number of Catholics in them in the US (except for Utah or Montana or one of those square states.

Whereas, if they play in the Midwest in the Big Ten they will be playing in and amongst their traditional strong supporters against teams they have decades-old rivalries. That's where their base is.

Yes, their traditional supporters are there..but as you said, they won't lose any of them. Home games will be the same... interest is always high. Away games are maybe more interesting based on who hates ND than who likes ND (except maybe at USC). With the ACC, Miami, BC, Pitt are already traditional rivals. And cities with a concentration of non-Catholic Christians might make for even greater rivalries of the "hated" kind. When the Yankees come to town, it's always a big draw...and not necessarily due to Yankee fans. In addition, they can play 3 OOC games which could include Michigan, USC, and another team which would still keeps their national exposure high. The more you get me to think about it, the more I think the ACC is the better option all around

 

[Townie72]

Yes, their traditional supporters are there..but as you said, they won't lose any of them. Home games will be the same... interest is always high. Away games are maybe more interesting based on who hates ND than who likes ND (except maybe at USC). With the ACC, Miami, BC, Pitt are already traditional rivals. And cities with a concentration of non-Catholic Christians might make for even greater rivalries of the "hated" kind. When the Yankees come to town, it's always a big draw...and not necessarily due to Yankee fans. In addition, they can play 3 OOC games which could include Michigan, USC, and another team which would still keeps their national exposure high. The more you get me to think about it, the more I think the ACC is the better option all around

I certainly don't. Deserting your traditional fan base to attempt to get marginal new fans is a losing strategy.

If ND joins a conference, it will unquestionably be the Big 10. That's where the school is. That''s where their traditional opponents are. That's where the fan base is.

You are creating sand castles to bolster your point. The ACC is a distant second choice. A 10% probability versus the Big 10 which is the 80% probability.

 

[xc84]

I certainly don't. Deserting your traditional fan base to attempt to get marginal new fans is a losing strategy.

If ND joins a conference, it will unquestionably be the Big 10. That's where the school is. That''s where their traditional opponents are. That's where the fan base is.

You are creating sand castles to bolster your point. The ACC is a distant second choice. A 10% probability versus the Big 10 which is the 80% probability.

Hey...that's why we have these forums ...to discuss things. We'll see who is right (if they ever make a move).

 

[KaiserUEO]

if notre dame decides to expand its reach and conquer new territory by staying in the midwest ie: the b1g, they will be the 1st entity in fluckin history to do so.

if they move, its the ACC.

every entity expands by going towards water.

nd will be no different.

playing a game in boston, NYC (Syracuse or rutgers), DC, NC, Atlanta, and Miami is good for them and the stupid euros who frequent the east coast and will likely buy a ticket or a ND hat as well.

townie, they wont build a cocoon around themselves by stayin in the midwest. they will branch out.

 

[omniorange]

if notre dame decides to expand its reach and conquer new territory by staying in the midwest ie: the b1g, they will be the 1st entity in fluckin history to do so.

if they move, its the ACC.

every entity expands by going towards water.

nd will be no different.

playing a game in boston, NYC (Syracuse or rutgers), DC, NC, Atlanta, and Miami is good for them and the stupid euros who frequent the east coast and will likely buy a ticket or a ND hat as well.

townie, they wont build a cocoon around themselves by stayin in the midwest. they will branch out.

Well, if they are coming, I hope it's soon. Hate for them to finally decide to join a conference only to learn the horses have escaped the barn, so to speak.

Cheers,
Neil

 

[KaiserUEO]

Well, if they are coming, I hope it's soon. Hate for them to finally decide to join a conference only to learn the horses have escaped the barn, so to speak.

Cheers,
Neil

everything happening right now is good for the ACC and bad for nd.

 

[kingottoiii]

I certainly don't. Deserting your traditional fan base to attempt to get marginal new fans is a losing strategy.

If ND joins a conference, it will unquestionably be the Big 10. That's where the school is. That''s where their traditional opponents are. That's where the fan base is.

You are creating sand castles to bolster your point. The ACC is a distant second choice. A 10% probability versus the Big 10 which is the 80% probability.

What is best for ND's FB program? IMO it would be joining the ACC. That will allow ND to compete on the field. The ACC is weaker, and at the same time it will help ND to recruit nationally. In the ACC, ND would have 6 home games (which helps to recruit the MW), would be in a Northeast pod (which helps to recruit that area), play a Florida team twice every three years (which helps to recruit there), play Mid-Atlantic teams once every three years (which helps to recruit those areas of talent), play Southern schools once every three years, play OCC vs USC and Navy (away games in SD) which helps to recruit California, play OOC vs Rice (which will help recruit in Texas), and then finish it all of with Michigan. Is that not the perfect gameplan for the program? Sure they are losing Stanford, Mich St, and Purdue but long term wouldn't it be better to play in every area of the country? And to play in a conference that you can actually win once in awhile? I look at that schedule and see 9 to 10 Ws every year.

Do you really think playing 8 to 9 B1G games, USC, Stanford, and Navy is a formula for success? And wouldn't that be cutting off rivalries with BC and Pitt? Going to the B1G would mean zero NE and zero Florida games for ND. Wouldn't that hurt recruiting and hurt being connected with alumni? Not to mention the would have a lot more influence in the ACC, while being just one of the crowd in the B1g. Also wouldn't moving their BBall to a MW league hurt that sport as well as its connection with Eastern alumni?

 

[KaiserUEO]

What is best for ND's FB program? IMO it would be joining the ACC. That will allow ND to compete on the field. The ACC is weaker, and at the same time it will help ND to recruit nationally. In the ACC, ND would have 6 home games (which helps to recruit the MW), would be in a Northeast pod (which helps to recruit that area), play a Florida team twice every three years (which helps to recruit there), play Mid-Atlantic teams once every three years (which helps to recruit those areas of talent), play Southern schools once every three years, play OCC vs USC and Navy (away games in SD) which helps to recruit California, play OOC vs Rice (which will help recruit in Texas), and then finish it all of with Michigan. Is that not the perfect gameplan for the program? Sure they are losing Stanford, Mich St, and Purdue but long term wouldn't it be better to play in every area of the country? And to play in a conference that you can actually win once in awhile? I look at that schedule and see 9 to 10 Ws every year.

Do you really think playing 8 to 9 B1G games, USC, Stanford, and Navy is a formula for success? And wouldn't that be cutting off rivalries with BC and Pitt? Going to the B1G would mean zero NE and zero Florida games for ND. Wouldn't that hurt recruiting and hurt being connected with alumni? Not to mention the would have a lot more influence in the ACC, while being just one of the crowd in the B1g. Also wouldn't moving their BBall to a MW league hurt that sport as well as its connection with Eastern alumni?

King, these confs are circling the wagons.

nd can either be a usless indy, or they can they can join the party.

no way in hell do they make a 'special consideration' to let them in over 1 of their 2nds if need be.

nd's little reign of totalitarianism is O.V.E.R.

 

[Townie72]

What is best for ND's FB program? IMO it would be joining the ACC. That will allow ND to compete on the field. The ACC is weaker, and at the same time it will help ND to recruit nationally. In the ACC, ND would have 6 home games (which helps to recruit the MW), would be in a Northeast pod (which helps to recruit that area), play a Florida team twice every three years (which helps to recruit there), play Mid-Atlantic teams once every three years (which helps to recruit those areas of talent), play Southern schools once every three years, play OCC vs USC and Navy (away games in SD) which helps to recruit California, play OOC vs Rice (which will help recruit in Texas), and then finish it all of with Michigan. Is that not the perfect gameplan for the program? Sure they are losing Stanford, Mich St, and Purdue but long term wouldn't it be better to play in every area of the country? And to play in a conference that you can actually win once in awhile? I look at that schedule and see 9 to 10 Ws every year.

Do you really think playing 8 to 9 B1G games, USC, Stanford, and Navy is a formula for success? And wouldn't that be cutting off rivalries with BC and Pitt? Going to the B1G would mean zero NE and zero Florida games for ND. Wouldn't that hurt recruiting and hurt being connected with alumni? Not to mention the would have a lot more influence in the ACC, while being just one of the crowd in the B1g. Also wouldn't moving their BBall to a MW league hurt that sport as well as its connection with Eastern alumni?

ND is in Indiana. It's core fan base is in the Midwest. Its traditional opponents are mostly in the Midwest. It's a complete fish out of water in the ACC.

You can't paint all the pictures and build all the sandcastles you want ... but where do you really think they will go if they have to join a conference?

The Big Ten has to be the odds on favorite. The ACC is a distant second.

 

[kingottoiii]

ND is in Indiana. It's core fan base is in the Midwest. Its traditional opponents are mostly in the Midwest. It's a complete fish out of water in the ACC.

You can't paint all the pictures and build all the sandcastles you want ... but where do you really think they will go if they have to join a conference?

The Big Ten has to be the odds on favorite. The ACC is a distant second.

Joining the B1G would be the death of ND FB. Plain and simple. They cannot compete against Mich, Mich St, Ohio St, Penn St, Wisc, Iowa, and Neb. They will be playing at least 4 of those teams every year plus USC OOC. If ND is happy going 8-4 every year and losing its national schedule than by all means you are right. However if I am ND I want a national schedule that gives me the opportunity to go 10-2 and stay relevant.

 

[longtimefan]

ND is in Indiana. It's core fan base is in the Midwest. Its traditional opponents are mostly in the Midwest. It's a complete fish out of water in the ACC.

You can't paint all the pictures and build all the sandcastles you want ... but where do you really think they will go if they have to join a conference?

The Big Ten has to be the odds on favorite. The ACC is a distant second.

Let's look at some history.

We know that the Big 10 had an open invitation to ND for many years, and that the marriage was nearly consummated in the late '90's. But remember that more recently, in 2003 exactly, there were serious discussions between the ACC and ND, before the ACC cut them off, declaring that they would accept only full members (ND wanted the same deal with the ACC that they have with the BE).

The point being that ND has looked into more options than just the Big 10.

And, as to conference compatibility--the Big 10 is more compatible football-wise. But culturally there is little difference between the Big 10 and ACC--Miami, Duke and BC recruit from the same applicant pools as ND (as do SU and Pitt for that matter). And academically, the ACC is a better fit. In fact, when the move to the Big 10 nearly happened, one of the constituencies most opposed was the ND faculty, who didn't want to be lumped in with the huge, land-grant, graduate-and-research-oriented Big 10 schools.

 

[Townie72]

Let's look at some history.

We know that the Big 10 had an open invitation to ND for many years, and that the marriage was nearly consummated in the late '90's. But remember that more recently, in 2003 exactly, there were serious discussions between the ACC and ND, before the ACC cut them off, declaring that they would accept only full members (ND wanted the same deal with the ACC that they have with the BE).

The point being that ND has looked into more options than just the Big 10.

And, as to conference compatibility--the Big 10 is more compatible football-wise. But culturally there is little difference between the Big 10 and ACC--Miami, Duke and BC recruit from the same applicant pools as ND (as do SU and Pitt for that matter). And academically, the ACC is a better fit. In fact, when the move to the Big 10 nearly happened, one of the constituencies most opposed was the ND faculty, who didn't want to be lumped in with the huge, land-grant, graduate-and-research-oriented Big 10 schools.

The ND faculty voted to accept the Big Ten invitation. The vote was 24 to 5 in favor. Just Google "Notre Dame Big 10 Invitation Faculty Vote". You are entitled to your own opinions, but not your own set of facts.

In 2003, Maryanne Fox was the new President of NCSU. She had just come from ND. She was the one that interceded with Swofford to stop the process and try to interest ND. ND had no interest. Any contact between the two entities was initiated by the ACC/Fox.

The people on here that are so convinced that ND will join the ACC --- in the highly unlikely event they eschew independence --- are starting from what they would like to happen and then trying to sell themselves and others on the logic.

 

[retro44]

after reading this thread,it is making want to go to confession for future sins i might commit.

 

[Cheriehoop]

Notre Dame has always been controlled mainly by its Chicago alumni boosters who consider themselves the traditional core of ND. Many in the ranks of their national alumni derogatively call them the Chicago mafia or mob. There has been a longtime power struggle within their ranks - Chicago with their numbers and big $ has usually won but not without hard feelings and working towards a more decentralized and national power base. Those Chicago alumni would fight tooth and nail against an ACC affiliation but their power has being challenged.

ND and BC have a long relationship and is really their only Catholic institutional "friend" in the BCS football world. It wasn't enough though to lure them into the Big East for football when BC was in it. The Catholic ties can't be ignored, it's why the Big East was an attractive destination for their non-football membership. If they go to a conference for football they would have to relinquish some power and control of their own destiny - not an attractive solution for them unless absolutely forced. They have always considered themselves a unique institution so they look for unique resolutions.

 

[Toga]

Notre Dame has always been controlled mainly by its Chicago alumni boosters who consider themselves the traditional core of ND. Many in the ranks of their national alumni derogatively call them the Chicago mafia or mob. There has been a longtime power struggle within their ranks - Chicago with their numbers and big $ has usually won but not without hard feelings and working towards a more decentralized and national power base. Those Chicago alumni would fight tooth and nail against an ACC affiliation but their power has being challenged.

ND and BC have a long relationship and is really their only Catholic institutional "friend" in the BCS football world. It wasn't enough though to lure them into the Big East for football when BC was in it. The Catholic ties can't be ignored, it's why the Big East was an attractive destination for their non-football membership. If they go to a conference for football they would have to relinquish some power and control of their own destiny - not an attractive solution for them unless absolutely forced. They have always considered themselves a unique institution so they look for unique resolutions.

Also uniquely despised.