Recruiting -- Put things in perspective

[ImperialOrange]

There is absolutely NO question that who is interested and who offers has an effect on star ratings. Both because if a guy like Saban or Fisher or Meyer want a kid, you have to reevaluate your ranking. In addition, sometimes it's not just a matter of inflation, it's a matter of awareness. At the end of the day, coaches are still better at finding kids than the services. Many times a kid just wasn't on their radar or had been fully evaluated until a big offer comes in.

Of course, when Syracuse football finds a kid, it's not as likely that they'll be noticed immediately by the services and warrant more evaluation. The FSU football/Syracuse basketball analogy works this way as well. Leonard Hamilton keeps FSU above water because his contacts and his network is virtually unparalleled for someone of his profile. He finds guys in Alaska, all over the world, and found Bernard James in the military. FSU has had the third most NBA draftees of anyone in the ACC since he's been there, but those guys stars don't rocket up.

None of that means that on an aggregate level stars don't matter.

Stars and rankings are nice but here's an example I was discussing with my UM fan coworker today. Brady Pallante is a 3 star #61 DT committed to UM. He is from Florida and had no other offers. Adly Enoicy is a 3 star #62 ranked TE committed to Syracuse. He had offers from Auburn, Florida, Florida State, Miami (FL), South Carolina, and Wisconsin. If you reverse Pallante's commitment to Syracuse and Enoicy to UM I would venture to guess the rankings might be a bit different. FSU has a TE commit with a comperable offer list in Ryan Izzo and he is a 3 star with #27 ranking.

 

[OrangePA]

There is absolutely NO question that who is interested and who offers has an effect on star ratings. Both because if a guy like Saban or Fisher or Meyer want a kid, you have to reevaluate your ranking. In addition, sometimes it's not just a matter of inflation, it's a matter of awareness. At the end of the day, coaches are still better at finding kids than the services. Many times a kid just wasn't on their radar or had been fully evaluated until a big offer comes in.

Of course, when Syracuse football finds a kid, it's not as likely that they'll be noticed immediately by the services and warrant more evaluation. The FSU football/Syracuse basketball analogy works this way as well. Leonard Hamilton keeps FSU above water because his contacts and his network is virtually unparalleled for someone of his profile. He finds guys in Alaska, all over the world, and found Bernard James in the military. FSU has had the third most NBA draftees of anyone in the ACC since he's been there, but those guys stars don't rocket up.

None of that means that on an aggregate level stars don't matter.

Who offers certainly impacts my feelings about a player!

And that's what excites me about our 2014 class - I don't ever remember getting so many players who were coveted by the likes of Florida, Clemson, South Carolina, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State and Oklahoma.

 

[Sudano]

Recruiting is a competitive sport. Its all done in competition vs other teams, particularly teams in your conference because those are the teams you will be playing every year. This class is not a top 15 class, what it does do is allow us to compete in a very competitive league who's teams are all recruiting the next tier up from our old Big East days. There's a reason Florida State and the Clemson's of the world are good and that mostly lies in getting top recruits and beating other top feeders in the food chain of college recruiting. They are getting more 4 or 5 star recruits, we are not. Of course you can pick individual players who do not ultimately live up to expectations but recruiting is done in mass. I don't care about individual players I care about 25 of them. Its simple statistics to recruit alot of good players better than your competition so when a few don't live up to expectations you still have more in the talent funnel to easily take their place. Reduce margin of error. If you're only recruiting a few top recruits your margin of error for them and your overall team is much lower.
A 2-3 star recruit doesn't mean they'll never contribute or become good it says that at this moment in time your overall skill is less than others. That doesn't project what the future holds its only the present and its more likely than not a higher rated player now will most likely be better judged on his base skills now but its not guaranteed. We misinterpret what the recruiting rating system is so much that we set up a strawman arguement that its useless. If used correctly the rating system is one tool us fans have insight into a process we will never have total access into to. Nothing is absolute but it is correlative. They're called diamonds in the rough because they are so rare, few and far between. To be a good team you need alot of really good players year after year and shouldn't rely on a concept that is rare and doesn't happen all the time. You can not base a program's future in getting 10 diamonds in the rough and expect to easily compete. You need players that live up to loftly expectations too.

 

[Sudano]

Who offers certainly impacts my feelings about a player!

And that's what excites me about our 2014 class - I don't ever remember getting so many players who were coveted by the likes of Florida, Clemson, South Carolina, Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State and Oklahoma.

You must be very young. We were doing it in the late 80's-early 90's. We were recruiting some top 15-20 recruting classes with really good players, So much in fact in a 9 year span we played top teams in good bowl games and beat LSU, Georgia, Arizona, Ohio State, Colorado, Clemson and tied Auburn.

 

[Cusester]

You must be very young. We were doing it in the late 80's-early 90's. We were recruiting some top 15-20 recruting classes with really good players, So much in fact in a 9 year span we played top teams in good bowl games and beat LSU, Georgia, Arizona, Ohio State, Colorado, Clemson and tied Auburn.

Oh oh.

 

[Sudano]

Ho Ho? No No? Coco? Toe Fro. Po Po or just Oh Oh.

 

[Orangetradition44]

OrangePA... Just take the you must be young comment as a compliment and move on Did you know we went to so many bowls against good teams?

You must be very young. We were doing it in the late 80's-early 90's. We were recruiting some top 15-20 recruting classes with really good players, So much in fact in a 9 year span we played top teams in good bowl games and beat LSU, Georgia, Arizona, Ohio State, Colorado, Clemson and tied Auburn.

 

[Sudano]

OrangePA... Just take the you must young comment as a compliment and move on

Did you know we went to so many bowls against good teams?

No offense intended. Just putting this whole thing in perspective. Anyone go to the Michigan game where SU crushed them with Tom Brady as their backup QB who got in late in the game.

 

[rrlbees]

No offense intended. Just putting this whole thing in perspective. Anyone go to the Michigan game where SU crushed them with Tom Brady as their backup QB who got in late in the game.

Many of us were there. OPA is old as dirt.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

OrangePA is old enough to remember the British Invasion.

Not the one with the Beatles, but the other one.

In 1812.

 

[bnoro]

Recruiting is a competitive sport. Its all done in competition vs other teams, particularly teams in your conference because those are the teams you will be playing every year. This class is not a top 15 class, what it does do is allow us to compete in a very competitive league who's teams are all recruiting the next tier up from our old Big East days. There's a reason Florida State and the Clemson's of the world are good and that mostly lies in getting top recruits and beating other top feeders in the food chain of college recruiting. They are getting more 4 or 5 star recruits, we are not. Of course you can pick individual players who do not ultimately live up to expectations but recruiting is done in mass. I don't care about individual players I care about 25 of them. Its simple statistics to recruit alot of good players better than your competition so when a few don't live up to expectations you still have more in the talent funnel to easily take their place. Reduce margin of error. If you're only recruiting a few top recruits your margin of error for them and your overall team is much lower.
A 2-3 star recruit doesn't mean they'll never contribute or become good it says that at this moment in time your overall skill is less than others. That doesn't project what the future holds its only the present and its more likely than not a higher rated player now will most likely be better judged on his base skills now but its not guaranteed. We misinterpret what the recruiting rating system is so much that we set up a strawman arguement that its useless. If used correctly the rating system is one tool us fans have insight into a process we will never have total access into to. Nothing is absolute but it is correlative. They're called diamonds in the rough because they are so rare, few and far between. To be a good team you need alot of really good players year after year and shouldn't rely on a concept that is rare and doesn't happen all the time. You can not base a program's future in getting 10 diamonds in the rough and expect to easily compete. You need player that live up to loftly expectations too.

You're just the worst.

 

[kcsu]

I was at the Michigan game and we destroyed them.

This class is easily our best in 10 years. I always look at the offers as a guide and the offers most of our kids had are very impressive. A few more classes like this and we are back in the top 20

 

[rrlbees]

I was at the Michigan game and we destroyed them. This class is easily our best in 10 years. I always look at the offers as a guide and the offers most of our kids had are very impressive. A few more classes like this and we are back in the top 20

I've said this a number of times before and I'll say it again. While there IS value in looking at offers and there is a difference in the big picture of seeing Akron and Buffalo vs. seeing Florida and Georgia Tech, the "star system" is more reliable than the "offer system".

 

[Sudano]

You're just the worst.

Worst what? Person ever. Should I tune my sarcasm meter? I didn't think my post was so controversial. Just providing some overall recruiting perspective.

 

[Sudano]

I've said this a number of times before and I'll say it again. While there IS value in looking at offers and there is a difference in the big picture of seeing Akron and Buffalo vs. seeing Florida and Georgia Tech, the "star system" is more reliable than the "offer system".

There is a huge connection and correlation between the two.
Both combined with the various recruiting services through the years provide even more reliability.

 

[suloyalfan]

2 stars can become stars just like 4/5 stars can flop. Just like the NFL draft. Maybe NFL GM's and scouts are bad evaluators are bad? Tom Brady says hello.

Exactly... there are hundreds of 1st round draft busts...Ryan Leaf or Payton Manning? I think the Colts got it right... Vince Young or Mario Williams? I think the Texans got it right...

You know who was drafted 1st above Donovan McNabb in 1999? Tim Couch. How many years do you think Cleveland kicked themselves for that (answer: They still are.)?

Evaluating talent, even at the elite level (NFL) is difficult because there are so many factors outside of the evaluator's control... this is the entire reason for the NFL Combine. They want to compare all of these guys side by side to limit the chances of a mistake based on just watching film, looking at stats, or going by reputation.

 

[Statesman1]

In my very short time visiting this board I'm already bored of the stars vs. offer list debate. To me, recruiting is a ultimately numbers game due to the inexact science that is player evaluation. The goal is to stockpile as much talent as possible, however we define it- then to coach it up and call a better game than your opponents. I'm more interested in how we compare to our ACC peers. Yes, this is on paper the best class we've had in years- but it is likely middle of the pack in the ACC. I am happy the offer list of this class was better than it has been in a decade but to me its relative to how our peers recruited. We're not going to overwhelm the ACC with our physical talent ala Clemson and Florida St, but if we can follow up this class with a few more like it or even better, we are at the very least increasing the odds that we will be competitive in a tough league and compete for double digit wins on a regular basis.

 

[kcsu]

I've said this a number of times before and I'll say it again. While there IS value in looking at offers and there is a difference in the big picture of seeing Akron and Buffalo vs. seeing Florida and Georgia Tech, the "star system" is more reliable than the "offer system".

Why? I think that the offer system is better as it is based on what the coaches think not the recruiting sites that will often bump a rating based on readership. I would much rather land a kid with a solid offer list than a kid with a higher ranking

 

[rrlbees]

Why? I think that the offer system is better as it is based on what the coaches think not the recruiting sites that will often bump a rating based on readership. I would much rather land a kid with a solid offer list than a kid with a higher ranking

Because for the most part the offer lists come from over zealous HS coaches and HS kids.

 

[Sudano]

Because for the most part the offer lists come from over zealous HS coaches and HS kids.

You really think kids are lieing about their offer lists en masse to make that information irrelevant to the public.

 

[rrlbees]

You really think kids are lieing about their offer lists en masse to make that information irrelevant to the public.

Did I use the word irrelevant? It's not always lies either. Verbal offers are not written. Misunderstandings take place too. And yes there are over statements if you want to call then lies. There have been kids that made up their complete offer list. My only point was that the offer lists aren't any more, and many times less reliable than the star system.

 

[MadNY3]

You must be very young. We were doing it in the late 80's-early 90's. We were recruiting some top 15-20 recruting classes with really good players, So much in fact in a 9 year span we played top teams in good bowl games and beat LSU, Georgia, Arizona, Ohio State, Colorado, Clemson and tied Auburn.

If you entered into the Internet forum version of a one-on-one with OrangePA, I would bet $eriou$ dollar$ you would get smoked big time in terms of knowledge and understanding of the program.

I don't always agree with the guy, but his knowledge base is deeper and longer than any typical fan.

Smoked.

 

[Statesman1]

If you entered into the Internet forum version of a one-on-one with OrangePA, I would bet $eriou$ dollar$ you would get smoked big time in terms of knowledge and understanding of the program.

I don't always agree with the guy, but his knowledge base is deeper and longer than any typical fan.

Smoked.

Let's set it up! Two men enter, one man leave! OrangePA may have forgotten more about SU Football than I know, but apparently that includes forgetting the glory days of the late 80's and early 90's.

 

[Sudano]

Did I use the word irrelevant? It's not always lies either. Verbal offers are not written. Misunderstandings take place too. And yes there are over statements if you want to call then lies. There have been kids that made up their complete offer list. My only point was that the offer lists aren't any more, and many times less reliable than the star system.

Interesting point. With two way credability such an important aspect of the recruiting process I find it difficult to see the benefit of making up offers in such quantity to make that information not accurate enough to believe. You do raise a good point I've been emphasizing that the only access to information is via the recruit's side of the equation. For me it does little to no good for recruits or their coaches to make up offers it will always blow up in their faces, no benefit to it. Verbal offers of a scholarship isn't written but a promise of a scholarship none the less. For the sake of a fan following the process for me its a difference without a distinction.

 

[Sudano]

If you entered into the Internet forum version of a one-on-one with OrangePA, I would bet $eriou$ dollar$ you would get smoked big time in terms of knowledge and understanding of the program.

I don't always agree with the guy, but his knowledge base is deeper and longer than any typical fan.

Smoked.

Lighten up, this isn't a pissing match as to who's a better fan. I was trying to make a off the cuff quip on the comment 'I don't ever remember getting so many players who were coveted...'.
I do remember the days we were getting players vs top teams. I have no idea how old OrangePA is. You obviously do for some reason. This board is getting more like the HS athlete clicks when a new kid comes to school. Circle Ranks against anyone percieved to disrespect one of my friends. No disrespect intended, none meant. I'm sure he's capable of responding to my post by himself.