Reminder about Frank’s performance

[MikeSU02]

It isn't all about offense. Defense wins games. Those two would have been monsters on defense. Frank is better on defense collectively thank Jimmy/Buddy. Frank and Jess would not get many shots anyhow since it is the year of Iso ball. We have plenty of offense.

Here's the other thing, our offense isn't some fluid 'all five connected' bastion of of ball movement and passing.

Do people not think the defense knows when Buddy goes head down that it's black hole time?

When Jimmy is pounding the ball to do his 'turn over the shoulder into the defense' jump hook the defense doesn't know it's coming?

It's fine to balance some O for D because we aren't whipping the ball around. The issue is without Jesse, that type of chucking isn't offset by one of the most efficient players in the country.

 

[Cusefan0307]

JB thought Jimmy could defend better at the center position with the game on the line vs Wake Forest.

Carry on.

Probably the worst strategical move of the season.

 

[OrangeDW]

Yes, by all means! We should have had two guys on the court whose offensive games are limited to 12 feet and in. One of those guys being dunk or nothing.

We have two guards on the court who can’t dribble by anybody or defend anybody.

We have two forwards on the court who can’t dribble by anybody or defend anybody.

By all means, let’s only care about the limitations of some guys’ games but not others.

 

[two3zone]

Probably the worst strategical move of the season.

There have been so many, hard to pick one. Putting Benny in over Frank on the free throw attempt at the end of the Indiana game is way up there.

 

[CardiacCuse]

Here's the other thing, our offense isn't some fluid 'all five connected' bastion of of ball movement and passing.

Do people not think the defense knows when Buddy goes head down that it's black hole time?

When Jimmy is pounding the ball to do his 'turn over the shoulder into the defense' jump hook the defense doesn't know it's coming?

It's fine to balance some O for D because we aren't whipping the ball around. The issue is without Jesse, that type of chucking isn't offset by one of the most efficient players in the country.

basically you got 3 or 4 players that just go on their own for shots...buddy joe cole and jimmy

but there cant be 4 alphas on the court at once...too many mouths to feed

maybe staggering them on the court...surrounded by defenders wouldve been a better approach

why does cole need to be out there watching buddy and joe chuck? spacing? (i answered my own question)

if jB wants to do the iso offense and get buddy ready for the pros...then he should have him come in for spurts of ball hoggery not for the whole game...then when buddy get tired cole becomes the ball hog

but id prefer just a ball moving passing offense much more

 

[Dave]

We have two guards on the court who can’t dribble by anybody or defend anybody.

We have two forwards on the court who can’t dribble by anybody or defend anybody.

By all means, let’s only care about the limitations of some guys’ games but not others.

Well, setting aside the obvious hyperbole, it is about balance. The implication that it is about anything other than basketball is just not worth tedd see ponding yo.

 

[OrangeDW]

Well, setting aside the obvious hyperbole, it is about balance. The implication that it is about anything other than basketball is just not worth tedd see ponding yo.

That is fair, but would you say we have balance on the floor right now?

I think it’s the least balanced and most one dimensional SU team I’ve ever seen.

Next year is tough to call when we don’t know for sure who we’ll have back. But let’s say we’ve got really good shooters at the point, SG, and SF spots…..couldn’t we make do with 3 shooters in the lineup, instead of 4?

And of course every game and matchup isn’t the same, so maybe you adjust things based on that….just like we did with Rick and AO.

But I guess I’m not sold that Frank and Jesse can’t play together for stretches, just like Rick and AO did.

And even right now there’s just too many stretches where Jimmy is killing us on defense/rebounding and doing nothing on offense that I can’t help but wonder….even if Frank is just as bad on defense and does nothing on offense…..he could at least rebound on both ends(remember getting offensive boards??!!), and maybe get a few putbacks.

Ultimately I think Frank will be one of the best players on the team next year, and we need both him and Jesse to play a lot, and we don’t exactly have a stud 4 man, so….

 

[Tango32]

That is fair, but would you say we have balance on the floor right now?

I think it’s the least balanced and most one dimensional SU team I’ve ever seen.

Next year is tough to call when we don’t know for sure who we’ll have back. But let’s say we’ve got really good shooters at the point, SG, and SF spots…..couldn’t we make do with 3 shooters in the lineup, instead of 4?

And of course every game and matchup isn’t the same, so maybe you adjust things based on that….just like we did with Rick and AO.

But I guess I’m not sold that Frank and Jesse can’t play together for stretches, just like Rick and AO did.

And even right now there’s just too many stretches where Jimmy is killing us on defense/rebounding and doing nothing on offense that I can’t help but wonder….even if Frank is just as bad on defense and does nothing on offense…..he could at least rebound on both ends(remember getting offensive boards??!!), and maybe get a few putbacks.

Ultimately I think Frank will be one of the best players on the team next year, and we need both him and Jesse to play a lot, and we don’t exactly have a stud 4 man, so….

If we cared about balance we'd run Torrence as a ball handling distributing slashing PG, the spot up shooting company of Joe, Buddy, Cole etc as the 2s and 3s, and Jesse and Frank as the 4 and 5 combo. That's as dynamic as you can get with this roster and in my opinion pretty decent at having different levels.

Instead we're a 1 dimensional spot up shooting huck fest plus a C.

 

[Dave]

We have two guards on the court who can’t dribble by anybody or defend anybody.

We have two forwards on the court who can’t dribble by anybody or defend anybody.

By all means, let’s only care about the limitations of some guys’ games but not others.

Yes! Let’s compound limitations!

That is fair, but would you say we have balance on the floor right now?

I think it’s the least balanced and most one dimensional SU team I’ve ever seen.

Next year is tough to call when we don’t know for sure who we’ll have back. But let’s say we’ve got really good shooters at the point, SG, and SF spots…..couldn’t we make do with 3 shooters in the lineup, instead of 4?

And of course every game and matchup isn’t the same, so maybe you adjust things based on that….just like we did with Rick and AO.

But I guess I’m not sold that Frank and Jesse can’t play together for stretches, just like Rick and AO did.

And even right now there’s just too many stretches where Jimmy is killing us on defense/rebounding and doing nothing on offense that I can’t help but wonder….even if Frank is just as bad on defense and does nothing on offense…..he could at least rebound on both ends(remember getting offensive boards??!!), and maybe get a few putbacks.

Ultimately I think Frank will be one of the best players on the team next year, and we need both him and Jesse to play a lot, and we don’t exactly have a stud 4 man, so….

i agree about the current lack of balance. I guess I don’t see the potential in Frank some do. He is very limited offensively and undersized for what he does do. Rick and Arinze were offensively gifted beasts. They overwhelmed inside which I don’t think Frank and Jesse can do. Playing for the future? Yes, I see that. I only quasi threw in the towel when Jesse got hurt.

 

[NineOneSeven]

There have been so many, hard to pick one. Putting Benny in over Frank on the free throw attempt at the end of the Indiana game is way up there.

These are the obvious two. The Indiana game is made even worse when you consider who the player was he was supposed to box out. Not an all big ten player, or anything.

 

[OrangeinDC]

Yes, by all means! We should have had two guys on the court whose offensive games are limited to 12 feet and in. One of those guys being dunk or nothing.

Bro... Defense counts too. Sometimes we need more stops than shots.

 

[OrangeinDC]

It isn't all about offense. Defense wins games. Those two would have been monsters on defense. Frank is better on defense collectively thank Jimmy/Buddy. Frank and Jess would not get many shots anyhow since it is the year of Iso ball. We have plenty of offense.

This!

 

[OrangeDW]

Yes! Let’s compound limitations!

i agree about the current lack of balance. I guess I don’t see the potential in Frank some do. He is very limited offensively and undersized for what he does do. Rick and Arinze were offensively gifted beasts. They overwhelmed inside which I don’t think Frank and Jesse can do. Playing for the future? Yes, I see that. I only quasi threw in the towel when Jesse got hurt.

Rick was solid when he and AO played together, but I wouldn’t describe him as an “offensive beast” until his senior year, at which point AO was gone.

Anyways, how about Roberts and Watkins.

Yes, Roberts would go out and take the elbow jumper….and would seemingly either airball it or swish it. He’d try to handle the ball and go to the hole sometimes - usually with poor results. He was a banger, athlete, and rebounder in terms of strengths.

Or Roberson/Coleman for a bit. That was the ill fated Lydon at the 3 and White at the 2 early in the year experiment. But we tried Roberson/Coleman together with some Chukwu, early on.

Even Warrick/Forth. Warrick could hit the 12 footer, but he didn’t even try to do more than that until he was a senior. He operated primarily on the block.

We don’t always have a 4 man who can handle the ball and shoot the 3.

 

[OrangeDW]

So in all likelihood(whatever that means), we will have: Joe, Symir, Jesse, Frank, maybe Benny, and 5 freshmen.

Maybe someone of that group transfers, and maybe we get a transfer? Maybe Cole is back?

If that’s the team, who the hell starts?

If that’s our team, our best guys are Jesse, Joe, Cole if he comes back….and Frank.

Benny hopefully starts if he’s back. And who else? Are any of these freshmen “ready”? Symir probably starts?

We badly need a transfer guard IMO. And if Cole doesn’t come back, a transfer forward too.

 

[dollarbill44]

There have been so many, hard to pick one. Putting Benny in over Frank on the free throw attempt at the end of the Indiana game is way up there.

I thought about the exact same decision as I was reading that, too. What's sad is these are mistakes that JB would never have made up until 4 years ago.

 

[dollarbill44]

Yes! Let’s compound limitations!

i agree about the current lack of balance. I guess I don’t see the potential in Frank some do. He is very limited offensively and undersized for what he does do. Rick and Arinze were offensively gifted beasts. They overwhelmed inside which I don’t think Frank and Jesse can do. Playing for the future? Yes, I see that. I only quasi threw in the towel when Jesse got hurt.

I don't recall them being offensive beasts when they got here. It's not fair to compare Frank's development to junior/senior year AO and Rick. JB used his bench differently back then too and developed his big men better.
Since Bernie left, our big men have been mostly left to their own devices. Rak went to Vegas on his own dime to learn offense. Chukwu played catch with 3 year olds to get better (I kid. I loved PC for what he was and for his effort). Jesse goes home to the Netherlands each summer to play/train with Euro pros and work on his game.

 

[longtimefan]

I thought about the exact same decision as I was reading that, too. What's sad is these are mistakes that JB would never have made up until 4 years ago.

Not so. I think all the way back to the "Digger-dances-in-the-Dome" game. Michael Edwards was on the court instead of Dave Johnson. ND would have had a lot more trouble getting off that final shot if DJ had been out there.

The point is, it's easy to find instances where questionable, second-guessable decisions were made. And you can perform the same exercise with anyone who's ever coached.

 

[MSOrange]

 

[dollarbill44]

Not so. I think all the way back to the "Digger-dances-in-the-Dome" game. Michael Edwards was on the court instead of Dave Johnson. ND would have had a lot more trouble getting off that final shot if DJ had been out there.

The point is, it's easy to find instances where questionable, second-guessable decisions were made. And you can perform the same exercise with anyone who's ever coached.

I mean, maybe??? I remember the 3 was shot over Billy Owens, iirc (it was a long time ago). It was probably less a case of personnel than it was focus, since no one seemed to cover the guy after thr initial in-bounds pass. Regardless, if a wacky full-court, 2 pass buzzer beating 3 pointer from 32 years ago is your refuting evidence, I don't know that it's as easy to come up with instances as you claim.
I also don't know that we're talking about comparable clear cut situations. The end of the Indiana game was a clear intentional missed FT upcoming and you've got a real back-up center on the bench with a lot more experience playing against men than a bit-role true freshman (albeit the best freshman forward we've had since Woody Newton) to try to box out a guy who ate up the defense inside all second half of the game.

 

[AZOrange]

Do we have any idea of what the roster will look like next year? There is so much turnover all over the sport now. We actually have a lot of good to very good (but not great) pieces but the overall construction is sort of baffling.

No. I mean there are scenarios that could have Joe and SY and 1 big back…

 

[Ozone!]

Hoping both Frank and Jesse return for next year and that both start together. Let the incoming recruits have minutes in relief of those 2!

 

[Sherman20]

So in all likelihood(whatever that means), we will have: Joe, Symir, Jesse, Frank, maybe Benny, and 5 freshmen.

Maybe someone of that group transfers, and maybe we get a transfer? Maybe Cole is back?

If that’s the team, who the hell starts?

If that’s our team, our best guys are Jesse, Joe, Cole if he comes back….and Frank.

Benny hopefully starts if he’s back. And who else? Are any of these freshmen “ready”? Symir probably starts?

We badly need a transfer guard IMO. And if Cole doesn’t come back, a transfer forward too.

We’ll definitely get a transfer. I suspect at least one but possibly two.

 

[Fly Rodder]

We’ll definitely get a transfer. I suspect at least one but possibly two.

Someone we offered in 2021 and they're not playing well somewhere else ...

 

[MSOrange]

 

[Day2]

Well, setting aside the obvious hyperbole, it is about balance. The implication that it is about anything other than basketball is just not worth tedd see ponding yo.

If “Ted C. Ponding, yo,” doesn’t catch on, we might as well shut down the board.