Resetting expectations?

[Nicknack]

Coaching issues aside, we still need MUCH better point guard play more than anything else

That's for sure. I think that's our biggest issue (aside from coaching). However, sometimes you just miss on a player or I think in George's case, we didn't get all that we were hoping.

 

[RF2044]

A point was brought up on the Cuse Nation radio show today that if NIL was a thing back in 2014 we probably wouldn’t have been able to afford to assemble that team. It would seem there’s truth to that based on our NIL funding to date.

Realistically, what level of success does everyone think is possible for this program in the NIL era? Can we aspire to be a final four contender, let alone have national championship aspirations sans a flukey run? Maybe we’re destined to be one of the many middling ACC teams that just hope to sneak into the tournament at best.. idk.

A new coach, while almost guaranteed to be better at coaching than Autry, will still by limited by the quality of talent that they can acquire (read: buy). While there are outliers, a vast majority of the best teams seem to have the largest NIL budgets.

I think it is 100% possible to succeed, without having to break the bank with respect to NIL spend.

Our example should be Purdue. They have a system, they are well coached, they don't necessarily go out and try to compete for 5-star talent, they target system fits, and they coach them up, to the tune of being a consistent top 10-ish team every year.

What I don't see working for us is trying to be the type of program that attempts to compete by trying to outspend teams from the B1G and SEC. Seems like a losing battle, before we even begin.

I just think we need to pick a lane. The lane we picked with Red, a subpar coach, was to try to overcome his limitations by spending a lot of $$$ in the portal, we just picked the wrong players two years in a row.

A better lane for us is to get a great coach [like Shertz or Skinn, just for example -- not saying they are the only ones] who has a proven track record / quality offensive system. And then recruit to that system. Not suggesting it won't take some moderate level of NIL, maybe even trending higher than average, but that feels more sustainable than trying to get into the arms race.

 

[Consigliere]

Almost no one actually posting here is giving Red a pass. There are some folks who have largely stopped posting on the board who are still clinging to the why is everyone so mean/macro funding excuse. I can tell from who likes certain posts.

Regardless, you’re right about where we need to rank nation wide in regards to player compensation. And it’s why I keep saying that if we can’t scrounge up the money to do that then let’s consider reevaluating just what level Syracuse athletics should be competing at.

Absolutely not giving him a pass even though I was one of the last few to accept the inevitability of a change coming.
On the other hand I am genuinely curious what productive outcome anyone thinks continuous negativity brings. Booing and chanting fire the coach won’t impact the change or its timing. Expectations of meaningful games in March has been publicly stated. Reading Donna’s article yesterday confirmed that the players are affected and feel the added pressure. And prospective replacements and roster additions may or may not notice, but if they do it is certainly not in a positive light.
I’ll be at every remaining home game cheering for the program and, when the time comes, will give the same support to the next guy up.

 

[orangecuse]

Unfortunately this seems to resemble the MLB way of doing things the way the current NIL rules are. So it’s simple to me, either spend money to make money or play money ball. If your expectations are spend money to make money, our expectations should mirror what they always have and that’s being a perennial power consistently in the top 25 and we are arguing which seed we should be. If we play moneyball then expectations are to just make the tourney. It’s that simple to me.

I have a bigger question, I would consider cuse to be a top 10 historical program. Of the other 9 teams in that list, where do we rank in regards to NIL? How are the others doing it and we can’t? Why is it constantly this feeling like we are in the “have nots” although we have historically been a great program? Why are we the odd program out?

When including the 101 W's that were taken away from, most importantly, the school due to JB's 2nd probation, etc. Syracuse University is the 5th winningest program in the history of D1 college hoops. Kentucky, Kansas, North Carolina, Duke, Syracuse.

Well, 'the answer my friend is blowing in the wind.' Look no further, for the most part, than the failed leadership through the years. Lack of foresight, action, etc. I mean, SU was given an ultimatum years ago to build a new football stadium to replace Archbold, or get booted from D1. Look at the IPF. Marrone begged and pleaded for an IPF and was told "someday," when "someday" was already a day late and a dollar short...etc., etc.

SU's track record from leadership has always been reactive vs. proactive. SU was fortunate enough to survive and in some instances even thrive with leadership being as such, but with the landscape of collegiate revenue sports changing on a dime, well...good luck. Moreover, and perhaps most critical, is the fact that SU is a small private, therefore, making it a continued uphill battle just to stay generally relative, let alone win at the level accustomed to.

In the end, you reap what you sow.

 

[CuseTG2003]

Yep. And as much as it pains me to say this, but if we can’t compete with the Kentucky’s and Indiana’s of the world, and we have to make a choice, then I’m for funding hoops to be a national power and letting football wallow. The latter is more likely a pipe dream anyway. Let’s be really good at something instead of mediocre everywhere.

Couldn't agree more

 

[NKR1978]

I think you bring up an interesting point. I've previously been a very small donor, but I try to be part of the solution instead of the problem when I can. But at the same time, I don't like flushing my money down the toilet. That's one difference between NIL and donating for a facility/infrastructure. At least you know the facility is going to be built.

Imagine they brought Red back. He has such a good roster, how on earth could anyone justify throwing money away on more players that this staff will do nothing with because they're not capable of doing anything with them?

 

[Scooch]

As you know, football drives the revenue boat. I don't see the university abandoning that ship anytime soon.

For sure, I do get that. It’s just frustrating to have the one program where we have been historically a national power be reduced to… whatever *this* has been the past few years.

 

[Scooch]

Absolutely not giving him a pass even though I was one of the last few to accept the inevitability of a change coming.
On the other hand I am genuinely curious what productive outcome anyone thinks continuous negativity brings. Booing and chanting fire the coach won’t impact the change or its timing. Expectations of meaningful games in March has been publicly stated. Reading Donna’s article yesterday confirmed that the players are affected and feel the added pressure. And prospective replacements and roster additions may or may not notice, but if they do it is certainly not in a positive light.
I’ll be at every remaining home game cheering for the program and, when the time comes, will give the same support to the next guy up.

This is what I said to Cardiac Cuse yesterday when he asked the exact same question…

They're being fans. And they're acting like literally every other fan base on Earth when the team they follow is in the midst of a multi-year run of very poor play.

The "they're just kicking Red when he's down/no need to be so mean" sentiment that some folks are endorsing is silly. It's the usual refrain of those who think they're above the cretins who follow SU sports.

This is how sports work. This is especially how pro sports work, and, like it or not, men's college basketball is a pro sport now.

Meanwhile, Syracuse is such a soft touch community compared to most. People are upset that 20 students chanted "fire Autry". And that a few dozen internet posters keep posting that they want him fired.

Hell, the Dome crowd hasn't even really booed yet. Just a couple instances of a smattering of grumbles.

I've seen full blown toxic situations surrounding a franchise and/or coach. Right now at SU we're at like a 3 or 4 on a 10 point scale. And this fanbase simply isn't capable of hitting a 10.

 

[Consigliere]

This is what I said to Cardiac Cuse yesterday when he asked the exact same question…

Understand completely though the boos have been very prevalent the last couple of games. And I know that it’s not uncommon in college sports. I am just trying to understand what productive purpose anyone could expect it to achieve.

 

[kingtidge]

Understand completely though the boos have been very prevalent the last couple of games. And I know that it’s not uncommon in college sports. I am just trying to understand what productive purpose anyone could expect it to achieve.

I don't think it's any sort veiled, coded message.

People have simply seen ENOUGH and they are expressing that... and the purpose is to let the administration and school know, loud and clear, that it's time to make a move.

This isn't surprising or unwarranted, and, frankly, it was the most likely outcome in an Autry runback, year 3 (tho we all wanted to hope magically for better.)

It is sad, however... and also the culmination of a largely lost decade.

 

[007]

For sure, I do get that. It’s just frustrating to have the one program where we have been historically a national power be reduced to… whatever *this* has been the past few years.

No doubt.

From the little I do know, I believe the university and new Chancellor are committed to getting the program headed in the right direction.

 

[Consigliere]

I don't think it's any sort veiled, coded message.

People have simply seen ENOUGH and they are expressing that... and the purpose is to let the administration and school know, loud and clear, that it's time to make a move.

This isn't surprising or unwarranted, and, frankly, it was the most likely outcome in an Autry runback, year 3 (tho we all wanted to hope magically for better.)

It is sad, however... and also the culmination of a largely lost decade.

Again. What productive purpose does it serve? Whether at Syracuse or anywhere else. There is a possibility of counterproductive ramifications, real or imagined, but I just can’t understand how anyone could think it makes things better. The decision makers have set standards and negativity toward current players or coaches won’t influence the evaluation of those standards.

 

[CardiacCuse]

A point was brought up on the Cuse Nation radio show today that if NIL was a thing back in 2014 we probably wouldn’t have been able to afford to assemble that team. It would seem there’s truth to that based on our NIL funding to date.

Realistically, what level of success does everyone think is possible for this program in the NIL era? Can we aspire to be a final four contender, let alone have national championship aspirations sans a flukey run? Maybe we’re destined to be one of the many middling ACC teams that just hope to sneak into the tournament at best.. idk.

A new coach, while almost guaranteed to be better at coaching than Autry, will still by limited by the quality of talent that they can acquire (read: buy). While there are outliers, a vast majority of the best teams seem to have the largest NIL budgets.

i mean i hear what youre saying in a way and if it is proven true i will actually stop watching this sport

but looking at success of teams like nebraska, houston, st louis, byu etc i just cant believe that all of these random schools with little pedigree somehow can get it done but the cuse cant, with their mega fanbase

i think the inertia and momentum of the program is at a low and its hard to get it back in the right direction...and thats all it is

winning will cure a lot...and somehow the NIL will magically be there

 

[Scooch]

Understand completely though the boos have been very prevalent the last couple of games. And I know that it’s not uncommon in college sports. I am just trying to understand what productive purpose anyone could expect it to achieve.

When a ref makes a terrible call and you grumble, shout and/or boo (I’ll assume you do this) are you expecting the ref to change his call (a.k.a. a “productive purpose)?

Of course not, you’re merely expressing frustration.

 

[Orangezoo]

Again. What productive purpose does it serve? Whether at Syracuse or anywhere else. There is a possibility of counterproductive ramifications, real or imagined, but I just can’t understand how anyone could think it makes things better. The decision makers have set standards and negativity toward current players or coaches won’t influence the evaluation of those standards.

Out of curiosity which is better- apathy in not donating , not showing up at games or spending money to show up and voice displeasure?

Personally my small contributions as an alum are on hold until there is massive improvement and that includes making the trek from DC to the games. I understand both and both send a message. Also I will just add as someone who worked multiple jobs while attending school to put myself through and started in the hole in my career - these athletes are being put in a far better position once they graduate because of the amount of money even the smaller amounts. I would have killed for that. Not a complaint but what comes with compensation is both expectations and ridicule as you now have a job. If a bad leader is behind the ridicule then you move on and get a paycheck elsewhere.

 

[kingtidge]

Again. What productive purpose does it serve? Whether at Syracuse or anywhere else. There is a possibility of counterproductive ramifications, real or imagined, but I just can’t understand how anyone could think it makes things better. The decision makers have set standards and negativity toward current players or coaches won’t influence the evaluation of those standards.

I stated the purpose clearly and I never implied you have to agree with that purpose.

Also, why are you conflating the displeasure with the coaching with negativity towards the current players? I don't think many have negativity towards the current players... If anything, a lot see the substandard coaching as wasting the players and talent assembled. Certainly not the players fault in my book.

 

[Sherman20]

What share of that allotted $20.5 million is going to football at Gonzaga?

Schools don’t just “get” $20.5 million to compensate athletes. They have to *fund* that much if they decide to use the full allowed allotment.

These school’s revenues are a fraction of what P4 schools generate.

My hunch is that prominent hoops-onlies are not paying 75% of that $20.5 million to men’s basketball players. I doubt they’re funding the full $20.5 million and definitely not self funding it through university revenue. They’re leaning hard on private donors, I suspect, to fill the gap. Which means less available money for NIL.

As Scooch says above, Schools like Gonzaga and even many of the Big East programs aren’t funding anywhere near the $20.5 million of the max athlete compensation allotment.

 

[IthaCuse]

I don't waste my time with what Syracuse University paid media or "board insiders" say on these topics, as both have proven to just regurgitate the company line over the last decade. I tend to look at what neutral third parties say. From what I have seen people in that category say, Syracuse is somewhere around 7th-11th in NIL among ACC schools.

If that is true, Syracuse is probably behind the majority of the B10, B12 and SEC in NIL funding as well. So let's say they're around 35th-50th in NIL funding nationwide. When you factor in NCAA Tournament auto bids, the default expectation is that Syracuse is a bubble team. In a good year we are probably around the 55th best team, in a bad year we are probably around the 70th best team. At no point do we have a legitimate shot at competing with the upper echelons of college basketball.

When you factor in the bad economy, bad weather, relative lack of facilities, declining ranking of the school academically, it's hard to see why a great coach would come here. People don't seem to realize that the best coaches will gravitate to the high NIL schools the further into this era we go, so our ability to use great coaching to overcome a talent deficiency will be severely compromised. It's not like a coach who punches above his weight is just going to stay here, not when he can go somewhere that will advance his career further.

A few weeks ago I got blasted by many on the football forum for openly asking whether the football program was a lost cause, and this conversation on the basketball forum was largely the reason why. From my perspective, the worst thing we can do is maintain the facade that we can compete at the highest level of college sports, and in the process lose our ability to compete at the top level of ANY major sport. That is what I see happening right now, and it appears to me that both football and basketball are circling the drain.

If I were John Wildhack, I would completely change course on how I am operating the athletic department. I would keep football only as a means of generating ACC TV revenue, dedicating the amount of NIL to it required to keep us at the level of a MAC or CUSA school, and spending the rest on basketball. That would mean about $2 million to football and about $18.5 million to basketball. If you do that you turn Syracuse basketball into a top funded program, and we can actually be elite again.

Financially it also makes sense. You can cover $18.5 million via ticket revenue to basketball games. At an average of $100 per ticket and an average attendance of 18,500 you cover it in 10 home games. When the ACC eventually drops Syracuse because football is no longer competitive, you move to the Big East and drop football completely. At that point you've oriented the community entirely around basketball, you have a money machine to pay top levels of NIL, and you have a chance of seeing Syracuse Basketball be great again.

Instead it seems we are going to try to function as a back of the pack P4 program, as that will make money for the university due to the TV revenue we will generate. So we as fans will get to sit here and watch 22-9 seasons where we get a 7 or 8 seed become the goal, while 19-12 seasons where we just miss the tournament become the expectation. Both are better than the Red Autry dumpster fire, but neither is up to the standard we as fans had come to enjoy.

 

[Consigliere]

Out of curiosity which is better- apathy in not donating , not showing up at games or spending money to show up and voice displeasure?

When a ref makes a terrible call and you grumble, shout and/or boo (I’ll assume you do this) are you expecting the ref to change his call (a.k.a. a “productive purpose)?

I get the frustration and displeasure and share it. And I absolutely have leant my voice to letting a ref know when I think he is not performing at an expected level. The difference is I don’t support or cheer for a ref and am not emotionally invested.
And I don’t think it’s an either or, apathy or booing.
Maybe it’s because I have seen it all in 50 plus years of fandom, but I go to every game regardless of the record and pull for my team.
Again understand the frustration and how some feel a need to vent. Just don’t see any rationale that there is a productive purpose - driving an outcome that may improve things - and can understand that it may be counterproductive.
No issues if others disagree.
Peace.

 

[Jasoncuse]

Roster seems to have talent now, just with horrible coaching and guard play.

Pay the right guys to play in an actual system with quality coaching and we can certainly become relevant again.

Whether that’s a priority is a different question altogether

 

[Scooch]

I get the frustration and displeasure and share it. And I absolutely have leant my voice to letting a ref know when I think he is not performing at an expected level. The difference is I don’t support or cheer for a ref and am not emotionally invested.
And I don’t think it’s an either or, apathy or booing.
Maybe it’s because I have seen it all in 50 plus years of fandom, but I go to every game regardless of the record and pull for my team.
Again understand the frustration and how some feel a need to vent. Just don’t see any rationale that there is a productive purpose - driving an outcome that may improve things - and can understand that it may be counterproductive.
No issues if others disagree.
Peace.

All good. Everyone should "fan" how they want. If I didn't live 300 miles from the Dome I'd almost certainly have season tix and go to most every game as well. I'll watch tonight, against my better judgement.

These are discussion boards and IMHO there's no more important discussion at the moment than about who is going to revive our moribund program. That can be tedious and repetitive, I certainly get it. And there's no need for mean-spirited, personal attacks. I don't spend any time on X or Reddit, but I don't see much of that here.

 

[MSOrange]

I don't waste my time with what Syracuse University paid media or "board insiders" say on these topics, as both have proven to just regurgitate the company line over the last decade. I tend to look at what neutral third parties say. From what I have seen people in that category say, Syracuse is somewhere around 7th-11th in NIL among ACC schools.

If that is true, Syracuse is probably behind the majority of the B10, B12 and SEC in NIL funding as well. So let's say they're around 35th-50th in NIL funding nationwide. When you factor in NCAA Tournament auto bids, the default expectation is that Syracuse is a bubble team. In a good year we are probably around the 55th best team, in a bad year we are probably around the 70th best team. At no point do we have a legitimate shot at competing with the upper echelons of college basketball.

When you factor in the bad economy, bad weather, relative lack of facilities, declining ranking of the school academically, it's hard to see why a great coach would come here. People don't seem to realize that the best coaches will gravitate to the high NIL schools the further into this era we go, so our ability to use great coaching to overcome a talent deficiency will be severely compromised. It's not like a coach who punches above his weight is just going to stay here, not when he can go somewhere that will advance his career further.

A few weeks ago I got blasted by many on the football forum for openly asking whether the football program was a lost cause, and this conversation on the basketball forum was largely the reason why. From my perspective, the worst thing we can do is maintain the facade that we can compete at the highest level of college sports, and in the process lose our ability to compete at the top level of ANY major sport. That is what I see happening right now, and it appears to me that both football and basketball are circling the drain.

If I were John Wildhack, I would completely change course on how I am operating the athletic department. I would keep football only as a means of generating ACC TV revenue, dedicating the amount of NIL to it required to keep us at the level of a MAC or CUSA school, and spending the rest on basketball. That would mean about $2 million to football and about $18.5 million to basketball. If you do that you turn Syracuse basketball into a top funded program, and we can actually be elite again.

Financially it also makes sense. You can cover $18.5 million via ticket revenue to basketball games. At an average of $100 per ticket and an average attendance of 18,500 you cover it in 10 home games. When the ACC eventually drops Syracuse because football is no longer competitive, you move to the Big East and drop football completely. At that point you've oriented the community entirely around basketball, you have a money machine to pay top levels of NIL, and you have a chance of seeing Syracuse Basketball be great again.

Instead it seems we are going to try to function as a back of the pack P4 program, as that will make money for the university due to the TV revenue we will generate. So we as fans will get to sit here and watch 22-9 seasons where we get a 7 or 8 seed become the goal, while 19-12 seasons where we just miss the tournament become the expectation. Both are better than the Red Autry dumpster fire, but neither is up to the standard we as fans had come to enjoy.

Do your "neutral third parties" have any info available on the internet? If so, can you provide links?

 

[IthaCuse]

Do your "neutral third parties" have any info available on the internet? If so, can you provide links?

Randolph Childress said it on Cuse Sports Talk the other day. I think Mike McCallister echoed those sentiments. Boeheim has said we need $10 million and we don’t have it.

 

[MSOrange]

Randolph Childress said it on Cuse Sports Talk the other day. I think Mike McCallister echoed those sentiments. Boeheim has said we need $10 million and we don’t have it.

Thanks. I'll have to listen to the Childress interview and look for what McCallister said. There have been enough "JB says" moments over the years that I take him with a grain of salt.

 

[IthacaMatt]

A point was brought up on the Cuse Nation radio show today that if NIL was a thing back in 2014 we probably wouldn’t have been able to afford to assemble that team. It would seem there’s truth to that based on our NIL funding to date.

Realistically, what level of success does everyone think is possible for this program in the NIL era? Can we aspire to be a final four contender, let alone have national championship aspirations sans a flukey run? Maybe we’re destined to be one of the many middling ACC teams that just hope to sneak into the tournament at best.. idk.

A new coach, while almost guaranteed to be better at coaching than Autry, will still by limited by the quality of talent that they can acquire (read: buy). While there are outliers, a vast majority of the best teams seem to have the largest NIL budgets.

The nice thing about basketball is that you only need a few excellent players to be a contender. In football, you need about 40. Economically, it's more feasible to compete in basketball. But basketball TV revenues don't pay the bills.