Serious question... About Michael Carter Williams

[Millhouse]

I don't get how anyone could want to bench MCW over Triche. Night in and night out the other teams 2g is completely outplaying ours. MCW has to try to make things happen otherwise we would just throw the ball around the perimeter all game since apparantly we have zero clue how to attack a zone. I do agree that MCW has been disappointing, I just can't get mad at him when his backcourt mate is completely ******* the bed every game.

this is exactly how i feel. there's only so much anger i can expend and triche is eating it all up even though MCW deserves it.

these guys shoot like they're wearing drunk driving simulator goggles

 

[RF2044]

Thank you.

At least MCW tries to make something happen. Why does nobody question Triche's heart? The guy shows no emotion and defers to MCW; clearly he must not care. Why does nobody question Southerland's heart? The guy chucks up contested 3 after contested 3 and never passes up his own shot to get a teammate a better look; clearly he must not care. Why does nobody question CJ Fair's heart? The guy scores efficiently, but he has no problem deferring to the guys that aren't nearly as efficient; clearly he must not care.

Are you freaking kidding me with that CJ criticism?

He is the only one on this team who gets the job done against top notch opposition. And you criticize him for not doing more and playing within a team offensive concept? :noidea:

 

[RF2044]

I don't think MCW is auditioning. I just don't think he's that good.

Don't get me wrong, he's a pretty good player--just not the transcendent talent some were predicting early on. He's a lousy offensive player, and he does very little to make his teammates better--especially in games like yesterday where he has difficulty penetrating. Leaves his feet with nowhere to go and nobody to pass to, and commits a ton of unforced turnovers.

Other than that, how'd you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?

I know that somebody is going to call me out for that assessment of MCW, but it seems pretty accurate to me. I do not believe that he is "auditioning," however--I think he is legitimately trying to make plays but just doesn't have the capability to do some of the stuff he's trying to do at this stage of his developmental curve.

 

[iommi]

It would help MCW if we could make a jump shot. His form is awful.

 

[jdubs30]

I don't think MCW is auditioning. I just don't think he's that good.

Don't get me wrong, he's a pretty good player--just not the transcendent talent some were predicting early on. He's a lousy offensive player, and he does very little to make his teammates better--especially in games like yesterday where he has difficulty penetrating. Leaves his feet with nowhere to go and nobody to pass to, and commits a ton of unforced turnovers.

Other than that, how'd you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?

I know that somebody is going to call me out for that assessment of MCW, but it seems pretty accurate to me. I do not believe that he is "auditioning," however--I think he is legitimately trying to make plays but just doesn't have the capability to do some of the stuff he's trying to do at this stage of his developmental curve.

Should be really interesting to watch him in the NBA next year. He can't even get by Marcel Starks and Junior Cauodagan, he's gonna have a hell of a time with Kyrie Irving and Russell Westbrook.

 

[cusetown1]

I don't think MCW is auditioning. I just don't think he's that good.

Don't get me wrong, he's a pretty good player--just not the transcendent talent some were predicting early on. He's a lousy offensive player, and he does very little to make his teammates better--especially in games like yesterday where he has difficulty penetrating. Leaves his feet with nowhere to go and nobody to pass to, and commits a ton of unforced turnovers.

Other than that, how'd you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?

I know that somebody is going to call me out for that assessment of MCW, but it seems pretty accurate to me. I do not believe that he is "auditioning," however--I think he is legitimately trying to make plays but just doesn't have the capability to do some of the stuff he's trying to do at this stage of his developmental curve.

It doesn't matter how good he is, he will get drafted on potential. His head seems like its somewhere else.

 

[cusetown1]

Thank you.

At least MCW tries to make something happen. Why does nobody question Triche's heart? The guy shows no emotion and defers to MCW; clearly he must not care. Why does nobody question Southerland's heart? The guy chucks up contested 3 after contested 3 and never passes up his own shot to get a teammate a better look; clearly he must not care. Why does nobody question CJ Fair's heart? The guy scores efficiently, but he has no problem deferring to the guys that aren't nearly as efficient; clearly he must not care.

Throwing the ball to the other team is a problem. Both guards were awful.

 

[rosconey]

cant get on the kid for leaving if he gets a lottery check-

but man his game is loaded with holes-but since he is 6-6- he is the cats a$$-and everyone has been searching for the next magic for 30 years

how in the world can a point guard who cant handle the rock under any kind of pressure nba ready? a kid who is making as many mistakes as great plays like a sophmore should is league material?

too much is given to "potential" in the nba draft

 

[RF2044]

cant get on the kid for leaving if he gets a lottery check-

but man his game is loaded with holes-but since he is 6-6- he is the cats a$$-and everyone has been searching for the next magic for 30 years

how in the world can a point guard who cant handle the rock under any kind of pressure nba ready? a kid who is making as many mistakes as great plays like a sophmore should is league material?

too much is given to "potential" in the nba draft

Completely agree. No doubt, he's going to get drafted on potential. And he might even go in the lottery [and probably will]. But he isn't close to being ready, and his offensive game is a huge liability.

On a more positive note, for those who were clamoring for Tony Wroten over MCW a few years ago--unfortunately, looks like we got him.

 

[OttoMets]

I don't know if that's fair. That class brought some excitement back to the Hill after a couple mediocre seasons. Donte in particular was stuck playing a role he shouldn't have played when Eric went down. At that point he and Flynn were the only shooters.

We also got to watch Scoop and Rick grow up. This years team would be really good with Scoop and Rick. And you know, aren't most freshmen complete idiots? Freshman idiocy is a universal truth.

And no SU team compares to the 02 team. The 08 team isn't in the same time zone as 02.

I go back and forth on this, but 2002 had a couple bright spots (in addition to our late comebacks to beat Wake and Michigan State to win the NIT, which was flat-out fun).

First, just like you say about Scoop and Rick, we got to watch Forth, Pace, and Hakim grow up. So that was cool.

And Shumpert and Duany were likeable veterans (and good players). Unfortunately, 2008 didn't have any of those. One could have hoped for Onuaku to step into a leadership role, but that was not in him (he was very green for a third-year guy, anyway).

I'm happy to be in the minority re: 2008. I don't buy that it was necessary for Donte to play the way he did; plenty of thin teams have gotten by with a more disciplined approach and without 30-footers by the athletic 6'10" kid. They showed us some fun and they also had stretches of really dumb and rudderless play. In the end, there was a reason that the coaching staff encouraged the core of that team to leave eligibility on the table over the next three seasons and we started assembling top-five teams again.

 

[OttoMets]

Like Billy Edelin did to...Chris Thomas? That ND guard, Billy destroyed him. MCW needs some of that but...Billy also had GMac on the perimeter who kinda needed to be guarded. Triche...not so much.

This is something that gives me pause about our player development.

If those two can't shoot, fine. But we've got starting guards that average 6'5". There's got to be a way to wring more production out of that advantage. It'd be nice to see both guards attempting to back their defender down every so often.

 

[orangecuse]

I don't think MCW is auditioning. I just don't think he's that good.

Don't get me wrong, he's a pretty good player--just not the transcendent talent some were predicting early on. He's a lousy offensive player, and he does very little to make his teammates better--especially in games like yesterday where he has difficulty penetrating. Leaves his feet with nowhere to go and nobody to pass to, and commits a ton of unforced turnovers.

Other than that, how'd you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?

I know that somebody is going to call me out for that assessment of MCW, but it seems pretty accurate to me. I do not believe that he is "auditioning," however--I think he is legitimately trying to make plays but just doesn't have the capability to do some of the stuff he's trying to do at this stage of his developmental curve.

I completely agree with your assessment and why I've struggled so much with all this ongoing NBA lottery pick garb. IMO, as I stated here very early on in the season, MCW's game, style, build, quickness (lack thereof) etc, reminded me a lot of Lazarus Sims. Sims, however, at least I don't recall now, didn't have so many of the same repetitve crazy to's, certainly not in crunch time. He, imo, was a lot more floor savvy, and a much better floor general...

 

[RF2044]

I completely agree with your assessment and why I've struggled so much with all this ongoing NBA lottery pick garb. IMO, as I stated here very early on in the season, MCW's game, style, build, quickness (lack thereof) etc, reminded me a lot of Lazarus Sims. Sims, however, at least I don't recall now, didn't have so many of the same repetitve to's, certainly not in crunch time. He, imo, was a lot more floor savvy, and a much better floor general...

No question about that. And in fairness, Sims was a 5th year senior when he took over the reins, so perhaps that is an unfair comparison on our part. But there is so much that MCW should be able to do with that body / game that he just doesn't consistently do.

At the end of the day, a PG has one job: facilitate the offense. And the really good ones make their teammates better. MCW does a poor job of the former, and doesn't really do the latter.

 

[orangecuse]

No question about that. And in fairness, Sims was a 5th year senior when he took over the reins, so perhaps that is an unfair comparison on our part. But there is so much that MCW should be able to do with that body / game that he just doesn't consistently do.

At the end of the day, a PG has one job: facilitate the offense. And the really good ones make their teammates better. MCW does a poor job of the former, and doesn't really do the latter.

Yeah, you're correct about that...and the 5th year senior maturity thing. Though, with MCW being 21, I guess I still feel his leadership out there should be more reflective of same, even though it is his first year of relevant PT. :noidea:

 

[dollarbill44]

Thank you.

At least MCW tries to make something happen. Why does nobody question Triche's heart? The guy shows no emotion and defers to MCW; clearly he must not care. Why does nobody question Southerland's heart? The guy chucks up contested 3 after contested 3 and never passes up his own shot to get a teammate a better look; clearly he must not care. Why does nobody question CJ Fair's heart? The guy scores efficiently, but he has no problem deferring to the guys that aren't nearly as efficient; clearly he must not care.

Why do people say he doesn't care or that he defers to MCW? I haven't seen evidence of either, not that I'm completely sure what you mean by "defer". Did you see BT when he fouled out and went to the sideline? He obviously cares - he just doesn't show it on his face.

 

[Henny & Coke]

As much as the early season praise of MCW’s good play may now seem somewhat unwarranted/over-the-top, it’s most likely that the current criticism of his recent poorer play may also seem somewhat unwarranted/over-the-top at some point in the future as well. So, in the effort of providing a snapshot of where the stats currently stand for MCW, these are the categories in which he currently ranks within the top 20 as compared to other Big East teams (full season stats):

Total Assists:
1.) MCW – 222
2.) Eric Atkins (ND) – 167

Assists/Game:
1.) MCW – 7.9
2.) Anthony Collins (SFL) – 6.4

Assist %: (An estimate of the percentage of teammate field goals a player assisted while he was on the floor.)
1.) Anthony Collins (SFL) – 42.6
2.) MCW – 41.8

Total Steals:
1.) MCW – 82
2.) Edwin Fuquan (SH) – 72

Steals/Game:
1.) MCW – 2.9
2.) Edwin Fuquan (SH) – 2.5

Steal %: (An estimate of the percentage of opponent possessions that end with a steal by the player while he was on the floor.)
1.) MCW – 5.1
2.) Edwin Fuquan (SH) – 4.8

Turnovers:
1.) MCW – 97
2.) Tom Maayan (SH) – 88

Turnover %: (An estimate of turnovers per 100 plays.)
MCW not in top 20

Player Effieiency Rating:
13.) MCW – 22.6
Only SU player above MCW is Southerland (ranks #5 at 25.5)

Points Produced: (An estimate of the player's offensive points produced.)
8.) MCW – 436
Top SU player in this category, although Triche ranks right below him at #9 with 405.

Points Produced/Game:
7.) MCW – 15.6
Top SU player in this category, although Triche ranks #12 with 14.5.

Offensive Rating: (An estimate of points scored (for teams) or points produced (for players) per 100 possessions.)
18.) MCW – 107.8
SU ranks in this category: 4.) Southerland 125.3, 9.) CJ Fair 119.6, 14.) Brandon Triche 109.8

Offensive Win Shares: (An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player due to his offense.)
MCW not in top 20
SU ranks in this category: 9.) CJ Fair 2.3, 11.) Southerland 2.1

Defensive Rating: (An estimate of points allowed per 100 possessions.)
8.) MCW – 86.8
Top SU player in this category, although Southerland ranks #10 with 87.9, Christmas ranks #16 with 89.1, and CJ Fair ranks #19 with 90.2

Defensive Win Shares: (An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player due to his defense.)
3.) MCW – 3.9
Top SU player in this category, although CJ Fair ranks #8 with 2.9, and Christmas ranks #9 with 2.8

Win Shares: (An estimate of the number of wins contributed by a player due to his offense and defense.)
7.) MCW – 4.8
Only SU player above MCW is CJ Fair (ranks #5 at 5.2)

http://www.sports-reference.com/cbb/conferences/big-east/2013-leaders.html

 

[Melancer46]

Why do people say he doesn't care or that he defers to MCW? I haven't seen evidence of either, not that I'm completely sure what you mean by "defer". Did you see BT when he fouled out and went to the sideline? He obviously cares - he just doesn't show it on his face.

I honestly think they all care. I'm just saying that I think it's unfair for people to imply that MCW doesn't care for reasons that I think are BS when you can make up reasons to argue that the others care just as little.

And regarding the deferring, I'm talking about how Triche and Fair seem content with letting MCW handle the ball down the stretch, or in Fairs case, not giving him the ball at all.

 

[NKR1978]

I go back and forth on this, but 2002 had a couple bright spots (in addition to our late comebacks to beat Wake and Michigan State to win the NIT, which was flat-out fun).

First, just like you say about Scoop and Rick, we got to watch Forth, Pace, and Hakim grow up. So that was cool.

And Shumpert and Duany were likeable veterans (and good players). Unfortunately, 2008 didn't have any of those. One could have hoped for Onuaku to step into a leadership role, but that was not in him (he was very green for a third-year guy, anyway).

I'm happy to be in the minority re: 2008. I don't buy that it was necessary for Donte to play the way he did; plenty of thin teams have gotten by with a more disciplined approach and without 30-footers by the athletic 6'10" kid. They showed us some fun and they also had stretches of really dumb and rudderless play. In the end, there was a reason that the coaching staff encouraged the core of that team to leave eligibility on the table over the next three seasons and we started assembling top-five teams again.

You're right, the 02 team boiled down to Williams.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

 

[OttoMets]

You're right, the 02 team boiled down to Williams.

Sent from my HTC6435LVW using Tapatalk 2

Yep, one-man wrecking crew.

 

[KaiserUEO]

I don't think MCW is auditioning. I just don't think he's that good.

Don't get me wrong, he's a pretty good player--just not the transcendent talent some were predicting early on. He's a lousy offensive player, and he does very little to make his teammates better--especially in games like yesterday where he has difficulty penetrating. Leaves his feet with nowhere to go and nobody to pass to, and commits a ton of unforced turnovers.

Other than that, how'd you enjoy the play Mrs. Lincoln?

I know that somebody is going to call me out for that assessment of MCW, but it seems pretty accurate to me. I do not believe that he is "auditioning," however--I think he is legitimately trying to make plays but just doesn't have the capability to do some of the stuff he's trying to do at this stage of his developmental curve.

i agree. and if triche was playing better, JB should sit MCWs arse for a bit.

 

[Chip]

I do think the answer is on the bench. Sometimes 'the answer' is simply to remind players they are accountable for their often mind-boggingly poor decisions on the court.

I have to believe that somewhere on that bench is a less skilled player whom is practicing everyday with the type of grit and determination and focus we want our starters to play with.

Triche's lazy loose ball attempt, and Carter's jump 1st pass second mistakes, should earn them moments of reflection next to JB. Him mouthing 'WOW' teaches them nothing. It results in hollow Twitter apologies.

You gotta make them understand again the level of intensity required to achieve what I hope they want to achieve.

With guys like Melo, Wallace, and Coleman, I don't mind the green light / no consequences system. With these marginal, paper stars, not so much.

So put in Cooney and a walk on, so MCW and Triche can get a message? You don't think losing these games is providing that message?

I guess if we're going to lose anyway, then why not. But I just doubt it solves anything. I really doubt that, in the end, it makes anyone here feel better.

 

[Texas Otto]

I wish Ennis was here now MCW is getting worse as the season progresses. Turrible just Turrible!

 

[orangecuse]

I wish Ennis was here now MCW is getting worse as the season progresses. Turrible just Turrible!

I don't think he has necessarily gotten worse as much as the fact that the competition has gotten much more difficult deeper into BE play, and, therefore, exposing his obvious weaknesses...

 

[Texas Otto]

I don't think he has necessarily gotten worse as much as the fact that the competition has gotten much more difficult deeper into BE play, and, therefore, exposing his obvious weaknesses...

Okay I will give you that point and revise my comment to he hasn't improved at all this season. I still think he is an NBA bust someone is going to waste allot of money on the kid.

 

[swish7]

So put in Cooney and a walk on, so MCW and Triche can get a message? You don't think losing these games is providing that message?

I guess if we're going to lose anyway, then why not. But I just doubt it solves anything. I really doubt that, in the end, it makes anyone here feel better.

I certainly cannot guarantee it would solve anything. 2 minutes on the bench here and there as needed, might send a better message, "hey, you're playing like arse, and soft, but please stay in and try harder!". Week after week.

If there was a walkon whom could skin his elbows out there a little bit, I'd take that for a couple minutes, over a high skilled player suffering from malaise, or inner demons, or whatever.