should the NCAA sanction penn state???.

[billsin01]

I agree. Unless they broke NCAA rules in the course of all the awful things that were done, the NCAA should not be involved.

Really? I'm shocked this is even a debate. I'm fairly certain systematic rape and, at the very least, relatively little action to stop it within the athletic department would seem to be the very definition of "lack of institutional control" no?

It really seems to me the bigger sports/ncaa-related issue here (so obviously it pales in comparison to the legal/emotional issues surrounding the case) is that an NCAA athletic department put it's image above it's moral duty to at least put forth serious, serious effort in potentially outing a serial child rapist. That is absolutely an NCAA issue.

Listen, I never hated Penn State and still don't but I really don't think there's a single penalty that I would deem too harsh in this instance. They can take away all of JoePa's wins and when someone complains they could respond with, "Oh, you mean the guy who knew child rape was happening but just wasn't sure what to do about it? You're worried about his sugar bowl win? Really?"

 

[billsin01]

I have to go with Phat on this one. I don't see this as NCAA jurisdiction.

Isn't this the excuse all the coaches and athletic department personnel used to defend turning a blind eye to the child rape? "Well, we told campus police so ..."

 

[billsin01]

I don't agree with that opinion at all.

Yes, it is very much a criminal case and individuals will be punished. But it isn't a coach committing DWI, or an assault, or rape, or molestation alone. Yes, Sandusky committed the crimes but when people in power such as the head coach, the AD, the President, the security official, etc, stepped in and chose not to contact the proper authorities, they very much made the school and the athletic department very much part of this whole thing. They chose to cover up and turn a blind eye to a systemic issue and deal with it on their own (which they did poorly). This is not a single coach alone committing a crime, it is an institution that chose to be part of the whole sordid thing. Sure, if Coach ABC, gets a DWI or attacks someone, it isn't the schools fault, but this is something totally different. It makes PedSt the university and the athletic department culpable. The NCAA manual discusses moral and ethics and in my opinion, this can very easily fall under that. The institution very much deserves not only individual criminal prosecutions but also NCAA penalties. The crimes PedSt committed aren't far less than what Sandusky committed. He did the shooting, they drove the get away car and then gave him an alibi.

Yeah, I really view this from the exact opposite position of many on this board -- here is an opportunity for the NCAA to actually do something that matters. Instead of BS clearing house issues and random non-issues that they can't control anyway (PEDs, recruiting violations, etc.) here is an issue where a program demonstrated -- FOR YEARS -- the type of behavior the NCAA swears it abhors. Not only that, it was so egregious that it actually became a legal issue and the guy got punished. If the NCAA doesn't step in here and say, "well, maybe PSU should have tried a smidge harder to keep already disadvantaged youths from being subjected to repeated abuse." then when hell would they step in? To sanction a school/athlete for going to a bbq at an agent's house? Please.

 

[Orangepace]

One could argue that because the perpetrator was a long-standing senior coach using athletic department facilities for some of the crimes and various members of the athletics department (including the head coach) being aware of things going on and failed to act, allowing the illegal activities to continue.

I'm not saying the NCAA should or shouldn't do anything, just that valid arguments can be made for either course of action. I'm glad I'm not the one who has to make the decision.

Disagree... loosely held connection to focus any rules infractions specifically to the AD... this is a school issue, not athletics.. Not sure why that doesn't make sense to some around here.

 

[Orangepace]

why did ohio state get sanctions for selling stuff for tatoos?because tressel knew???and did nothing?what did joepa know and for how many years.the IMPACT on the program lies in the fact that they knew about all this and did nothing IN ORDER to PROTECT THE PROGRAM in a morally unacceptable and illegal manor. from the highest level at the university.that is totally gross misconduct and LACK OF INSTITUTIONAL CONTROL. a FELONY coverup that directly involves the HEAD FOOTBALL COACH AND MAYBE OTHER COACHES.THESE FOLKS MAKE NIXON LOOK LIKE A BUSH LEAGER(SP).(AND I LIKED NIXON)i believe that when this done there are folks at the state govt level that were aware of this and the missing da knew something as well

Still don't see the link other than a few coaches knew of it... the Ohio St infractions benefited the players because they were selling athletic gear and rings and trophies... again.. this benefited the athletics program.

 

[billsin01]

Disagree... loosely held connection to focus any rules infractions specifically to the AD... this is a school issue, not athletics.. Not sure why that doesn't make sense to some around here.

Serial child rape by a member of the coaching staff, witnessed by another member of the coaching staff in the athletic facilities and then reported to every senior member of the athletics department and coaching staff followed by by minimal effort to stop it ... and still associating with the charity that essentially worked as the cover for said child rapist. That would seem like an athletics issue.

 

[billsin01]

Still don't see the link other than a few coaches knew of it... the Ohio St infractions benefited the players because they were selling athletic gear and rings and trophies... again.. this benefited the athletics program.

I would say there's a pretty clear benefit to a football program not being associtated with a nationally notorious child molester. In fact, I'd venture a guess to say more than one member of the coaching staff/athletics department said and/or thought at one time, "You know, we'd rather the entire world didn't find out what a perv GS is. It might be better if he simply remained a revered defensive coordinator and philanthropist."

 

[javadoc]

Disagree... loosely held connection to focus any rules infractions specifically to the AD... this is a school issue, not athletics.. Not sure why that doesn't make sense to some around here.

The NCAA bylaws contain at least one clause that requires member institutions to act affirmatively to uphold the highest standards, provide a positive environment for the growth and development of student athletes, etc.

It also defines the concept of Institutional Control, and defines the President and AD as the ultimately responsible parties for ensuring that said control is maintained.

It sure sounds like Penn State violated both of those clauses flagrantly, and in a case that involves the rape of children. If any of the bylaws - including all those piddling little bits of nonsense dealing with players earning $100 - are enforceable and meaningful, then the ones in question here are also.

The issue was covered up to protect the football program, due to its status and cultural importance to the University. It is an Athletics issue, because the coverup stemmed from the nature of the football program in and of itself. The PSU Administration, including the persons charged by the bylaws with acting to maintain a safe and etc. environment, chose not to act.

Do you think those bylaws should not be enforced?

 

[Orangepace]

Serial child rape by a member of the coaching staff, witnessed by another member of the coaching staff in the athletic facilities and then reported to every senior member of the athletics department and coaching staff followed by by minimal effort to stop it ... and still associating with the charity that essentially worked as the cover for said child rapist. That would seem like an athletics issue.

Sandusky was unemployed in 2001... how is he a member of the coaching staff at that time exactly?

 

[Orangepace]

I would say there's a pretty clear benefit to a football program not being associtated with a nationally notorious child molester. In fact, I'd venture a guess to say more than one member of the coaching staff/athletics department said and/or thought at one time, "You know, we'd rather the entire world didn't find out what a perv GS is. It might be better if he simply remained a revered defensive coordinator and philanthropist."

Tough to really argue that point... they keep getting top quality recruits and most have said here that it'd have had a short-term minimal effect from the public opinion standpoint..

I feel like some here think I am defending Sandusky... let me be clear.. he's a worthless piece of and I hope he lives for the next 30 years in prison in solitary confinement. To kill this bastard and rid him of his demons would be unfair to the victims...

That said.. I don't see how the athletics department should be the focus of any sanctions... this was the admins at the University. Lack of institutional control is definitely apparent, however, it's not related to athletics.. this did not benefit athletics in the least.

 

[PhatOrange]

The NCAA bylaws contain at least one clause that requires member institutions to act affirmatively to uphold the highest standards, provide a positive environment for the growth and development of student athletes, etc.

It also defines the concept of Institutional Control, and defines the President and AD as the ultimately responsible parties for ensuring that said control is maintained.

It sure sounds like Penn State violated both of those clauses flagrantly, and in a case that involves the rape of children. If any of the bylaws - including all those piddling little bits of nonsense dealing with players earning $100 - are enforceable and meaningful, then the ones in question here are also.

The issue was covered up to protect the football program, due to its status and cultural importance to the University. It is an Athletics issue, because the coverup stemmed from the nature of the football program in and of itself. The PSU Administration, including the persons charged by the bylaws with acting to maintain a safe and etc. environment, chose not to act.

Do you think those bylaws should not be enforced?

All those bylaws though pertain to student athletes.

 

[Orangepace]

The NCAA bylaws contain at least one clause that requires member institutions to act affirmatively to uphold the highest standards, provide a positive environment for the growth and development of student athletes, etc.

It also defines the concept of Institutional Control, and defines the President and AD as the ultimately responsible parties for ensuring that said control is maintained.

It sure sounds like Penn State violated both of those clauses flagrantly, and in a case that involves the rape of children. If any of the bylaws - including all those piddling little bits of nonsense dealing with players earning $100 - are enforceable and meaningful, then the ones in question here are also.

The issue was covered up to protect the football program, due to its status and cultural importance to the University. It is an Athletics issue, because the coverup stemmed from the nature of the football program in and of itself. The PSU Administration, including the persons charged by the bylaws with acting to maintain a safe and etc. environment, chose not to act.

Do you think those bylaws should not be enforced?

I think the bylaws should be enforced.. never said they shouldn't.. Just saying that the idea of death penalty for the football program as the focus of the sanctions would make me as an educated person (no lawyer) say, wait a minute.. this had nothing to do wtih the football program.. A sick predator was raping children on campus. Admins were alerted and covered it up. Whether this was a professor or former coach shouldn't factor in because it is merely fodder.. The thought of directing the penalties to the sports program this former coach hailed from is just plain idiotic because it didn't benefit said program at all. Penn St as an educational institution should be penalized in entirety... You can't put this on the football team..

 

[javadoc]

All those bylaws though pertain to student athletes.

A child rapist hanging out in the facilities? Now you have student athletes (potentially) stumbling on a criminal act, having to face an ongoing coverup when they step forward, and what if there is whispering around campus that something is funny with that old guy who used to coach here and still lurks? The bylaws are on point, even for the student athletes.

 

[javadoc]

You can't put this on the football team..

Yes you can. The coverup occurred precisely because it involved the football program. Do you dispute that?

There is material benefit to the football program from the coverup, too, but there is for sure an argument about its degree. It might be something as small as landing 10 recruits who would otherwise not have gone there over a period of several years, had they known.

I haven't come down on what I think the sanction should be, but it should be primarily against the football program. The program must be taken down a notch. The goal is to destroy enough of the institutional and cultural attitudes that even make it a consideration to cover up such crimes to protect the football program.

The NCAA must say, "If you believed (believe, in all likelihood) that your football program is more important than the lives of these victims - if your priorities are that evil and inhuman - that mindset must be destroyed." The NCAA is positioned to do that through its authority over the athletics programs. Dropping a firewall between the NCAA and the PSU football program, as you are advocating, is the recipe for allowing that culture to persist.

 

[SU2NASA]

If Sandusky was a janitor, does this situation happen?

Nope.

The coverup was for the sake of the football program. The NCAA should come down on Penn State harder than any other program in the history of college sports.

 

[dollarbill44]

All those bylaws though pertain to student athletes.

I don't think the NCAA bylaws only pertain to student athletes. In fact, I'm pretty sure they do not.

 

[JD]

So you want to punish the players and the new coaching staff who had nothing to do with this for something that an ex-coach did seven years ago. It is incredibly unfair to the student athletes who are in the program now. Seems to me that the civil courts will take care of making the administration pay for not reporting suspected abuse.

 

[All4SU]

Isn't this the excuse all the coaches and athletic department personnel used to defend turning a blind eye t o the child rape? "Well, we told campus police so ..."

I certainly don't think so. And I hope you're not accusing me of being indifferent to "child rape." I think that PSU officials should have the book thrown at them.

I just think that the NCAA deals with athletics. To me, this is not an athletics issue. If Sandusky was embezzling funds and using the money to buy prostitutes, and JP covered up for him, would it be an NCAA issue? I don't think so. If the players are getting money to buy prostitutes it becomes an NCAA issue. Yes, PSU protected their image, and Paterno protected his and his program's reputations. I hope that potential players decline scholarship offers from PSU. I hope that PSU athletics supporters close their checkbooks.

 

[PhatOrange]

I certainly don't think so. And I hope you're not accusing me of being indifferent to "child rape." I think that PSU officials should have the book thrown at them.

I just think that the NCAA deals with athletics. To me, this is not an athletics issue. If Sandusky was embezzling funds and using the money to buy prostitutes, and JP covered up for him, would it be an NCAA issue? I don't think so. If the players are getting money to buy prostitutes it becomes an NCAA issue. Yes, PSU protected their image, and Paterno protected his and his program's reputations. I hope that potential players decline scholarship offers from PSU. I hope that PSU athletics supporters close their checkbooks.

Yes agreed. This is the way I see it as well.

 

[NKR1978]

So you want to punish the players and the new coaching staff who had nothing to do with this for something that an ex-coach did seven years ago. It is incredibly unfair to the student athletes who are in the program now. Seems to me that the civil courts will take care of making the administration pay for not reporting suspected abuse.

The student athletes can transfer without penalty and the coaches still have contracts that will allow them to be paid. There is no fundamental right to play football at Ped State.

And this would serve as a deterrent against future morally bankrupt and out of control football coaches and administrators. Unfortunately, there are consequences to actions. Actions taken with the SOLE purpose of protecting the football program should have the effect of severely damaging the football program.

Sent from my ADR6400L using Tapatalk 2

 

[Orangepace]

I certainly don't think so. And I hope you're not accusing me of being indifferent to "child rape." I think that PSU officials should have the book thrown at them.

I just think that the NCAA deals with athletics. To me, this is not an athletics issue. If Sandusky was embezzling funds and using the money to buy prostitutes, and JP covered up for him, would it be an NCAA issue? I don't think so. If the players are getting money to buy prostitutes it becomes an NCAA issue. Yes, PSU protected their image, and Paterno protected his and his program's reputations. I hope that potential players decline scholarship offers from PSU. I hope that PSU athletics supporters close their checkbooks.

this. Well stated.

 

[PhatOrange]

I don't think the NCAA bylaws only pertain to student athletes. In fact, I'm pretty sure they do not.

To me the NCAA and the rule book deals with athletics. I don’t know this for a fact so I won’t argue it.

But it makes no sense to me that the NCAA could sanction a school for non-athletic transgressions.

While this happened in the athletic department I don't believe the NCAA has any grounds to sanction Penn State.

 

[billsin01]

I certainly don't think so. And I hope you're not accusing me of being indifferent to "child rape." I think that PSU officials should have the book thrown at them.

I just think that the NCAA deals with athletics. To me, this is not an athletics issue. If Sandusky was embezzling funds and using the money to buy prostitutes, and JP covered up for him, would it be an NCAA issue? I don't think so. If the players are getting money to buy prostitutes it becomes an NCAA issue. Yes, PSU protected their image, and Paterno protected his and his program's reputations. I hope that potential players decline scholarship offers from PSU. I hope that PSU athletics supporters close their checkbooks.

No, I'm not insinuating that you are indifferent to it. My point was more that saying "sorry, not my jurisdiction" is a sorry excuse for the governing body of a sports league (essentially what the ncaa is) not doing anything about a program that clearly knew something was going on, took some half measures to try to distance itself from it and did little to force any sort of truly comprehensive investigation into the activities. And that's assuming there wasn't a coverup, which of course everyone who has half a brain realizes likely happened.

If the NCAA truly believes that athletics play a part in the well-rounded development of young men and women and they truly believe that's the mission of their athletics programs (I sincerely doubt this is true, by the way) then leveling sanctions against a program that didn't simply turn a blind eye to bad behavior (kids at miami getting cash for abortions, etc) but actively participated (if only by negligence) in the activities of a serial rapist, then what role do they actually fill? I mean, this was done in the football facilities and witnessed by an assistant coach and reported to the head coach AND (I'm out of breath from back-to-back run-on sentences) was perpetrated by an assistant coach. The only way it could get more damning for the football team is if it was part of the halftime show.

 

[billsin01]

While this happened in the athletic department I don't believe the NCAA has any grounds to sanction Penn State.

Here's my problem with this: if the NCAA follows this logic it not only suggests to programs that they aren't going to be punished for not fulfilling their moral obligations but that they are in fact encouraging them to keep quiet. 45 counts of child rape later the NCAA is saying, "Yup, business as usual at Penn State!" Insane.

And, as I mentioned before, isn't it the NCAA who will tell us about character development of young men and women? Isn't that their basic mission (supposedly)? Wouldn't Penn State's actions run directly counter to that stated mission?

 

[JD]

Andy Staples has a good take on the situation.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/20...te-jerry-sandusky-ncaa/index.html?eref=sircrc