So is the bar set too high or too low? | Syracusefan.com

So is the bar set too high or too low?

OttoinGrotto

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I'm in the camp that says the bar for the football program is set too low. I just don't buy that we play poorly now because Greg Robinson was the worst football coach of all time, and we should be happy that our coach is not the worst football coach of all time.

Others say the bar fans have is set too high. Given the deficiencies of the program we're getting just about all we can reasonably expect.

So, what is it? My problem with the idea that the bar is too low is that I think the things fans are asking for are not unreasonable. It isn't that hard to field a competent offense. Not that hard to teach tackling technique.
 
low

as a fan base most have been beat down enough to give up-had a glimmer last year-this year was a backwards year for sure-
team has been bad from day one-hasnt improved a lick,if anything regressed
 
The bar has to get higher every year. We should be at worst 3rd in our division in the ACC with an ACC championship game appearance 3 times a decade.

Year 3 in the Marrone area I think the bar is acceptable. Two years ago I'd have done some pretty extreme things for 5-4. I expect to.challenge for a bcs bid next year and to be more consistent.

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So if the Bar is 2 low where will the Super Recruiter come from? The only way to Super Recruit is to cheat. Believe it or not Rutgers/UCONN/Buffallo/ and the MAC Conference has diluted the talent pool. With Great Players you can be at least .500% with a lousy Coach. See Gill and Holtz this year those 2 were the darlings of this Board for SU's next HC.
 
Well can you define where the bar is actually set right now? I'm not sure that I can.

Context does matter. SU was 26-55 in the seven years before Marrone took over. Read that again:

26-55

That's just horrrible. So speaking at a macro-level, to be 17-17 under Marrone is, well, a hella lot better than 26-55.

Let's assume that we eek out one more win and get to a bowl. Hell let's assume we lose that bowl game and we finish 6-7. Going into year 4, with Marrone how having his full recruiting classes moving into their junior season, that's the point when I think we should start inching this mythical bar higher. I've long felt that 8 wins is a reasonable bar for SU (once we've pulled ourselves out of the muck of the late P era/GumpRob error). Not that we should be firing coaches for falling below that bar for a season or two. But we've hit that bar so many times in the past that it's not unreasonable to set that as an "expectation".

So yeah, as judged by our expectations from 1988-2004 I'd say the bar may be set low. But I think we're a season away from raising it. I'm fine with that.
 
Well can you define where the bar is actually set right now? I'm not sure that I can.

Context does matter. SU was 26-55 in the seven years before Marrone took over. Read that again:

26-55

That's just horrrible. So speaking at a macro-level, to be 17-17 under Marrone is, well, a hella lot better than 26-55.

Let's assume that we eek out one more win and get to a bowl. Hell let's assume we lose that bowl game and we finish 6-7. Going into year 4, with Marrone how having his full recruiting classes moving into their junior season, that's the point when I think we should start inching this mythical bar higher. I've long felt that 8 wins is a reasonable bar for SU (once we've pulled ourselves out of the muck of the late P era/GumpRob error). Not that we should be firing coaches for falling below that bar for a season or two. But we've hit that bar so many times in the past that it's not unreasonable to set that as an "expectation".

So yeah, as judged by our expectations from 1988-2004 I'd say the bar may be set low. But I think we're a season away from raising it. I'm fine with that.

Very good post.
 
I don't want to get into this too much and I have made my feelings on Marrone known and I believe them to be true but people need to remember the Big East conference has gotten worse every year the last 8 years, hell when GROB was coaching you had coaches like Petrino, Dantonio, B Kelly, Rich Rod whose program should have played in the national title game, Pitt beat the tar out of us every year and just out talented us. Edsall, Rutgers had their better years, Even USF was a more formiddable opponent,

Lets just say the 2006-2007 version of the Big East was far superior than this mess as well
 
Well can you define where the bar is actually set right now? I'm not sure that I can.

Context does matter. SU was 26-55 in the seven years before Marrone took over. Read that again:

26-55

That's just horrrible. So speaking at a macro-level, to be 17-17 under Marrone is, well, a hella lot better than 26-55.

Let's assume that we eek out one more win and get to a bowl. Hell let's assume we lose that bowl game and we finish 6-7. Going into year 4, with Marrone how having his full recruiting classes moving into their junior season, that's the point when I think we should start inching this mythical bar higher. I've long felt that 8 wins is a reasonable bar for SU (once we've pulled ourselves out of the muck of the late P era/GumpRob error). Not that we should be firing coaches for falling below that bar for a season or two. But we've hit that bar so many times in the past that it's not unreasonable to set that as an "expectation".

So yeah, as judged by our expectations from 1988-2004 I'd say the bar may be set low. But I think we're a season away from raising it. I'm fine with that.

Well put
 
Wow, me, Go and RF all in agreement.

Run for your lives! The apocalypse is upon us!!!

;)

Seriously, I've been VERY disappointed with the results against Rutgers, Louisville and UConn. Very.

But I mean, what are then options? Fire Marrone? Come on, let's be serious, that's just stupid. Make changes to the staff? Could happen, Marrone has shown that he's perfectly willing to do that from the previous two off-seasons, so we'll wait and see what happens. Improve our talent? Well of course, but it ain't happening mid-season, so that's a wait-and-see thing too.

I guess I'm just resigned to the fact that this team is flawed and horribly inconsistent (although we've been more consistently bad than good, which is troubling). There's really nothing "we" can do but hope for the best the next 3 games and then evaluate when it's all over. There's not a lot of reason to be optimistic given our last 2 Novembers, but stranger things have happened.

No matter what, I think next year is really important. Critically important. Again, not fireable important, but year four of a rebuild should start to reveal some direction. Even season #4 of the much-compared-to Coach Mac era was when many say they began to see things taking root (we beat #1 Nebraska that year, after all).
 
No matter what, I think next year is really important. Critically important. Again, not fireable important, but year four of a rebuild should start to reveal some direction. Even season #4 of the much-compared-to Coach Mac era was when many say they began to see things taking root (we beat #1 Nebraska that year, after all).
Here's what scares me: Nassib's clearly our best option. That's unlikely to change next season. If the offense we have is tailored to Nassib, we're one more year out from seeing that change.
 
Well can you define where the bar is actually set right now? I'm not sure that I can.

Context does matter. SU was 26-55 in the seven years before Marrone took over. Read that again:

26-55

That's just horrrible. So speaking at a macro-level, to be 17-17 under Marrone is, well, a hella lot better than 26-55.

Let's assume that we eek out one more win and get to a bowl. Hell let's assume we lose that bowl game and we finish 6-7. Going into year 4, with Marrone how having his full recruiting classes moving into their junior season, that's the point when I think we should start inching this mythical bar higher. I've long felt that 8 wins is a reasonable bar for SU (once we've pulled ourselves out of the muck of the late P era/GumpRob error). Not that we should be firing coaches for falling below that bar for a season or two. But we've hit that bar so many times in the past that it's not unreasonable to set that as an "expectation".

So yeah, as judged by our expectations from 1988-2004 I'd say the bar may be set low. But I think we're a season away from raising it. I'm fine with that.

Agree with this. The bar is adjustable. Right now, the bar is .500 land. We jumped over it last year and will probably be about that this year. As Marrone gets his own players in place, the bar will rightly be raised. In my opinion, that starts in year 4 when almost all of the Grob guys are out and his own guys are in. After that, 8 wins for a school like us is a good bar. Of course, sprinkled in we need some conference titles etc.
 
Here's what scares me: Nassib's clearly our best option. That's unlikely to change next season. If the offense we have is tailored to Nassib, we're one more year out from seeing that change.

With Nassib, it is what it is. He's wildly inconsistent, to the point that he's even inconsistent within a game between drives or halves. It has to be incredibly frustrating for an OC when your 1A option looks like Tom Brady on his good days (or drives) and Greg Brady on his bad days (or drives). And there's no knowing which day (or drive) is going to be good or bad. It's a lot easier to be a competent OC when your players are consistent, and although I believe that inconsistency can be improved through practice and preparation, that only takes it to a point - if you're inconsistent, you're going to be inconsistent unfortunately.

All that considered, he is the best option right now, whether we like it or not, and he is what we have to work with. QB is the most important position on the team and it's a position that has not been strongly addressed through recruiting for about the past 8-10 years, maybe longer. When speaking of depth, people like to bring up "well Marrone ran off this guy and this guy and look at what he's doing at Monmouth" or wherever they ended up. The depth and talent at the most critical position on the team had nothing to do with Marrone decisions - this is what he was left with. And all things considered, he's done a good job with what he's had - bringing in Paulus, giving Nassib time to understudy, and attempting to recruit more explosive, dual threat type QB's that will help open the offense up - Kinder, Hunt, Miller and Broyld. I have to think that 1 of these 4 is the heir apparent (or maybe hope lol).

For me, 8-5 with a bowl win in year 3 (not taking into account conference performance) is more than acceptable when considering the overhaul this program needed. Will we get there? We have to go 2-1 over the next 3 and win the bowl, and that may be a lot to ask considering how inconsistent the team has been.
 
With Nassib, it is what it is. He's wildly inconsistent, to the point that he's even inconsistent within a game between drives or halves. It has to be incredibly frustrating for an OC when your 1A option looks like Tom Brady on his good days (or drives) and Greg Brady on his bad days (or drives). And there's no knowing which day (or drive) is going to be good or bad. It's a lot easier to be a competent OC when your players are consistent, and although I believe that inconsistency can be improved through practice and preparation, that only takes it to a point - if you're inconsistent, you're going to be inconsistent unfortunately.

All that considered, he is the best option right now, whether we like it or not, and he is what we have to work with. QB is the most important position on the team and it's a position that has not been strongly addressed through recruiting for about the past 8-10 years, maybe longer. When speaking of depth, people like to bring up "well Marrone ran off this guy and this guy and look at what he's doing at Monmouth" or wherever they ended up. The depth and talent at the most critical position on the team had nothing to do with Marrone decisions - this is what he was left with. And all things considered, he's done a good job with what he's had - bringing in Paulus, giving Nassib time to understudy, and attempting to recruit more explosive, dual threat type QB's that will help open the offense up - Kinder, Hunt, Miller and Broyld. I have to think that 1 of these 4 is the heir apparent (or maybe hope lol).

For me, 8-5 with a bowl win in year 3 (not taking into account conference performance) is more than acceptable when considering the overhaul this program needed. Will we get there? We have to go 2-1 over the next 3 and win the bowl, and that may be a lot to ask considering how inconsistent the team has been.
I actually don't have a problem with Nassib as the QB (leave it alone, Milly). My problem is more that if there's a vision for the offense that isn't what we're doing right now, we should be running it for better or worse.
 
I actually don't have a problem with Nassib as the QB (leave it alone, Milly). My problem is more that if there's a vision for the offense that isn't what we're doing right now, we should be running it for better or worse.
he doesn't think nassib can run his vision of the offense.

and if his vision of the offense is for a QB to complete a pass downfield, he would be right.

his vision for the offense takes a back seat to whiteknuckling to 6 wins. if he thinks his best chance for that is slants and rollouts, that's what he'll do. to him, crappy bowl games matter more right now that demonstrating his offense

the vision for the offense needs to show up next year. with a new qb
 
I hear you - my only concern is that the worse that may come from running Marrone's vision of the offense may be far worse than what we're seeing now. If we learned anything from the GROB disaster, it's to use an offensive system that plays to the strengths of the players you have, not the players that you hope to have.
 
he doesn't think nassib can run his vision of the offense.

and if his vision of the offense is for a QB to complete a pass downfield, he would be right.

his vision for the offense takes a back seat to whiteknuckling to 6 wins. if he thinks his best chance for that is slants and rollouts, that's what he'll do. to him, crappy bowl games matter more right now that demonstrating his offense

the vision for the offense needs to show up next year. with a new qb
I doubt it shows up next year - after Nassib graduates would be my bet.
 
he doesn't think nassib can run his vision of the offense.

his vision for the offense takes a back seat to whiteknuckling to 6 wins. if he thinks his best chance for that is slants and rollouts, that's what he'll do. to him, crappy bowl games matter more right now that demonstrating his offense

the vision for the offense needs to show up next year. with a new qb
I told you to leave this alone.

Doesn't matter if Nassib can run his version of the offense. How much worse could it be than what we're seeing now? Just run the damn thing.

You and I both know we're not seeing a new QB next season.
 
to him, crappy bowl games matter more right now that demonstrating his offense

I'm not entirely sure Marrone is wrong about that, though. I mean ultimately this is all about recruiting better, right? Because we all know that SU won't clear any level higher bar if we don't keep bringing more athletically gifted kids into the program.

I suppose there are four ways to do that: (1) demonstrate some basic level of success (e.g. make it to crappy bowl games); (2) showcase your potentially exciting schemes (e.g. run the system of the future today!); (3) hire crazily charismatic assistants who can sell smoke and mirrors (e.g. Rutgers); (4) cheat (e.g. the SEC). Or some combo of those, of course.

Basically Marrone thinks that eeking out a couple of bowl appearances is more effective at attracting recruits than winning 3-4 games while developing his future system. I think there's evidence of both approaches working.
 
Here's what scares me: Nassib's clearly our best option. That's unlikely to change next season. If the offense we have is tailored to Nassib, we're one more year out from seeing that change.
Wow, me, Go and RF all in agreement.

Run for your lives! The apocalypse is upon us!!!

;)

Seriously, I've been VERY disappointed with the results against Rutgers, Louisville and UConn. Very.

But I mean, what are then options? Fire Marrone? Come on, let's be serious, that's just stupid. Make changes to the staff? Could happen, Marrone has shown that he's perfectly willing to do that from the previous two off-seasons, so we'll wait and see what happens. Improve our talent? Well of course, but it ain't happening mid-season, so that's a wait-and-see thing too.

I guess I'm just resigned to the fact that this team is flawed and horribly inconsistent (although we've been more consistently bad than good, which is troubling). There's really nothing "we" can do but hope for the best the next 3 games and then evaluate when it's all over. There's not a lot of reason to be optimistic given our last 2 Novembers, but stranger things have happened.

No matter what, I think next year is really important. Critically important. Again, not fireable important, but year four of a rebuild should start to reveal some direction. Even season #4 of the much-compared-to Coach Mac era was when many say they began to see things taking root (we beat #1 Nebraska that year, after all).

Your post and CIL's both pull together a lot of the stuff I've been writing as well. The bar today is not where I would expect it to be next year or after.
 
Your post and CIL's both pull together a lot of the stuff I've been writing as well. The bar today is not where I would expect it to be next year or after.

Exactly
 
i believe right now, marrone is the problem. to deliberate, to conservative players not lose---i believe he will correct this if he is not to stubborn.---kinda grow into the job. don't get me wrong he had done wonders, and appears to be stagnate at this point. does not take chances and other teams know this. the only thing that "panics"me is the lack of recruiting success. i do think that playing in certain situations when nassib is clearly off should be considered.
 
I told you to leave this alone.

Doesn't matter if Nassib can run his version of the offense. How much worse could it be than what we're seeing now? Just run the damn thing.

You and I both know we're not seeing a new QB next season.
there are still offenses worse than our's. asking nassib to do more is a good way to join their ranks.

you doofuses cream your jeans over his completion percentage but then get mad that marrone doesn't let him do more than slants and rollout pitches to tight ends

how many qbs get a 3rd year starting after not cracking the top 90 the previous 2 years?
 

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