So what was Red doing all those years under JB?

[Newhouser]

I understand JB didn't delegate a lot of game day stuff to his staff. I also understand the learning curve that goes with being one seat over. What I don't understand is how a guy who has spent his whole life either playing or coaching basketball is totally inept at nearly every facet of building and coaching a team.

It just seems impossible to me.

 

[OrangeCrush22]

JB doesn’t have a glowing record of developing coaches. The assistants were always those close to him. Autry was an assistant from 2011-2023. He only had a few years to observe how a top program should be run. Most of his coaching career has been during the slide.

 

[CuseCPT]

He was learning the 2-3 zone, recruiting and playing good cop. His recruiting is the only one that is still relevant and his only passing grade.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

JB doesn’t have a glowing record of developing coaches. The assistants were always those close to him. Autry was an assistant from 2011-2023. He only had a few years to observe how a top program should be run. Most of his coaching career has been during the slide.

Red was on the staff at Virginia Tech from 2008-2011 under Seth Greenberg.

 

[djcon57]

Red was on the staff at Virginia Tech from 2008-2011 under Seth Greenberg.

Very true, for context, VT was an NIT level team these years and Greenberg was fired the year after Red left

 

[PeteCalvin]

Hmm, what was Red doing…..

Ok, the answer is

 

[Irishsecra1]

He was learning the 2-3 zone, recruiting and playing good cop. His recruiting is the only one that is still relevant and his only passing grade.

Well you would think this team could at least play a decent zone.
Nope - they cant.

 

[Eric15]

I also understand the learning curve that goes with being one seat over.

With the exception of Bernie Fine who always sat directly to JB's right if you're looking at them, none of the assistant coaches (GMac, Autry, Hopkins, etc.) ever sat next to JB during games. There were always 3-4 players inbetween JB and the assistants.

That may seem like an insignificant thing on the surface, but I actually think it speaks volumes about how prepared and groomed the assistant coaches were to potentially become head coaches.

At almost every other school, you see the head coach and the assistants huddled up close together on the bench working as a collective unit. At Duke for instance which had a similar dynamic as SU with former players as assistants, you would see Coach K talking and listening to Scheyer, Wojo, Collins, etc.

But at SU on gameday, it was 100% JB and nobody else. It was almost like the assistant coaches may have well been equipment managers.

 

[Newhouser]

With the exception of Bernie Fine who always sat directly to JB's right if you're looking at them, none of the assistant coaches (GMac, Autry, Hopkins, etc.) ever sat next to JB during games. There were always 3-4 players inbetween JB and the assistants.

That may seem like an insignificant thing on the surface, but I actually think it speaks volumes about how prepared and groomed the assistant coaches were to potentially become head coaches.

At almost every other school, you see the head coach and the assistants huddled up close together on the bench working as a collective unit. At Duke for instance which had a similar dynamic as SU with former players as assistants, you would see Coach K talking and listening to Scheyer, Wojo, Collins, etc.

But at SU on gameday, it was 100% JB and nobody else. It was almost like the assistant coaches may have well been equipment managers.

I agree the game day role was odd. That said a guy who has lived hoops his whole life and he looks lost. Not saying he should have been hired but Gmac seemed to have a plan.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

Very true, for context, VT was an NIT level team these years and Greenberg was fired the year after Red left

They went 25-9 in 2009-10, including a 2-1 run in the NIT.

When was the last time SU finished a season with only single digit losses?

 

[djcon57]

They went 25-9 in 2009-10, including a 2-1 run in the NIT.

When was the last time SU finished a season with only single digit losses?

No idea...25-9 and ended up in the NIT. Their SOS must have been pretty good.

 

[Madbiker]

Very true, for context, VT was an NIT level team these years and Greenberg was fired the year after Red left

I assume whatever Red learned about m2m defense he learned from Seth Greenberg.

 

[richmondcuse03]

With the exception of Bernie Fine who always sat directly to JB's right if you're looking at them, none of the assistant coaches (GMac, Autry, Hopkins, etc.) ever sat next to JB during games. There were always 3-4 players inbetween JB and the assistants.

That may seem like an insignificant thing on the surface, but I actually think it speaks volumes about how prepared and groomed the assistant coaches were to potentially become head coaches.

At almost every other school, you see the head coach and the assistants huddled up close together on the bench working as a collective unit. At Duke for instance which had a similar dynamic as SU with former players as assistants, you would see Coach K talking and listening to Scheyer, Wojo, Collins, etc.

But at SU on gameday, it was 100% JB and nobody else. It was almost like the assistant coaches may have well been equipment managers.

By design. JB never wanted to leave. Phenomenal coach but his many strengths were also some of his weaknesses too. Stubbornness and paranoia. It was his show. It’s also why he was so successful (until he wasn’t). Even toward the end he was a great game day coach.

The only solution is going outside the family. But we had to go within as step one.

 

[EnviroSciGuy]

GMac after a year of Red as HC:

 

[chuck]

JB doesn’t have a glowing record of developing coaches. The assistants were always those close to him. Autry was an assistant from 2011-2023. He only had a few years to observe how a top program should be run. Most of his coaching career has been during the slide.

That's not true JB had very few assistants because his assistant coaches he had stayed for a very long time example being Bernie Fine.

 

[BillSU]

I agree the game day role was odd. That said a guy who has lived hoops his whole life and he looks lost. Not saying he should have been hired but Gmac seemed to have a plan.

Totally agree. The man would have been a better choice for me. Knows basketball. The fans know him - but they wired from the other end of the bench. Unless GMAC is successful, and we are still looking for a very good coach we may never know what he could have brought to and been at SU.

 

[phil77]

Clearly he took tremendous notes over the last 2-5 years of JBs career and just continued the downward trend of the program.

 

[M2MPrinciples]

Red was on the staff at Virginia Tech from 2008-2011 under Seth Greenberg.

So the real test will be if and when Red goes on ESPN to cry about why we didn't get a tournament bid.

 

[atlanticuse]

Best players ≠ best managers/coaches.

 

[sufandu]

I agree the game day role was odd. That said a guy who has lived hoops his whole life and he looks lost.

Can't you say that about most every failed coach? Nobody gets a head coaching job without being involved in the game most of their life. Some stuff may not be teachable, either you have it or you don't.

 

[sufandu]

That's not true JB had very few assistants because his assistant coaches he had stayed for a very long time example being Bernie Fine.

Bernie Fine and even Hopkins were the exceptions. Most guys eventually moved on, many getting head coaching gigs. Most fell into obscurity because they were no better than average in that role.

 

[Sherman20]

With the exception of Bernie Fine who always sat directly to JB's right if you're looking at them, none of the assistant coaches (GMac, Autry, Hopkins, etc.) ever sat next to JB during games. There were always 3-4 players inbetween JB and the assistants.

That may seem like an insignificant thing on the surface, but I actually think it speaks volumes about how prepared and groomed the assistant coaches were to potentially become head coaches.

At almost every other school, you see the head coach and the assistants huddled up close together on the bench working as a collective unit. At Duke for instance which had a similar dynamic as SU with former players as assistants, you would see Coach K talking and listening to Scheyer, Wojo, Collins, etc.

But at SU on gameday, it was 100% JB and nobody else. It was almost like the assistant coaches may have well been equipment managers.

I agree. That was on Game Day, which is very important. JB didn’t seem to rely on his assistants much at all during games, although we didn’t see their discussions at halftime. But behind the scenes, JB gave the assistants the vital tasks to lead recruiting, develop individual players and their skills, and run practices. Not nothing. Re: game day, I remember Hop starting to take notes during games in the 2016-17 season as he prepared to take over the program (of course that didn’t happen). He was clearly trying to work on and develop the part of the head coaching job that he didn’t know as much about.

 

[BigNastyJon]

Serious question: do most head coaches delegate in-game coaching to assistants in basketball?

Seems to me the assistants are in-game cheerleaders at most schools, not sure why Boeheim gets knocked for this.

I don’t see an issue with the HC doing most/all of the in game coaching - this isn’t football and that’s what they’re paid to do.

Not intended to be a shot at assistant coaches- they do their hard work in practice, recruiting, etc.

 

[RF2044]

I think the hope was that as a former PG, he'd understand the game like a quarterback on the court, and that this inherent, tacit knowledge would translate into coaching.

Instead, what we're seeing is that he doesn't really have any special knowledge of the game. Fine AC, over his head as a HC. He runs practices the same was as JB. He utilizes the staff essentially the same was as JB. He runs the same offense [mostly] as JB. He uses the same inbounds plays as JB. Only problem is, he's not as GOOD as JB.

Which is why I think of him as a no-trick pony. There's no innovation on the offensive side, he's just doing what he knows.

I don't think this makes Adrian a "bad" coach. He's probably great in an AC role. But as the Peter Principle often demonstrates, people get promoted to their level of incompetence, and then generally struggle / fail. Most AC's across all sports don't have the chops to be head coaches. Just the way it is.

That a significant portion of our fanbase was convinced that Red had the chops was rationalization at its finest.

 

[HyattsCuse]

Best players ≠ best managers/coaches.

This. I see it in my profession. Rockstar employee, excels at everything on the job, gets promoted to a team lead and excels at that, then gets promoted to management and is horrible at it.

Being a player or an assistant coach require a different set of skills and mindset then a head coach. Even being groomed for a job isn’t a guarantee of success. Some people just don’t have the mindset for the job. Nothing wrong with that, but we need someone who can excel as a head coach.