So, where did it all go so wrong?

[kuethstheman]

One big problem now is that it's too late for JB to blow it up. Although we faked it for the last few of the 25, our problems didn't became emergencies until very late in the season. So reworking the offense didn't become a priority. It would have been nice if each player added an element to their game over the course of the season but I don't see that any have. If they had then if our bread-and-butter isn't working, we could go to a plan B. As it is now, we pretty much have to stick with the plan and hope the shots start going in.

 

[swish7]

Regarding our offense. There was one moment last night where we were attempting to set a double-screen for Cooney. Two players, one of them BMK setup the screen, and waited, and waited. Just so focused on setting that screen. Their backs to Ennis. Cooney came late. And Ennis was waiting. It was literally 3 on 5 for those moments. Which it pretty much is all the time. They had no other option but to set that screen. There was no "if Cooons is not there, do X". There was no roll afterwards. Lord our O is bad. It's painful to think about.

I'm watching dudes from Uconn and Louisville run sets, pick, pop, roll, flash, all the little stuff. Stiffs, scrubs, etc, all doing something in a system. It kills me that we have guys whom all they can do is set screens. We gotta make a showing in the dance. Lord this sucks.

 

[SWC75]

We were marginal offensive team at 25-0. We were a good defensive team but not as good as in past years. We had an unreal record of making plays at the end of games to pull them out. Injuries to Coleman, Keita, Grant and now Cooney were enough to have us losing competitive games instead of winning them and the end of game magic evaporated.

This team needs a second outside shooter and a stud forward, (which neither Fair or Grant really are), as well as a 6th man who can score.

It would also be nice if JB realized that allowing the other team to determine the pace of the game is ceding them too much power. Good teams impose their will on their opponents.

 

[SWC75]

"But we are now on a 2-7 streak."

It only seems that bad.

 

[Col. Bleep]

A lot of thought and effort went into the analysis here.

Without doing any of that...two points:

Defense:
When it gets going so do we. It sparked the comeback against NCSU.
But we are giving up far too many easy points in the paint now.

Offense:
It seems that in order to win we need good production from at least two of these 3 players: Fair, Ennis & Cooney.

Yesterday only TE was doing it.
Jerami can pick up some of the slack.
But with Cooney 0-for-March we need CJ to be hitting his mid-range jumper.
If he's not...we're cooked.
Let's hope he gets untracked...because that seems to be the only way our offense can improve.

 

[victor]

We were marginal offensive team at 25-0. We were a good defensive team but not as good as in past years. We had an unreal record of making plays at the end of games to pull them out. Injuries to Coleman, Keita, Grant and now Cooney were enough to have us losing competitive games instead of winning them and the end of game magic evaporated.

This team needs a second outside shooter and a stud forward, (which neither Fair or Grant really are), as well as a 6th man who can score.

It would also be nice if JB realized that allowing the other team to determine the pace of the game is ceding them too much power. Good teams impose their will on their opponents.

Our front line is good enough. The problem is that we don't have a dependable shooting guard on this team. Put a GMac on this team and I believe we have a chance to win it all. It's not like we are getting blown out by anyone except Va. when Grant was hurt. I would also like to have the 3 pieces you mentioned but then you are talking about a super team which no one else has either

I agree that it would be nice if we could impose our will on other teams, but that is hard to do when you have no depth.

 

[orangefan13]

1.We have won a few close games where Fair didn't show up right at the end with Fair hitting a big shot. Last night he missed the only one he took. Hes the kind of guy that should break a smile even when he is missing and he knows that.

2. Since the ND game Cooney has been ice cold.

3. I give it to NCstate they did a good job stopping Ennis,Cooney, and Gbinije from driving. I don't think Ennis has been kept out of the midpost 1 game all year. Ennis has a way of outrunning our opponents down the stretch, come march that won't happen as much.

4. Cooney and Fair needed to step up obviously. This team is built where we want Fair to to be atleast a 40 percent shooter every night. When he gets down to the 20's like that we will be in danger of losing.

5. Most years I think we needed more from a SG I always hounded triche on this. Oddly enough I am not as tough on Cooney, because of his outside shot. I know the potential is there for him to hit a 2-3 big shots or to go off for 6-7. Keep in mind this was the guy who worked as hard as he can to get a good look before, when you are playing slower halfcourt basketball as we have the last month thats not his shooting game. Hes the one guy on this team that needs to be a offensive version of Kristoff or Pace every game in march, or we could lose. Defenses are going to be hungrier then ever and he needs to play his hardest.

Can't say enough about the return of Grant and our transition ball as of late. This team looked disinterested in Greensboro they were playing more go through the motions then do everything to win. Take note of that.

College basketball is about consistancy if our big four bring it on offense, then we could be the best team in the nation.Consistancy is the key to march, and this team became 25-0 with it.

 

[orangehipfan]

FWIW, I agree with a lot of the OP. But looking at it from a macro point I think to answer "where it all went wrong" you have to look at factors well beyond this season:

- The Bernie Fine scandal costing us our only big man coach. I have no idea how good of a coach he was but we have had a run of MCD AA big men with all of the talent in the world who haven't improved one iota in their 4 years here.
- The day JB decided his schtick was the 2-3 zone and that's it and started recruiting long and rangy fast twitch explosive "athletes" for the zone rather than basketball players... you know guys who can actually put the ball in the hoop. It's inexcusable in this day an age that a top 5 program like ours which selects players only has ONE guy who can shoot. We haven't recruited a good scorer since Dion... and before that it was Devo, Flynn and Green. I personally blame this on the ill fated dynasty era which cause JB to go all in on the D. He stopped wanting to deal with the egos that tend to come with really skilled scorers.
- The day GMAC and Melo won us a title... That season convinced JB to move away from ball-movement and more to a craptastic combo of one on one scoring and screens to free up a shooter. Well guess what when you don't have Melo (or Dion) and you don't have GMAC our offense stinks. There is zero ball movement, zero creativity, zero anything beyond run off of turnovers or long misses the zone causes. Another guess what... if you can't rebound on D or if your point guard stinks in the open floor you are not going to do much in transition.
- The day 30 or 40 years ago JB decided it wasn't worth his time to develop a bench and that "with all these timeouts, kids don't need a rest and can play all day"... this I believe has been JB's #1 weakness in his storied hall of fame career.

I think all of the macro factors have resulted in this perfect storm which has caused us to have a pretty non-satisfying stretch run. Having said all that that, if Cooney gets hot, we are going to make the final four... such is the state of college basketball this year. I applaud the heart of this team in going 25-0 which is an amazing feat given the limits of this team.

I could not agree more with much of the original post and this post. How with the 3 point shot having such an impact on the game do you have a team with ONE 3 point shooter (shaky at best, unproven at worst) heading in to a season. This year we were like the pitcher who is 13 -1 at the All Star break then teams figure it out and he end up 15 - 9. We have ZERO margin for error in the current system we play. I laugh at the vaunted zone. What did NC State shoot after the initial 3 - 16 start or what ever it was? Probably 60 percent. We have no second defensive option except the same full court press we used in 1980. The offense has minimal player movement. CJ ( I love the kid but he will not play in the NBA) can not dribble or pass.

JB has done a lot of good for the SU product but his stuborness is hurting the program. I hope i eat my words i 2 weeks but this is not a good "team". Many signs showed early but wins against a schedule that was not as strong as advertised masked them. As lucky as SU has been to have JB he has been lucky to be here. Most schools would have tossed after the probation in the 90's. The dome (which JB was completely against) has played a huge role in the explosion of the program. Not sure many others could not have done for SU what JB has done but he has been good but needs to up the ante for the program to continue the success of the past 3 years. Not sure if we are closer to continued success or another run like the recent NIT or earl exit from NCAA years.

 

[Eagles20]

He just isn't someone who should be playing full games (and certainly not as the focus of our offense).

Roberson -- a player with real offensive skills -- should have been integrated into the lineup from the get-go, playing 20 minutes a game and spelling both forwards for stretches. I was concerned in November and December that this was not sustainable - Fair and Grant were not, in my opinion, talented enough to get us through six games at the end of the year. That assessment stands - for this team to reach its potential, they need help. Without a third forward, this team would need a streak of perfect basketball to win a championship. That's too much to ask.

Not to nit pick here, but what exactly has Roberson shown offensively that equates to real offensive skills. He hasn't even played enough to make that statement. He looked really hesitant when catching the ball and unsure what move to make. I do agree, that if he got more time he would of relaxed and had a better chance to show ability to produce. CJ needed breathers and Roberson should have been the guy to give him those breathers to keep CJ fresh.

 

[perdurabo]

Stud rebounder. Scorer off the bench.

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

One big problem now is that it's too late for JB to blow it up. Although we faked it for the last few of the 25, our problems didn't became emergencies until very late in the season. So reworking the offense didn't become a priority. It would have been nice if each player added an element to their game over the course of the season but I don't see that any have. If they had then if our bread-and-butter isn't working, we could go to a plan B. As it is now, we pretty much have to stick with the plan and hope the shots start going in.

Wait, are you daring to say that JB didn't do a great job as a coach?

 

[pulaski74]

Is CJ physically ready because TJ Warren straight up punked him last night. CJ is constantly out of position and gets bodied out of rebounds. I'd rather have a shooter in there than him. It's just my opinion.

If Fair was utilized the way he should be, he'd be a beast, but he's not and it hurts our team.

Well, I believe tj warren might b the best player in the country, and has punked about 25 people this year

 

[HarrisonJBounel]

Really? That's the most asinine response imaginable. Given his track record, how long would Pitino have stayed at SU if he had the success you obviously think he would have had? He would have been gone by 1988. We would probably be on the 4th or 5th coach after Pitino. I am not happy with the way this team has played the last 6 weeks, but to say it is because SU chose Boeheim instead of Pitino 35 years ago is just silly.

No, yours was the most asinine response imaginable. I didn't attack anybody and I didn't get personal. My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, wondering what it would have been like to have Pitino as HC instead of JB all these years. But obviously, you didn't figure that out, and chose to be obnoxious instead.

 

[longislandcuse]

Well, I believe tj warren might b the best player in the country, and has punked about 25 people this year

Parker went toe to toe with him.

You'll say I'm comparing him to the best players in the country.. Which I am, he's an AA but he's not on their level which is why he's not a player you can run an offense through and iso all the time.

 

[seanmac1844]

No, yours was the most asinine response imaginable. I didn't attack anybody and I didn't get personal. My post was somewhat tongue-in-cheek, wondering what it would have been like to have Pitino as HC instead of JB all these years. But obviously, you didn't figure that out, and chose to be obnoxious instead.

At what point in your response did you "wonder" what it would have been like?

 

[pearl31]

Like I said in another thread, "good" is no longer good enough. At what should arguably be the best program in the country from a structural standpoint, JB has one in 38 years.

Wait, wasn't this the poster that was getting all over other posters for feeling like the team has no real hope in the tourney??

 

[tbonezone]

since he took the providence gig (pitino) basically has 22 years of college coaching at 3 different schools. during that time he has 7 final fours and 2 championships. i think the guy can coach a little. and who knows what he could have done here. could he have beaten 1-38?
no one can ever truly say. but it's not crazy talk.

 

[pulaski74]

Parker went toe to toe with him.

You'll say I'm comparing him to the best players in the country.. Which I am, he's an AA but he's not on their level which is why he's not a player you can run an offense through and iso all the time.

he's not a player you can run an offense through and iso all the time.[/quote]agree on that part, but thats on jb.

 

[OttoMets]

Not to nit pick here, but what exactly has Roberson shown offensively that equates to real offensive skills. He hasn't even played enough to make that statement. He looked really hesitant when catching the ball and unsure what move to make. I do agree, that if he got more time he would of relaxed and had a better chance to show ability to produce. CJ needed breathers and Roberson should have been the guy to give him those breathers to keep CJ fresh.

From what I've seen, Roberson can face up, he can play with his back to the basket, he can score with both hands from the block, he always keeps the ball up and uses glass on offensive putbacks, he knows how to use a dribble and his body to create space down low, and I think he has good form on his midrange jump shot (though I'd have to admit that he's shot a poor percentage). He's more well-rounded than either starting forward.

I agree that he's looked hesitant in his past few appearances. A function of the threat of the quick hook, from what I can tell.

 

[SoBeCuse]

I feel the same way about Fair that I felt about KJo. Just because he's a senior doesn't mean he needs to be the focal point in the offense, especially when there are two more talented players out there with him. Not to mention CJ is not a good defender or rebounder. People say, we will go as far as CJ takes us. If that's the case, this season will end real quick.

Ennis and Grant need to be the focal points. I honestly think we'd be better letting them run the offense and replacing CJ with a shooter like BJJ but I realize I have an extreme view of CJ and his limitations.

If CJ plays within the offense, he's a weapon but neither he or JB will let that happen.

The more simplistic view of this team.. Cooney needs to shoot better and Rak can't get in foul trouble.

It's all this and the stuff Swish7 was saying. One other thing. Dribble penetration. Barely anything. Cooney really isn't there yet. Ennis sometimes does it. Late in games mostly. Lack of guard penetration is a BIG factor in the stuggles as well, imo.

 

[kuethstheman]

Wait, are you daring to say that JB didn't do a great job as a coach?

I have no idea how far coaches can bring players vs.what percentage is on them. I can imagine that if it's working and you're #1, you spend time refining what you already do vs. trying something completely different. I suppose a visionary coach might have thought earlier that we need to try something completely different and worked on that.

I've never subscribed to the idea that you should play tough games in November to see what you've got but if we'd played games against elite teams in November, maybe Cooney would've missed more shots, maybe CJ would have turned it over even more, and maybe we'd have known then that we needed different options.

 

[Flacusian]

Really? That's the most asinine response imaginable. Given his track record, how long would Pitino have stayed at SU if he had the success you obviously think he would have had? He would have been gone by 1988. We would probably be on the 4th or 5th coach after Pitino. I am not happy with the way this team has played the last 6 weeks, but to say it is because SU chose Boeheim instead of Pitino 35 years ago is just silly.

Utilizing the word "silly" is certainly an all too kind euphemism on your part. Very admirable that you exercised such restraint.

 

[chugg21]

Is CJ physically ready because TJ Warren straight up punked him last night. CJ is constantly out of position and gets bodied out of rebounds. I'd rather have a shooter in there than him. It's just my opinion.

I really don't understand how he has become a worse rebounder over the course of his career. I just went and looked at his per/40 average and it has dropped each season from 8.2 to 8.1 to 7.9 and now a big drop down to 6.5. Is it a case of playing too many minutes and having to conserve energy, because you would think that would at least be offset by getting stronger over the course of those 3 years. Instead, he has seen what is a fairly significant drop-off.

 

[TBCuse11]

Overall good analysis, but you missed the elephant in the room. And that Jumbo was the huge role Jimmy gave to Trevor without any sort of a backup plan if he were to play like he did last year, which is what happened once the conference schedule began. This offense was put together in a way that required us to get 4 or 5 treys per game from the 2G position. When that stopped happening, we stopped scoring and eventually we stopped winning.

It really is this simple. I will accept my week long bans that I receive whenever I question Cooney, but in reality he is the reason we have fallen apart. The kid cant shoot. And i no longer blame him. he is who he is. Jimmy has his favorites, as do all coaches, but Trevor was a bad choice. His only job is to shoot the rock, and he just cant do it. This is no slump. This is who he is.

Lets pray he can catch lightning in a bottle over the next few weeks. Since Jimmy chose to give no run to other guys who can potentially shoot (BJ, Patterson), we are what we are. And no one here can say that honestly think any of his shots are going to go in at this point. I would rather Ennis shoot 8 threes a game.

 

[TBCuse11]

We were marginal offensive team at 25-0. We were a good defensive team but not as good as in past years. We had an unreal record of making plays at the end of games to pull them out. Injuries to Coleman, Keita, Grant and now Cooney were enough to have us losing competitive games instead of winning them and the end of game magic evaporated.

This team needs a second outside shooter and a stud forward, (which neither Fair or Grant really are), as well as a 6th man who can score.

It would also be nice if JB realized that allowing the other team to determine the pace of the game is ceding them too much power. Good teams impose their will on their opponents.

Agree with all, except for Grant. He is a stud. He is our best player and the biggest problem for opposing defenses. His shot is honestly not much worse than CJ, and his ability to get to the tin and draw fouls is much better. Run plays thru Ennis and Grant... its our only shot at this point.