So who's worse in their freshman year - DC2 or Fab?

[SUintheVille]

Amazing. Both players with great hype and expectations coming in. Both players Boeheimed after about 2 minutes in the starting lineup in the beginning of games. It's like I'm reliving Fab over again (ugh!).

Hope that DC2 makes leaps and bounds improvement his soph year like Fab did. Hope DC2 leaves the drama behind, like Fab didn't!

 

[NineOneSeven]

Fab was much, much worse.

 

[jdubs30]

Fab was much, much worse.

Definitely. Coleman is just out of position defensively and has had trouble finishing around the rim; Fab could barely play basketball.

 

[44cuse]

Fab was overhyped.

DC2 is a Fr.

44cuse

 

[SUintheVille]

OK, I agree that DC2 is better as 1st year player. It is interesting though how some highly ranked high school seniors who come to college end up playing extremely well (hence their high ranking) as freshmen (e.g., the real Melo, etc.) while others ranked high do not. Some guys not ranked so high do extremely well too. Ya wonder about the rankings at times. Overall, good, but far from perfect.

 

[ClamOtto]

I think AO might be the better comparison for DC2 than Melo. AO was basically the same size as DC2, with limited speed and hops. AO averaged 8 minutes, 2 points, 3 boards as a freshman. By senior year he had learned how to use his size and was absolutely key to the 09-10 team in the middle. I think DC2 has a higher upside, but I hope he's watching lots of AO tapes.

 

[SBU72]

I think AO might be the better comparison for DC2 than Melo. AO was basically the same size as DC2, with limited speed and hops. AO averaged 8 minutes, 2 points, 3 boards as a freshman. By senior year he had learned how to use his size and was absolutely key to the 09-10 team in the middle. I think DC2 has a higher upside, but I hope he's watching lots of AO tapes.

The point is, AO was not expected to come in and start and contribute big time from the 1st game on. And i agree that DC2 looks to have a bigger upside, (but not a backside!).

 

[newmexicuse]

IMHO DC2's play has regressed significantly since early in the season. The quick pulls have left him with zero confidence. Early in the year at least he was going aggressively after the balls & was rebounding well. Now, he is more worried about being where the coach thinks he should be rather then just going out there & playing his game. He is not going to learn the nuances of his position this season, so when he is on the court he should just be told to get the ball & not worry about anything else.

 

[NineOneSeven]

IMHO DC2's play has regressed significantly since early in the season. The quick pulls have left him with zero confidence. Early in the year at least he was going aggressively after the balls & was rebounding well. Now, he is more worried about being where the coach thinks he should be rather then just going out there & playing his game. He is not going to learn the nuances of his position this season, so when he is on the court he should just be told to get the ball & not worry about anything else.

Competition getting stiffer will do that.

See cooney, and even mcw.

 

[RF2044]

Amazing. Both players with great hype and expectations coming in. Both players Boeheimed after about 2 minutes in the starting lineup in the beginning of games. It's like I'm reliving Fab over again (ugh!).

Hope that DC2 makes leaps and bounds improvement his soph year like Fab did. Hope DC2 leaves the drama behind, like Fab didn't!

There's a pretty simple formula behind how JB assigns PT. If you can't defend or have defensive lapses, you don't play.

JB is all about confidence. If he has confidence in you, he'll overlook the occasional bad shot or poor play. But if he doesn't, you can expect a quick hook after mistakes.

 

[orangecuse]

Amazing. Both players with great hype and expectations coming in. Both players Boeheimed after about 2 minutes in the starting lineup in the beginning of games. It's like I'm reliving Fab over again (ugh!).

Hope that DC2 makes leaps and bounds improvement his soph year like Fab did. Hope DC2 leaves the drama behind, like Fab didn't!

It's an interesting apparent trend that SU has started. I can't recall 'Mickey D' level kids struggling so much from the onset as our two aforementioned guys have...

 

[orangecuse]

There's a pretty simple formula behind how JB assigns PT. If you can't defend or have defensive lapses, you don't play.

JB is all about confidence. If he has confidence in you, he'll overlook the occasional bad shot or poor play. But if he doesn't, you can expect a quick hook after mistakes.

Interesting enigma. Kind of reminds me of the reality...you can't get a job without experience...but can't get experience without a job. :noidea:

 

[OttoMets]

IMHO DC2's play has regressed significantly since early in the season. The quick pulls have left him with zero confidence. Early in the year at least he was going aggressively after the balls & was rebounding well. Now, he is more worried about being where the coach thinks he should be rather then just going out there & playing his game. He is not going to learn the nuances of his position this season, so when he is on the court he should just be told to get the ball & not worry about anything else.

Agree; he's not even going after rebounds. Confidence can't be high right now.

The Arinze comparison isn't a very good - he came in with much better offensive skills. He also contributed meaningful minutes in late-season games; we'll still get to see if Coleman gets that opportunity. Hopefully our season is only halfway through.

 

[timkay99]

I can't recall 'Mickey D' level kids struggling so much from the onset as our two aforementioned guys have...

Big men take a while to develop. Coleman is right where he should be on the development curve. Just because fans expectations were too high (especially with 2 big men returning in Christmas and Keita) doesn't mean the kid is struggling.

Looking at last year's game alone (started with 09 - too much work), here are the big men in it:

Dajuan Coleman (Syracuse)
5 points, 4 boards in 14 minutes
Perry Ellis (Kansas)
5 points, 4 boards in 15 minutes
Shaq Goodwin (Memphis)
9 points, 5 boards in 22 minutes
Amile Jefferson (Duke)
5 points, 3 boards in 12 minutes
Tony Parker (UCLA)
2 points, 1 board in 7 minutes
Brandon Ashley (Arizona)
8 points, 6 boards in 22 minutes
Isaiah Austin (Baylor)
15 points, 9 boards in 31 minutes
Anthony Bennett (UNLV)
18 points, 9 boards in 28 minutes
Grant Jerrett (Arizona)
5 points, 4 boards in 18 minutes
Devonta Pollard (Alabama)
5 points, 3 boards in 22 minutes
Cameron Ridley (Texas)
5 points, 5 boards in 19 minutes

 

[orangecuse]

Big men take a while to develop. Coleman is right where he should be on the development curve. Just because fans expectations were too high (especially with 2 big men returning in Christmas and Keita) doesn't mean the kid is struggling.

Looking at last year's game alone (started with 09 - too much work), here are the big men in it:

Dajuan Coleman (Syracuse)
5 points, 4 boards in 14 minutes
Perry Ellis (Kansas)
5 points, 4 boards in 15 minutes
Shaq Goodwin (Memphis)
9 points, 5 boards in 22 minutes
Amile Jefferson (Duke)
5 points, 3 boards in 12 minutes
Tony Parker (UCLA)
2 points, 1 board in 7 minutes
Brandon Ashley (Arizona)
8 points, 6 boards in 22 minutes
Isaiah Austin (Baylor)
15 points, 9 boards in 31 minutes
Anthony Bennett (UNLV)
18 points, 9 boards in 28 minutes
Grant Jerrett (Arizona)
5 points, 4 boards in 18 minutes
Devonta Pollard (Alabama)
5 points, 3 boards in 22 minutes
Cameron Ridley (Texas)
5 points, 5 boards in 19 minutes

Well, you can't always go with what stats may seem to imply. If you actually believe that Mickey D Coleman (whom basically starts the game and gets yanked a couple of minutes later barely to see the floor again) is, as you say, right where he should be...well, I think you are likely the exception.

 

[Marsh01]

Fab


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[timkay99]

Well, you can't always go with what stats may seem to imply. If you actually believe that Mickey D Coleman (whom basically starts the game and gets yanked a couple of minutes later barely to see the floor again) is, as you say, right where he should be...well, I think you are likely the exception.

The next big to come into the Big East and be an immediate contributor at both ends will be the 1st (for a top level team). The ones who do it are the ones everyone knows is a stud (Noel, Davis, etc.)

Coleman is what I thought he was. I thought he was a 6'9" center with a big body and feel for scoring.

Even the best case scenario I heard for him was Sullinger. I think people expected way too much. Wings and guards can usually be key contributors right away. Bigs are nowhere near ready historically looking back at Mickey D's game from the past. Which is why it is always so important to have an impact big sophomore (Melo, Christmas, next year Coleman) to help ease in the freshman.

 

[billsin01]

Amazing. Both players with great hype and expectations coming in. Both players Boeheimed after about 2 minutes in the starting lineup in the beginning of games. It's like I'm reliving Fab over again (ugh!).

Hope that DC2 makes leaps and bounds improvement his soph year like Fab did. Hope DC2 leaves the drama behind, like Fab didn't!

Wow. Fab ... by a mile.

 

[JLine]

I guess I'm alone thinking it's Coleman.

 

[orangecuse]

The next big to come into the Big East and be an immediate contributor at both ends will be the 1st (for a top level team). The ones who do it are the ones everyone knows is a stud (Noel, Davis, etc.)

Coleman is what I thought he was. I thought he was a 6'9" center with a big body and feel for scoring.

Even the best case scenario I heard for him was Sullinger. I think people expected way too much. Wings and guards can usually be key contributors right away. Bigs are nowhere near ready historically looking back at Mickey D's game from the past. Which is why it is always so important to have an impact big sophomore (Melo, Christmas, next year Coleman) to help ease in the freshman.

I generally disagree. I'm not saying that he should be an impact or a significant contributor, but certainly, imo, to be more of a factor than he is. He was a Mickey D recruit. Craig Forth was nowhere near as highly ranked as Coleman was coming out of high school and he started every game (including his freshman year). More importantly than the starts, he actually played legitimate game minutes when it mattered. And, as I'm sure you're aware, we were a top level team when Forth was a freshman as we won the national championship. The following year we went to the Sweet 16...

 

[clayman32]

I guess I'm alone thinking it's Coleman.

I'm actually with you on this one. DC was rated by ESPN as the #1 player in the country his sophomore year. Fab was a foreigner who had only played basketball a few years. And he wasn't even eligible his junior year.

I guess my expectations for DC were higher than Fab

 

[Melancer46]

I thought Xmas was worse than both of them as a freshman. Coleman should be getting more minutes than he is right now IMO. Fab at least showed flashes here and there. Xmas didn't really show me anything last year at all until he stepped up in the tournament.

 

[Fly Rodder]

I don't think Syracuse gets a look at true blue-chippers. They get good recruits, including McD's, but they're not getting the top-10 kids who can step into D-1 at 18 and succeed. Of those 10 kids, maybe 5 meet expectations and 2 exceed them while 3 falter. Then add in, say a half dozen freshmen that come from further down in the rankings to surprise. It makes it look every other team's freshman are playing like all-stars, but it's just a matter of perception. (except for Michigan, but they have three NBA 1st rounders and two are NBA kids).

All in all, because so much of SU basketball is learning the zone defense and playing it at an exceptionally high level, SU bigs tend to look a little worse early on.

 

[Room 914]

Fab, but I feel a lot worse about Coleman. Dude plays below the rim.

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Amazing. Both players with great hype and expectations coming in. Both players Boeheimed after about 2 minutes in the starting lineup in the beginning of games. It's like I'm reliving Fab over again (ugh!).

Hope that DC2 makes leaps and bounds improvement his soph year like Fab did. Hope DC2 leaves the drama behind, like Fab didn't!

First, lets get the terminology straight. Getting "Boeheimed" as coined by Iggy was alluding to a player not starting or not getting the playing time he deserved. Ethan Cole and Mark K are some of the classic early examples. Fab was not "Boeheimed" in his frosh year, far from it. Fab got a start based on hype. Fab got his minutes because JB wanted to develop him. If anyone was "Boeheimed" that year it was BMK.

As to the OP question, I think Fab was worse. However, I had higher expectations for DC2. I thought his O wouldn't be up to the hype and might take a little while at the college level. But I thought he would have a better grasp of the D and his rebounding would be excellent from day 1. I still think his rebounding would be good if he could get on the floor. But he is not nearly the defensive presence he should be.