Some of you guys need to calm down.

[doc05]

Well, he basically admitted Quade treated it like a "business" (transaction), and was told to treat it as such, since coaches supposedly can't be trusted. The rightful backlash on the kid is the way it unfolded at the 11th hour. It's the staff's fault for not being careful and allowing it to happen, but it's very shortsighted to excuse the sudden, out of the blue "change of heart" right at the early signing deadline, essentially sabotaging a program's recruiting class. As fans of the program, we have every right to call it what it is, regardless if it can be a two-way street at times or not. Some valid points made above, along with a lot of innuendo and speculation.

 

[iommi]

Paragraphs are fantastic, CuseRaised. Tough to read your stuff.

You make some interesting points, but you couldn't be more way off on Moyer. They've already turned on him? That is one one of the most off-base things I've ever read on this forum. First off, Matt is more than good enough to play this year. He missed over a month with a foot injury. He's behind a bunch of players in a stacked front court.

You're saying it would've been better for his development to give him limited minutes this year in the non-conference and then no minutes in the ACC? That would've been better for him? By redshirting him, we are making MORE of a commitment to him. Your first paragraph mentions "ignorance." Your own was on full display here.

 

[CuseRaised]

Paragraphs are fantastic, CuseRaised. Tough to read your stuff.

You make some interesting points, but you couldn't be more way off on Moyer. They've already turned on him? That is one one of the most off-base things I've ever read on this forum. First off, Matt is more than good enough to play this year. He missed over a month with a foot injury. He's behind a bunch of players in a stacked front court.

You're saying it would've been better for his development to give him limited minutes this year in the non-conference and then no minutes in the ACC? That would've been better for him? By redshirting him, we are making MORE of a commitment to him. Your first paragraph mentions "ignorance." Your own was on full display here.

You have no clue what you're talking about. Matt Moyer is nowhere near ready to play there and you will find that out on your own next year unless he improves tremendously this year. He is athletic but lacks in skill and needs to improve his shooting tremdously. As far as the paragraphs are concerned, I knew the English 101 police would come out, but I didn't know I was in school at the moment. Next time I will make appropriate paragraphs.

 

[BlackSquirrels]

Is it safe to assume that everyone here criticizing Green for his "lack of integrity" & "stringing the staff along" felt the same way about Battle after he went back on his Michigan verbal?

I didn't think so.

CuseRaised is the MVP of this thread, but this is an excellent point. Bravo.

Also, I wonder if some of the "loyalty" crowd is conflicted about rooting for Andrew White III or John Gillon this season--two players who saw a better option for themselves and decided to take it.

 

[HoustonCuse]

CuseRaised, thanks for the response. You definitely make some good points, and some that I think many Syracuse fans would agree with. Particularly about the way Boeheim tends to berate players during games and then press conferences. But one way to look at that is that he's been doing this for 40 years and he's been pretty doggone successful at developing a lot of guys. That's his style and that's the kind of old-school style a lot of coaches from his era. The press conference stuff I have no defense for. I think that's horrible and I think that really could hurt us in recruiting because just why, ya know?

On the other hand, the stuff about what amounts to personnel management of players is difficult for me. In my day job I manage a moderately large organization and I know that there are just so many different scenarios and so many different situations and really only one or two people know the full story on most of those. So I'm not going to be willing to throw any coaches under the bus for doing things like "running players out." There are many no win situations and many win-win situations that outside observers could interpret as something very different. And I don't have a media and message board devoted to dissecting every move!

It is just a fact that sports is a performance based business. If you're not as good is everyone thought you were going to be it probably doesn't serve you or the team that recruited you for you to just stay there. I think Coleman is a great example of them seeming to do the right thing. He was two things: not as good as everybody thought and had some severe injuries so seeing how they are handling him seems fair even if it's token minutes it's still game minutes at an elite school. That seems like more than anyone could expect in his situation.

Then I look at after college experiences. I think Boeheim has supported his guys, even guys who weren't necessarily golden boys while they were here. Take a look at Devendorf being on the staff now. In fact the entire staff is all alumni who played for JB, including guys who weren't major stars like Hopkins.

This whole take is not intended to be arguing with you. It's just probably a lot more complicated of a situation than it seems and really it would be easy for any recruit a look at this one way or the other just depends on where they're coming from and what other people told him etc. Recruiting is a tough game clearly.

 

[orangenirvana]

I wasn't going to even respond beacuse of the amount of ignorance on here displayed towards a child but I changed my mind. A lot of you guys are taking this personal. It's nothing personal. Unfortunately this is a business and the coaches treat it as such. Quade and a lot of these top recruits are just smart enough to know that. College basketball is a money maker and these players are disposable to these coaches, especially at the high major level. It's nothing personal against Syracuse, Kentucky is the same way. You think the Harrison twins wanted to leave? Cal forced them out. Did you see what Cal did to Ryan Harrow once he didn't pan out? Ryan should have stayed at NC State. He had a very good freshman season. Actually Ryan came in as a freshman and played really well against SU in the Dome. Then what happens Cal and UK come in and do what they do and he transfers to Kentucky. Once there they find out that they don't like him and then you can't even imagine what they did to him. The kid ended up at Georgia State. So again these coaches don't really care about these kids. They care about winning and keeping their jobs. Unless you're a HOF coach like JB you really don't have to worry about losing your job too much but they want to win. If you can't help them win then you are pretty much no good to them anymore. That's why I said it's all fake love. The same with the fans. They love you then they hate you. I get it fans love their teams but a lot of them sound like spoiled brats.If you really loved Quade you would be happy for him regardless, and you wouldn't bash an 18 year old kid who is being pulled and pressured in a thousand different directions. You wouldn't bash a kid who is trying to make probably the biggest decision of his life thus far. Go back and read the thread and you will see all the evil and nasty things adults are calling him. Why? All because an 18 year old didn't chose the school that they wanted him to chose? So you tell me who is really all those nasty words Quade or all these fake fans? I will touch on another issue for a moment but people are going to need to take their orange blinders off. I get it and we all love SU on here but you really need to take a long look. I mentioned other recruits but look as close as the Syracuse area and see how they did some of their very own kids over the years such as Dajuan Coleman. Say what you want and I know he had injuries but they never developed him over the years. I give Dajuan Coleman a lot of praise for everything he has gone through and I will give SU this much, they didn't run him out. But the only reason why I think that is because he is from the Syracuse area. So instead what they do is make him that token player who they let start and run about 5 trips up in down the court every game before they take him out. They might take him out after two trips up the court depending on wether or not JB feels he did something wrong and wants to scream on him. So I guess that's loyalty because they let the graduate senior play 8 or so minutes a game. We don't have to go back very far. Let us just take a look at the last game. Take a look at the possession that Frank Howard turned the ball over. Did you see what JB did to him? Give me a break, it was one turnover. JB snatched him right out and screamed on him. Then he put Gillon in and he got a turnover and JB lost his mind and took him right out and put Frank back in. Then Frank gets a basket and then hit a 3 as soon as he gets back in. JB should have just coached him through the first turnover anyway instead of screaming on him and yanking him out. Don't you think Frank is playing well and he earned that right? That's how players develop and get better. They don't get better when they're forced to play always looking over their shoulders like robots and puppets. You don't think recruits notice that? I know the string is longer for different players but I want you to really look and watch the game without your orange blinders on. Quade probably wouldn't even have started next year here regardless of what the staff told him. Quade is a smart kid and he knows the game. He's a crazy competitor and he hates to loose. I also want you to remember one thing, Quade is from Philly. Dion Waiters is from Philly. Now I want you to ask yourself how was Dion's relationship with the staff at SU?

I could say so much more but I have already wrote your eyes off long enough, in far too much length I may add. But I will end with loyalty again because a lot of people have mentioned that. Let's take a look at SU's most loyal recent recruit Matthew Moyer. Look how loyal he has been to SU. He's been promoting SU since day one and he's been even trying to help get other recruits to commit to SU. It didn't take SU long to turn their loyalty towards him but he's such a good kid he can't even see that they have already started to turn on him. Some might say they're doing him a favor by giving him a redshirt year but others see this could be the beginning to a not so good place for him there. Do you think he redshirted because of injury? He redshirted because the staff found out he's not good enough to play there right now. So I'm telling you if he doesn't develop to their standards he with either never really play there or they will ship him out on the next flight leaving the airport and recruit somebody else over him. Now tell me again about loyalty. Long story short Quade and the rest of these kids don't owe anybody loyalty except their families and their selfs. Quade did what he felt was best for him and his family regardless of how he did it and regardless of who didn't like it. Quade wants to get to the NBA and take care of his family and he believes Kentucky is the best way for him to do that at. Case closed.

"If you really loved Quade you would be happy for him regardless, and you wouldn't bash an 18 year old kid who is being pulled and pressured in a thousand different directions."

Why would a fan "love" a high school kid they have never and will never even meet? That's some creepy stuff there dude.

You should contact Boeheim and give him a coaching seminar. I'm sure you can teach him a ton!

I have a sneaking suspicion you're living in a fantasy world.

 

[Orangtiz]

We could be calmer, but we have signed no top 100 recruits this cycle when the Northeast was loaded. We may only have 4 players return. Not a good position to be in long term any way you try to spin it. There's very little left in the form of prospects to sign.

Who's ing fault is that? The staff's. Period. End of Story. They put all their eggs in one basket and it didn't work, now they have to scramble.

 

[Orangtiz]

I don't follow recruiting enough to know this, but are we any bit involved in Trae Young? Why don't we go after him hard now that UK is out of the picture. I assume it would be somewhat of a coup to keep him away from Oklahoma though.

 

[Cuse'91]

I don't follow recruiting enough to know this, but are we any bit involved in Trae Young? Why don't we go after him hard now that UK is out of the picture. I assume it would be somewhat of a coup to keep him away from Oklahoma though.

Trevon to pros, Trae to OK, Shai decommitts from UK to UT, Matt to Duke, and then the musical chairs game ends...

 

[Holograms]

Trevon to pros, Trae to OK, Shai decommitts from UK to UT, Matt to Duke, and then the musical chairs game ends...

Shai signed his LOI

 

[orangecuse]

Shai signed his LOI

In hindsight, I presume he wished he hadn't.

 

[iommi]

You have no clue what you're talking about. Matt Moyer is nowhere near ready to play there and you will find that out on your own next year unless he improves tremendously this year. He is athletic but lacks in skill and needs to improve his shooting tremdously. As far as the paragraphs are concerned, I knew the English 101 police would come out, but I didn't know I was in school at the moment. Next time I will make appropriate paragraphs.

I was not being impolite about the paragraphs. I literally had a tough time reading what you wrote.

I'm not sure what you mean by Moyer being, "nowhere near ready to play there." What is there? You said "there" repeatedly in your opus too. Is "there" supposed to be "here" at SU? Is it "there" at the 3? Anyway, as someone who has followed him closely for several years, saw him play in person before he committed, and interviewed him a couple times too, nice to know I don't know what I'm talking about. Noted.

If you don't think he can play here, at this school, or this level, you are dead wrong. He does need to get stronger and improve on his shot and handle. No question. The staff put him at the three this year, partly since we are lacking small forwards and partly to ramp up his development. He's not a 3 right now. He's a 4. Down the line, he can be a 4/3. Like Battle, his inability to shoot has been greatly exaggerated. His shot needs work but it'd be serviceable right now. He also has tremendous intangibles, things like the highest motor imaginable, leadership abilities and basketball IQ. If you don't think those things are important, you don't get it.

Matt Moyer will be a long-term player here. The kid bleeds orange. Moyer is a special person and will be a special player. He will be a fan favorite, maybe even a guy who will be honored with a jersey ceremony well after his retirement. You think he will be shown the door and tossed on a plane to some mid-major. Idiotic.

 

[dasher]

I wasn't going to even respond beacuse of the amount of ignorance on here displayed towards a child but I changed my mind. A lot of you guys are taking this personal. It's nothing personal. Unfortunately this is a business and the coaches treat it as such. Quade and a lot of these top recruits are just smart enough to know that. College basketball is a money maker and these players are disposable to these coaches, especially at the high major level. It's nothing personal against Syracuse, Kentucky is the same way. You think the Harrison twins wanted to leave? Cal forced them out. Did you see what Cal did to Ryan Harrow once he didn't pan out? Ryan should have stayed at NC State. He had a very good freshman season. Actually Ryan came in as a freshman and played really well against SU in the Dome. Then what happens Cal and UK come in and do what they do and he transfers to Kentucky. Once there they find out that they don't like him and then you can't even imagine what they did to him. The kid ended up at Georgia State. So again these coaches don't really care about these kids. They care about winning and keeping their jobs. Unless you're a HOF coach like JB you really don't have to worry about losing your job too much but they want to win. If you can't help them win then you are pretty much no good to them anymore. That's why I said it's all fake love. The same with the fans. They love you then they hate you. I get it fans love their teams but a lot of them sound like spoiled brats. If you really loved Quade you would be happy for him regardless, and you wouldn't bash an 18 year old kid who is being pulled and pressured in a thousand different directions. You wouldn't bash a kid who is trying to make probably the biggest decision of his life thus far. Go back and read the thread and you will see all the evil and nasty things adults are calling him. Why? All because an 18 year old didn't chose the school that they wanted him to chose? So you tell me who is really all those nasty words Quade or all these fake fans? I will touch on another issue for a moment but people are going to need to take their orange blinders off. I get it and we all love SU on here but you really need to take a long look. I mentioned other recruits but look as close as the Syracuse area and see how they did some of their very own kids over the years such as Dajuan Coleman. Say what you want and I know he had injuries but they never developed him over the years. I give Dajuan Coleman a lot of praise for everything he has gone through and I will give SU this much, they didn't run him out. But the only reason why I think that is because he is from the Syracuse area. So instead what they do is make him that token player who they let start and run about 5 trips up in down the court every game before they take him out. They might take him out after two trips up the court depending on wether or not JB feels he did something wrong and wants to scream on him. So I guess that's loyalty because they let the graduate senior play 8 or so minutes a game. We don't have to go back very far. Let us just take a look at the last game. Take a look at the possession that Frank Howard turned the ball over. Did you see what JB did to him? Give me a break, it was one turnover. JB snatched him right out and screamed on him. Then he put Gillon in and he got a turnover and JB lost his mind and took him right out and put Frank back in. Then Frank gets a basket and then hit a 3 as soon as he gets back in. JB should have just coached him through the first turnover anyway instead of screaming on him and yanking him out. Don't you think Frank is playing well and he earned that right? That's how players develop and get better. They don't get better when they're forced to play always looking over their shoulders like robots and puppets. You don't think recruits notice that? I know the string is longer for different players but I want you to really look and watch the game without your orange blinders on. Quade probably wouldn't even have started next year here regardless of what the staff told him. Quade is a smart kid and he knows the game. He's a crazy competitor and he hates to loose. I also want you to remember one thing, Quade is from Philly. Dion Waiters is from Philly. Now I want you to ask yourself how was Dion's relationship with the staff at SU?

I could say so much more but I have already wrote your eyes off long enough, in far too much length I may add. But I will end with loyalty again because a lot of people have mentioned that. Let's take a look at SU's most loyal recent recruit Matthew Moyer. Look how loyal he has been to SU. He's been promoting SU since day one and he's been even trying to help get other recruits to commit to SU. It didn't take SU long to turn their loyalty towards him but he's such a good kid he can't even see that they have already started to turn on him. Some might say they're doing him a favor by giving him a redshirt year but others see this could be the beginning to a not so good place for him there. Do you think he redshirted because of injury? He redshirted because the staff found out he's not good enough to play there right now. So I'm telling you if he doesn't develop to their standards he with either never really play there or they will ship him out on the next flight leaving the airport and recruit somebody else over him. Now tell me again about loyalty. Long story short Quade and the rest of these kids don't owe anybody loyalty except their families and their selfs. Quade did what he felt was best for him and his family regardless of how he did it and regardless of who didn't like it. Quade wants to get to the NBA and take care of his family and he believes Kentucky is the best way for him to do that at. Case closed.

Please name the kid that have red shirted at Syracuse that it didn't work out for? 40 years. You really can't. Moyer will be a fine player at Syracuse. The coaches letting him red shirt was good for him. As far as JB yelling at kids. It's called coaching. Most coaches do that. Cal does it at Kentucky.

 

[Wheatgerm]

There's something to be said for going through all five stages of grief. It's not healthy to jump straight to acceptance.

 

[CuseRaised]

I was not being impolite about the paragraphs. I literally had a tough time reading what you wrote.

I'm not sure what you mean by Moyer being, "nowhere near ready to play there." What is there? You said "there" repeatedly in your opus too. Is "there" supposed to be "here" at SU? Is it "there" at the 3? Anyway, as someone who has followed him closely for several years, saw him play in person before he committed, and interviewed him a couple times too, nice to know I don't know what I'm talking about. Noted.

If you don't think he can play here, at this school, or this level, you are dead wrong. He does need to get stronger and improve on his shot and handle. No question. The staff put him at the three this year, partly since we are lacking small forwards and partly to ramp up his development. He's not a 3 right now. He's a 4. Down the line, he can be a 4/3. Like Battle, his inability to shoot has been greatly exaggerated. His shot needs work but it'd be serviceable right now. He also has tremendous intangibles, things like the highest motor imaginable, leadership abilities and basketball IQ. If you don't think those things are important, you don't get it.

Matt Moyer will be a long-term player here. The kid bleeds orange. Moyer is a special person and will be a special player. He will be a fan favorite, maybe even a guy who will be honored with a jersey ceremony well after his retirement. You think he will be shown the door and tossed on a plane to some mid-major. Idiotic.

I didn't mean any disrespect and I apologize if it came across that way. He is a great kid and I want all the best for him. I'm just telling you he is not ready to play at this level right now. Hopefully he will be at some point but he is not ready now. That's why they redshirted him.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

Who's . . . . . . . fault is that? The staff's. Period. End of Story. They put all their eggs in one basket and it didn't work, now they have to scramble.

I chuckled. "Sunny side" is that, in my opinion, in our system (length, zone), a Jr.-Sr. Frank Howard may be a better fit than a Fr.-Soph. Green.

 

[Trueblue25]

Upstate has its fair share of "rednecks".

 

[iommi]

I didn't mean any disrespect and I apologize if it came across that way. He is a great kid and I want all the best for him. I'm just telling you he is not ready to play at this level right now. Hopefully he will be at some point but he is not ready now. That's why they redshirted him.

No problem. I get your point. Maybe he wasn't ready to be a huge rotational guy but he could have given us 10-15 solid minutes a game IMO. Right now, he's not a pure three, that's for sure.

 

[CuseRaised]

Please name the kid that have red shirted at Syracuse that it didn't work out for? 40 years. You really can't. Moyer will be a fine player at Syracuse. The coaches letting him red shirt was good for him. As far as JB yelling at kids. It's called coaching. Most coaches do that. Cal does it at Kentucky.

What do you mean by "work out?" Do you mean like Matt Gorman work out, or another work out?

 

[dasher]

What do you mean by "work out?" Do you mean like Matt Gorman work out, or another work out?

Throw Eric Rogers in as well. Now, do you want me to list the guys that it worked out great for. It's a long list. Would be even longer if they did it more. I wish they did. This is a good thing for Matt. And he knows it. As for Matt Gorman, he got his degree. Or would you have rather he be run off? Can't have it both ways.

 

[iommi]

Throw Eric Rogers in as well. Now, do you want me to list the guys that it worked out great for. It's a long list. Would be even longer if they did it more. I wish they did. This is a good thing for Matt. And he knows it. As for Matt Gorman, he got his degree. Or would you have rather he be run off? Can't have it both ways.

And Gorman has a national championship ring. Plus, I'm sure he helped the team in ways that didn't always show up in a box score.

 

[dasher]

And Gorman has a national championship ring. Plus, I'm sure he helped the team in ways that didn't always show up in a box score.

so the lesson is that if JB told him that he wouldn't play and Matt left, JB is a bad guy. If JB told him he wouldn't play and he stayed and didn't play, JB was a bad guy. If JB made him leave and he played elsewhere, JB was a bad guy.

 

[W'boro'Cuse315]

Throw Eric Rogers in as well. Now, do you want me to list the guys that it worked out great for. It's a long list. Would be even longer if they did it more. I wish they did. This is a good thing for Matt. And he knows it. As for Matt Gorman, he got his degree. Or would you have rather he be run off? Can't have it both ways.

Not to argue, but our list of developmental redshirts is actually pretty short. You can't really count transfers because those are NCAA-mandated. As for those that "worked out", it's basically Hopkins, Otis Hill, Z Sims, & Cooney. I guess you could be generous & add J.B. Reafsnyder & Dave Siock :noidea:

EDIT: I agree with your general point & am not attempting to disprove it. I just enjoy talking SU hoops history.

 

[jordville]

And Gorman has a national championship ring. Plus, I'm sure he helped the team in ways that didn't always show up in a box score.

And from Watertown! Good dude.

 

[Sherlocked]

Moyer was like a top 80 recruit, right? Those kids never want to redshirt. They think they'll earn PT on any team, and they want to go pro in <4 years, so in the mind of a top recruit, a redshirt year is a year wasted.