Some questions I have after game 4

[upperdeck]

had we caught the 2nd pass having the 2 TOs would have been better than calling the TO first and saving 1-2 secs.. the 2nd timeout would have meant we had the whole field to throw too.

 

[Scooch]

Frankly 90%+ of coaches down seven, getting the ball to start the second half with 29 seconds left would take a knee there. Once we decided to attack, I was calling for a timeout there too, but if we had taken the timeout and then thrown the interception leading to an Army FG as the clock expired, the critics would be out clamoring that the chances of scoring in that situation was near zero for Cuse and Dino's game management is abyssmal.

You make an important point. I think a coach has to commit to their plan once they embark on it.

Dino wanted to take a shot. So then you gotta maximize the outcome there, which meant calling a TO was the obvious decision to make.

It's when a coach starts taking half-measures that things tend to go to hell.

 

[sufandu]

Is there an active mic/ear piece in GS helmet? For some reason I thought Beck was constantly communicating with GS on the field.

Isn't it only the NFL that has that?

 

[FasterCuse]

Isn't it only the NFL that has that?

Yeah, I believe still only the NFL. Looks like the rules committee has looked at it, but there may be a costs/logistics issue due to the number of FBS teams.

Why doesn't college football use helmet communication like the NFL? Inside a new system that could change that

There has been some talk and support from coaches to add helmet communication to college football, like the NFL. What will it take?

theathletic.com

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Frankly 90%+ of coaches down seven, getting the ball to start the second half with 29 seconds left would take a knee there. Once we decided to attack, I was calling for a timeout there too, but if we had taken the timeout and then thrown the interception leading to an Army FG as the clock expired, the critics would be out clamoring that the chances of scoring in that situation was near zero for Cuse and Dino's game management is abyssmal.

Yeah, but, the objective isn't not getting second guessed. I'm second guessing him now, anyway.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

These decisions are far more difficult then we make them seem.

They, in fact, are not.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

You make an important point. I think a coach has to commit to their plan once they embark on it.

Dino wanted to take a shot. So then you gotta maximize the outcome there, which meant calling a TO was the obvious decision to make.

It's when a coach starts taking half-measures that things tend to go to hell.

Absolutely.

 

[djorange1989]

It would be polite to say Dino makes some strange clock management decisions, I am just glad it didn’t cost us anything this time. We cannot afford something dumb against Clemson like last year when he froze and cost us about 15-20 seconds before calling the last TO. Worst SU time-out deer in the headlights since the 1987 hoops title game

 

[Scooch]

Yeah, but, the objective isn't not getting second guessed. I'm second guessing him now, anyway.

Football coaches are comically risk averse.

For the most part, their guiding strategy is to extend the game as long as possible to avoid losing. It's not necessarily to maximize their chance of winning. They'll all say it's the latter, but very few actually coach that way.

Last night's game is a prime example of that. There is conflicting data about what was the optimal decision for McDaniels to make in terms of maximizing the chance to win -- that being, kick the FG with 2 1/2 minutes remaining to cut the lead to 5, or go for the TD and subsequent 2 point conversion to tie the game.

But what is unquestionable is that kicking the FG extended the game, and thus prolonged the possibility of losing.

I can argue about the logic of the FG attempt -- if you trust your D enough to stop the Steelers down 5, don't you trust them enough to stop them down either 2 or 8 should the 4th down conversion or 2-point conversion fail? Were you likely to be in a better position to score a TD than right there? Wouldn't it be easier to kick a FG for the win should you force the Steelers to punt than score a TD?

But honestly all of that hardly matters because McDaniels clearly prioritized extending the possibility of losing rather than maximizing the opportunity to win.

 

[Cuse181]

They, in fact, are not.

I guess we are wasting 3M/year on a ball coach then?

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I guess we are wasting 3M/year on a ball coach then?

You know that's not what I said.

 

[Cuse181]

You know that's not what I said.

You said the decisions aren't hard, if they weren't hard people wouldnt be paid millions to make them

 

[NYfan]

Football coaches are comically risk averse.

And people being humans are comically unable to understand that.

 

[upperdeck]

Football coaches are comically risk averse.

For the most part, their guiding strategy is to extend the game as long as possible to avoid losing. It's not necessarily to maximize their chance of winning. They'll all say it's the latter, but very few actually coach that way.

Last night's game is a prime example of that. There is conflicting data about what was the optimal decision for McDaniels to make in terms of maximizing the chance to win -- that being, kick the FG with 2 1/2 minutes remaining to cut the lead to 5, or go for the TD and subsequent 2 point conversion to tie the game.

But what is unquestionable is that kicking the FG extended the game, and thus prolonged the possibility of losing.

I can argue about the logic of the FG attempt -- if you trust your D enough to stop the Steelers down 5, don't you trust them enough to stop them down either 2 or 8 should the 4th down conversion or 2-point conversion fail? Were you likely to be in a better position to score a TD than right there? Wouldn't it be easier to kick a FG for the win should you force the Steelers to punt than score a TD?

But honestly all of that hardly matters because McDaniels clearly prioritized extending the possibility of losing rather than maximizing the opportunity to win.

The issue with stats is they are arbitrary.. You have x number of times something may happen and you want to apply it to a situation.. This isnt dice or cards where the Y is known outcome.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

You said the decisions aren't hard, if they weren't hard people wouldnt be paid millions to make them

Or, hear me out, maybe people paid millions of dollars to be football coaches encounter a series of decisions, some much more critical than others, and some much simpler and easier to make than others, and the salary takes into account the holistic requirements of the position and not just the things that dorm room denizen Madden players could handle better all coked up on Mountain Dew and pizza.

 

[Cuse181]

Or, hear me out, maybe people paid millions of dollars to be football coaches encounter a series of decisions, some much more critical than others, and some much simpler and easier to make than others, and the salary takes into account the holistic requirements of the position and not just the things that dorm room denizen Madden players could handle better all coked up on Mountain Dew and pizza.

Except its not that simple, every decision is intertwined and knowing that 23 is more than 15 does not equate to being a game manger.

 

[TheHaze315]

Expect its not that simple, every decision is intertwined and knowing that 23 is more than 15 does not equate to being a game manger.

Knowing when to use timeouts does however. 2 timeouts left with 23 seconds is a no brainer spot to call a timeout when the clock is running. You can’t take those timeouts with you to the next half, what are you saving them for?

 

[dollarbill44]

Why didn't we immediately call timeout when we advanced the ball at the end of the first half?

Dino likes to save them. I think someone told him that when you die, you can use any unused timeouts to atone for sins.

 

[Cuse181]

Knowing when to use timeouts does however. 2 timeouts left with 23 seconds is a no brainer spot to call a timeout when the clock is running. You can’t take those timeouts with you to the next half, what are you saving them for?

He might not have planned to use them at all? Who knows. Shrader did exactly what we were all afraid he’d do to end the half and thank god the timeout wasn’t called.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Except its not that simple, every decision is intertwined and knowing that 23 is more than 15 does not equate to being a game manger.

OH FFS

 

[TheHaze315]

He might not have planned to use them at all? Who knows. Shrader did exactly what we were all afraid he’d do to end the half and thank god the timeout wasn’t called.

What? So if he didn’t plan to use them beforehand he shouldn’t use them when the situation presents itself? If he called timeout the pick likely doesn’t happen. Everything was rushed when it didn’t have to be and Shrader forced it. If Dino used his timeout GS gets reminded not to force it and take what the defense gives him while also allowing Beck a better chance to call his best play for the situation, remember this is Beck’s first year calling plays and the first time he’s faced adversity while doing so. A timeout to slow everything down was the play ten times out of ten.

 

[TheHaze315]

Dino lukrs to save them. I think someone told him that when you die, you can use any unused timeouts to atone for sins.

Dino is covered for sure then, he’s got plenty in the bank.

 

[Crusty]

Well, I think his priorities are dumb and wrong on this one, he made a bad choice, they absolutely could have had a chance at another play, and even though the second half performance and win obscures it, this is another clear strike against his clock management and decision making and we're lucky it didn't cost us.

I think his point was that two plays was possible regardless but not three even with a TO. Three would mean only short passes. I don't know there is always tension between giving the defense time to discuss their formation and giving yourself time to conjure up the best play.

 

[OrangePA]

Because Dino is better at math than we are

(I work as an actual Quant for a living, so I always smirk when he infers this)

Quants smirk??

 

[dollarbill44]

He might not have planned to use them at all? Who knows. Shrader did exactly what we were all afraid he’d do to end the half and thank god the timeout wasn’t called.

I wasn't afraid of him throwing an INT. Maybe if the TO was called, we would have gone with a different play or Army would have used a different D? After all, you said it, every decision is intertwined.