Some Signs of Movement on the Missouri Front | Page 3 | Syracusefan.com

Some Signs of Movement on the Missouri Front

I don't think you're right.

According to Jake "we were invited" to the ACC.

Listen to interview with Axe.

http://www.syracuse.com/axeman/index.ssf/2011/09/former_syracuse_athletic_direc.html

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Link : 5/16/2003 article:

"Our member institutions reached an agreement to begin formal discussions with Boston College, the University of Miami and Syracuse University to join the Alantic Coast Conference," said Clemson president James Barker, chairman of the Council of Presidents. "These three institutions represent and share the values for which the ACC has long been known."

"League by-laws say that each of the three schools invited must be visited by the existing nine ACC chancellors and athletic directors. After those visits, an official vote will be taken on each school in favor of or opposed to their admission to the ACC."

In 2003, there was an "invitation" to begin formal discussions.

In 2011, an official ACC vote made SU an ACC member.
 
Yeah, it was "fantastical" when Swofford called Jake in the summer of 2003 and rescinded the ACC offer.

And, it's "fantastical" that the lawsuit UConn filed - the BE did not sue the ACC - would have ramifications today - oops it did!

What's "fantastical" is the notion you have advanced that the States of New Jersey and Connecticut will allow their programs to be destroyed.

Paybacks are a bitch.

I have no desire to engage in or hope for the kind of "utter destruction" you mention.

Though you view them as enemies apparently, they are in fact business partners. Trying to destroy is not a good idea.

Better to make their situation palatable and move on to the ACC.

Sorry, but that's the way I see it.

We were never voted into the ACC in 2003. So how was an offer rescinded?

The BE did not file suit it was a few BE schools and the suit failed. There is precedent for all these conference changes. No way all of a sudden we see a change. Also UConn and RU saw how the last suit has hurt them. No way they try it again knowing it will hurt there changes at getting an invite.

UConn and RU are NO LONGER our partners. You seem to not get that.

No way both RU and UConn end up in the ACC. Maybe one. In all likelihood one of the two will not be in a BCS conference when everything settles. One will go with ND. The other does not bring enough on their own to be worthy of an invite. If I had to guess UConn will not be in a BCS conference. Its a numbers game and there aren't enough seats for both.
 
...and it has gotten to this point...WHY? This is almost as rediculous as the WVU board...lighten up people. We are going to the ACC...if necessary from a legal standpoint, 'Cuse can always use the non signing of the media contract as an out...but it really doesnt need it...there are too many other "moves" that have been made that would be substantive case law...colleges move from conference to conference...and 'Cuse did not cost BE a cent because the upcoming media contract was not signed and it wasnt signed because a number of schools voted against it...'Cuse could make a case that this cost the university dollars...

Now for Uconn and Rutgirls, I would like to see them do well. I would bet that they are eventually in another conference...and as far as WVU and Louisville are concerned...probably gone baby gone to Big 12 within the month or two...at least agreeing to go.

Leave the BE to basketball...and it will do well...now onto the upcoming NC season...go 'Cuse
 
We were never voted into the ACC in 2003. So how was an offer rescinded?

The BE did not file suit it was a few BE schools and the suit failed. There is precedent for all these conference changes. No way all of a sudden we see a change. Also UConn and RU saw how the last suit has hurt them. No way they try it again knowing it will hurt there changes at getting an invite.

UConn and RU are NO LONGER our partners. You seem to not get that.

No way both RU and UConn end up in the ACC. Maybe one. In all likelihood one of the two will not be in a BCS conference when everything settles. One will go with ND. The other does not bring enough on their own to be worthy of an invite. If I had to guess UConn will not be in a BCS conference. Its a numbers game and there aren't enough seats for both.

No actually I don't think you get it.

We are business partners with all college football schools whether those schools are in our conference or not.

I do not believe that it is good business to put a partner such as Rutgers or UConn in a position where the school becomes desperate.

Desperation can cause schools to take action that could eventually hurt Syracuse University - who knows how that might occur.

But there is no need to create a situation where that is a possibility.

Again your certainty is remarkable considering that none of us knows what will happen in the next 27 months. I wish I knew what you feel you know. And that's the point for me - I feel I know what I don't know - and that's why I feel the more cautionary approach of encouraging the survival of the BE is the better way to go.

I choose certainty and stability rather than the kind of uncertainty that your approach engenders.

We just see things very differently.
 
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The ACC did NOT rescind an offer to SU to join the conference in 2003.

The initial ACC vote was to invite SU, BC and Miami to submit applications for membership. If you remember, the ACC sent an evaluation committee to visit SU.

It turned out SU lacked the votes for ACC membership.

This time around, the ACC voted and SU accepted the ACC offer to join. There are no other votes scheduled. It's done.

SU absolutely did have an invite and accepted. I don't know what the "procedures" are now, but the ACC then used straw polls. The "official" vote wouldn't happen of course until after 2 things, 1) they knew the invitee would accept and 2) they knew they had the votes to accept the application. It only makes sense that a formal vote can't be until receiving the applications. The final straw poll had all in agreement except for Duke and UNC. Enough to pass so they sent the invites and we accepted. It was only then when Warner stepped in and forced UVa to vote no. It is a fact that even the press releases were prepared announcing SU, BC and Miami joining. It is possible that because of that fiasco that the ACC (and maybe others) now require that the final formal vote take place prior to invites being formally offered and accepted, with no option to change you vote after. They just say that they were voted in when that vote may have taken places weeks earlier. But in the landscape of 2003/4, SU was invited and accepted.
 
SU absolutely did have an invite and accepted. I don't know what the "procedures" are now, but the ACC then used straw polls. The "official" vote wouldn't happen of course until after 2 things, 1) they knew the invitee would accept and 2) they knew they had the votes to accept the application. It only makes sense that a formal vote can't be until receiving the applications. The final straw poll had all in agreement except for Duke and UNC. Enough to pass so they sent the invites and we accepted. It was only then when Warner stepped in and forced UVa to vote no. It is a fact that even the press releases were prepared announcing SU, BC and Miami joining. It is possible that because of that fiasco that the ACC (and maybe others) now require that the final formal vote take place prior to invites being formally offered and accepted, with no option to change you vote after. They just say that they were voted in when that vote may have taken places weeks earlier. But in the landscape of 2003/4, SU was invited and accepted.
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This is really not complicated:

The linked article that quoted the ACC bylaws was May 16, 2003:

in the words of Clemson President James Barker: "Our member institutions reached an agreement to begin formal discussions with Boston College, the University of Miami and Syracuse University to join the Alantic Coast Conference".

Link : 5/16/2003 article:

"League by-laws say that each of the three schools invited must be visited by the existing nine ACC chancellors and athletic directors. After those visits, an official vote will be taken on each school in favor of or opposed to their admission to the ACC."

In 2003, there was an "invitation" to begin formal discussions, but actual membership was conditional on a formal vote. The ACC formally voted to admit Miami, VT and then BC.

In 2011, an official, formal ACC vote made SU an ACC member.
 
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This is really not complicated:

The linked article that quoted the ACC bylaws was May 16, 2003:

in the words of Clemson President James Barker: "Our member institutions reached an agreement to begin formal discussions with Boston College, the University of Miami and Syracuse University to join the Alantic Coast Conference".

Link : 5/16/2003 article:

"League by-laws say that each of the three schools invited must be visited by the existing nine ACC chancellors and athletic directors. After those visits, an official vote will be taken on each school in favor of or opposed to their admission to the ACC."

In 2003, there was an "invitation" to begin formal discussions, but actual membership was conditional on a formal vote. The ACC formally voted to admit Miami, VT and then BC.

In 2011, an official, formal ACC vote made SU an ACC member.

No it really isn't complicated. You are missing a lot of info and have many holes in your time line since you use 1 article. Re-read my post. I can assure you we had an invite. The ACC led by Debbie Yow visited SU who then made a public statement gushing over SU and the visit. Today, a conference will not announce a "formal" invite unless they know a school will accept, in 2003 a formal visit was not done without what they at the time called a "straw poll". They weren't going to go through a public visit and all the hoopla without some assurances on both sides. Again, this went so far as the press release announcing our membership into the ACC had been written.
 
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This is really not complicated:

The linked article that quoted the ACC bylaws was May 16, 2003:

in the words of Clemson President James Barker: "Our member institutions reached an agreement to begin formal discussions with Boston College, the University of Miami and Syracuse University to join the Alantic Coast Conference".

Link : 5/16/2003 article:

"League by-laws say that each of the three schools invited must be visited by the existing nine ACC chancellors and athletic directors. After those visits, an official vote will be taken on each school in favor of or opposed to their admission to the ACC."

In 2003, there was an "invitation" to begin formal discussions, but actual membership was conditional on a formal vote. The ACC formally voted to admit Miami, VT and then BC.

In 2011, an official, formal ACC vote made SU an ACC member.

BTW, here are the public statements made by Yow, Swofford and others after they made their visit to SU. Read every bit of it and then tell me what the intent was. They don't go through all of this publicly without knowing what the outcome will be. 11th hour politics changed the result.

Linky
 
BTW, here are the public statements made by Yow, Swofford and others after they made their visit to SU. Read every bit of it and then tell me what the intent was. They don't go through all of this publicly without knowing what the outcome will be. 11th hour politics changed the result.

Linky

We all know the intent was to add SU. It was supposed to be a formality. But that is 110% different then our current situation where the FORMAL INVITE HAPPENED. This shouldn't be hard to understand. If SU had a formal invite in 2003 it wouldn't have mattered what the VA Gov wanted. He had UVA withhold their FORMAL vote. If the formal vote happened already, he woulda had no leverage.
 
BTW, here are the public statements made by Yow, Swofford and others after they made their visit to SU. Read every bit of it and then tell me what the intent was. They don't go through all of this publicly without knowing what the outcome will be. 11th hour politics changed the result.

Linky
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I rest my case:

Does the visitation team feel that the expansion is a done deal?
Lee Fowler: "Number one, it will be the chancellors and presidents that will make that decision. We feel really comfortable with the situation at all three of these schools. There was a lot of research done before we made these official visits. It's very positive about all three of our visits. The information will be given to the chancellors and they will actually make the final decisions."

John Swofford: "I would add that this is a two-way street, as expansion always is. There had to be a certain level of interest by both parties, both the ACC as well as Miami, Boston College and Syracuse to reach the point of these visits taking place. That was a two-way decision. The ultimate decision as to whether, together, we take the next step is also a two-way street."

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The ACC obviously screwed up big time; it was a total fiasco; fortunately the ACC got it right this time. SU is an ACC member; the formal, official vote was taken.
 
We all know the intent was to add SU. It was supposed to be a formality. But that is 110% different then our current situation where the FORMAL INVITE HAPPENED. This shouldn't be hard to understand. If SU had a formal invite in 2003 it wouldn't have mattered what the VA Gov wanted. He had UVA withhold their FORMAL vote. If the formal vote happened already, he woulda had no leverage.

What is hard to understand? I said the "formal" vote came after. The way it was done in 2003 was different than now. We had the invite. The invite was tendered based upon an informal poll so that the formal vote was a formality as you called it. There is no formal vote without an invite. We were invited, that was the only point. As to this time, the formal invite also came after they knew we would accpet and the only thing formal was being asked to apply since we were already voted in (formal or not).
 
----------------------

I rest my case:

Does the visitation team feel that the expansion is a done deal?
Lee Fowler: "Number one, it will be the chancellors and presidents that will make that decision. We feel really comfortable with the situation at all three of these schools. There was a lot of research done before we made these official visits. It's very positive about all three of our visits. The information will be given to the chancellors and they will actually make the final decisions."

John Swofford: "I would add that this is a two-way street, as expansion always is. There had to be a certain level of interest by both parties, both the ACC as well as Miami, Boston College and Syracuse to reach the point of these visits taking place. That was a two-way decision. The ultimate decision as to whether, together, we take the next step is also a two-way street."

-------
The ACC obviously screwed up big time; it was a total fiasco; fortunately the ACC got it right this time. SU is an ACC member; the formal, official vote was taken.

We had an invite. Nothing else happens without an invite, acceptance and the knowledge that we would be accepted. That vote was 7-2. You and King are trying to use invite and acceptance of our application as one in the same. Would you feel better if I used the words "invited to apply" (and schools aren't invited to apply without knowledge that both sides will accept).
 
What is hard to understand? I said the "formal" vote came after. The way it was done in 2003 was different than now. We had the invite. The invite was tendered based upon an informal poll so that the formal vote was a formality as you called it. There is no formal vote without an invite. We were invited, that was the only point. As to this time, the formal invite also came after they knew we would accpet and the only thing formal was being asked to apply since we were already voted in (formal or not).

Semantics. The whole point was that OPA said that the ACC can change their mind today and we could get left out. What everyone is saying is that this time is different because we were already voted in. That is what the whole discussion was about and it turned into a something else because the word "invite" can have a different meaning.
 
Semantics. The whole point was that OPA said that the ACC can change their mind today and we could get left out. What everyone is saying is that this time is different because we were already voted in. That is what the whole discussion was about and it turned into a something else because the word "invite" can have a different meaning.

What is different this tell vs last time is that I am sure some kind of paperwork has been signed off by both sides. So yes, I agree that there is probably no way at this point that it can be undone without us wanting it to and having to pay the penalties (which isn't going to happen).

Sent from my DROIDX
 
We had an invite. Nothing else happens without an invite, acceptance and the knowledge that we would be accepted. That vote was 7-2. You and King are trying to use invite and acceptance of our application as one in the same. Would you feel better if I used the words "invited to apply" (and schools aren't invited to apply without knowledge that both sides will accept).

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Yes: the ACC clearly "invited SU to apply" with 7 votes and I believe 2 abstentions. The expectation on the part of everyone was this was a done deal; SU said yes, we accept; as you say, conferences don't make invites to then reject them; in English: the ACC screwed up big time; the whole process was a complete fiasco.

However, OrangePA's point that started this discussion, was the ACC might now uninvite SU as it did in 2003. This is a complete misunderstanding of what happened then and now. In 2003, the ACC invited SU to apply and then changed it's mind. In 2011 the ACC formally and officially voted to include SU into the conference. SU is not going to be "uninvited"; nor is SU going to be kicked out because the Big East or some school or schools is disappointed about what happened.

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More clarification from your quoted source:

"John Swofford's opening statement:
"This is the third and concluding visit that our conference visitation teams have made to the three institutions... This visit, as Debbie said, and I would certainly concur, has gone extraordinarily well and been very well received by those representing the ACC... Certainly, you can learn things from looking at numbers and looking at sports sponsorships and all of the kinds of things you can put on paper, but I think coming here for a site visit and having the opportunity to visit the campus, to get to know people, not only in the athletic department, but the chancellor's office, the provost's office, the admissions, the student affairs office -- all of those kinds of things go into a decision by Syracuse and by the Atlantic Coast Conference as to whether or not this is a good marriage and whether or not this is something that would be positive for the three institutions as well as the existing nine institutions that are currently in the ACC to come together as 12 to meet the demands of the future in intercollegiate athletics. These visits and this process are what that's all about in determining the end result of whether this is a good step for us to take. This visit helps us along the way in getting to that point."

"What we will do is to return and, in fairly short order, our presidents will convene by conference call in all probability to hear reports about each of the three site visits. Those reports will be given by a faculty representative that has been on each of the visit. It will be from three different people. In addition, I think there will be conversations among our presidents with Chancellor Shaw, Father Leahy (Boston College) and President Shalala (Miami). At that point, you identify any lingering questions that the three schools might have or the ACC might have that we may need to address together. Ultimately, you reach a point of making a decision. Along with that decision, if it is in the affirmative, a timing decision as to when this might take place. I can't tell you exactly when all of that would happen. I guess I would say it would be in the foreseeable future rather than the distant future."
 
7. So are you saying RU will be back to where they were for most of the past century? Has their been another program that has ridden on other coattails without actually contributing to anything themselves more than RU?

Century?

Rutgers had been losing football games since 1870, Coincidence? :)
 
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Yes: the ACC clearly "invited SU to apply" with 7 votes and I believe 2 abstentions. The expectation on the part of everyone was this was a done deal; SU said yes, we accept; as you say, conferences don't make invites to then reject them; in English: the ACC screwed up big time; the whole process was a complete fiasco.

The bottom line is this. The press release had been written. We got invited, accepted, but got screwed by Warner before anything was signed.
 
The bottom line is this. The press release had been written. We got invited, accepted, but got screwed by Warner before anything was signed.

Actually, the real bottom line (with regard to this thread) is: the ACC is not going to pull SU's offer this time, because the scenarios between now and 2003 are completely different.
 

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