Starting Line-up in the Fall

[iommi]

My biggest concern with Coleman's development is that his feet seem to be mired in cement. He has no explosion and lift and plays below the rim. Hopefully, he's shedding some pounds and doing some drills to help in this regard.

 

[CU44SE]

My biggest concern with Coleman's development is that his feet seem to be mired in cement. He has no explosion and lift and plays below the rim. Hopefully, he's shedding some pounds and doing some drills to help in this regard.

I would counter that point with examples of Sullinger and Blair. They have very similar builds as Coleman and both did not play above the rim. Yet they were very effective players. Coleman just needs to slow down, and keep the ball high. He was not used to the height or speed of the college game, and i believe he will be very good this year.

 

[iommi]

I would counter that point with examples of Sullinger and Blair. They have very similar builds as Coleman and both did not play above the rim. Yet they were very effective players. Coleman just needs to slow down, and keep the ball high. He was not used to the height or speed of the college game, and i believe he will be very good this year.

I agree in that it drove me mad last year when he constantly pounded the ball on the deck. I think Francis compared his game to Sean May; I'd sign up for that kind of college career. Hopefully, he's working on his footwork and some post moves and is losing some body fat. He could be a solid player for sure.

 

[iommi]

I would counter that point with examples of Sullinger and Blair. They have very similar builds as Coleman and both did not play above the rim. Yet they were very effective players. Coleman just needs to slow down, and keep the ball high. He was not used to the height or speed of the college game, and i believe he will be very good this year.

One thing I will counter is that Coleman needs "to slow down." If anything, he needs to speed up. He was too slow to get his shot up. He needs to learn to catch the ball in a scoring position, keep the ball high (as you said) and go right up with it. It's when he takes too lomg, bounces the ball once or twice, lowers his front shoulder and eventually goes up that was causing him issues.

 

[realorange]

I think at least part of the slow down comment is asking Coleman to slow down his thought process from semi-panic to real time game decisions. I believe he has the foot skills and natural ability. He just needs to put it in the proper context.

 

[SUintheVille]

Love the idea of G and Colemans energy off the bench but not sure that lineup will be able to put up points early on. Only two scorers and ones the pg which can get you off to a really bad start early. On the other hand we are talking about Tyler Ennis so it could work easily.

Gbinije will be a leader without that we could be even worse offensively chemistry wise then last year. No knock Cooney could be great this year but he won't be a second scoring option maybe a real solid 3rd(which is why I like him at pg). We need Gbinije to be a 2nd scoring option. If Grant becomes a solid 3rd scoring option I will be happy he was a 5th option last year inmo. Dajuan will be a solid 3rd scoring option and I wouldn't be surprised to see him as a 2nd (even early on). That makes Dajuan and Gbinije HUGER x-factors then Cooney/Grant on the offensive end and much more importantly offensive chemistry wise. And thats not saying Cooney and Grant won't be really important offensively either.

I understand your viewpoint. In my list of starters (Ennis, Cooney, Fair, Grant, Rak), I can concede that Gbinjie could start instead of Cooney. I just think Trevor, while disappointing last year, will be a lot better this year and starting will make him more confident and that much more effective. Then if trouble brews, G can come in to take his place as a big boost off the bench, and potentially take the starting role later if Cooney again disappoints.

 

[SUintheVille]

Original post: Ennis, Cooney, Fair, Grant, Rak. Cooney and Rak have more experience at their respective positions. Grant has too much to offer to keep him off the floor from the start. First 2 off the bench are Slilent G and Coleman.

The problem with the above is it means BMK would get 9th man minutes. Roberson would get more time than BMK because he would be backing up both forward positions.

I think JB will make an effort to give his 4 year program guy at least 10-15 mpg. The easiest and most logical way to do that would be to give Rak some time at pf.

Understood. Based on my original post above, I can't say how the minutes for non-starters will be distributed. We will have plenty of guys who can play (that's good!). Yes, BMK will get meaningful minutes. But I think Rak starts at center because this is where he was most effective and experienced last year. Plus, Rak does not possess the away-from-the-basket offensive game that Grant does (or as much explosiveness). We need the scoring. Rak is best down low with rebounds, dunks, blocks, and the short game.

 

[CU44SE]

One thing I will counter is that Coleman needs "to slow down." If anything, he needs to speed up. He was too slow to get his shot up. He needs to learn to catch the ball in a scoring position, keep the ball high (as you said) and go right up with it. It's when he takes too lomg, bounces the ball once or twice, lowers his front shoulder and eventually goes up that was causing him issues.

As realorange was saying, when I said slow down I was talking about his thought process. A lot of the times last year it seemed like he paniced when he touched the ball and rushed a shot and didnt even give it a chance. He got to excited, if he were to calm down and let the game come to him I believe he would be a lot more effective.

 

[iommi]

As realorange was saying, when I said slow down I was talking about his thought process. A lot of the times last year it seemed like he paniced when he touched the ball and rushed a shot and didnt even give it a chance. He got to excited, if he were to calm down and let the game come to him I believe he would be a lot more effective.

I was taking your post too literal. I agree with your point here; hopefully another year to mature willl help him but he needs to get in better shape. He seems to have a great motor so I have no doubt he's working hard in all aspects of his game.

 

[br801]

Name me one good shooter whose shooting motion started at his waist.

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Wyatt Earp

 

[Sgt Cuse]

Understood. Based on my original post above, I can't say how the minutes for non-starters will be distributed. We will have plenty of guys who can play (that's good!). Yes, BMK will get meaningful minutes. But I think Rak starts at center because this is where he was most effective and experienced last year. Plus, Rak does not possess the away-from-the-basket offensive game that Grant does (or as much explosiveness). We need the scoring. Rak is best down low with rebounds, dunks, blocks, and the short game.

Our exits in the last two NCAAT have been caused in large part by our disadvantage offensively at center - Sullinger and McGrady vs Rak/BMK. We need to stop that. I think the plan should be for DC2 to provide post offense. And once that post offense is here SU will be a NC contender. To get there JB needs to develop DC2. And he develops this post offense out of DC2 by starting him and feeding him. I can easily envision DC2 growing into an Arinze typer role, and the sooner the better. This is good justification to start DC2 at center.

If you start DC2 at center the question becomes who starts at pf between Grant and Rak. I think it should be Rak for the following reasons:
1. gets BMK time - he deserves it and JB probably wants him to have it. Also then has BMK play more than Roberson
2. gives JB an offensive weapon off the bench - Grant
3. makes it easy for JB to sub/play more people - which helps in a variety of ways.

 

[orangefan13]

Agree but Our last 2 losses in the ncaa tournament Mike and southerland had a awfull game and Dion/KJO with the loss of Fab on a bad foul shooting advantage. Mike couldn't adjust to the lateral defensive quickness of Michigan in the high post(which imo will be his biggest flaw in the nba early on), Southerland couldn't get open, and Dion forced layups but missed while OSU got brushed and went to the line.

Its like JB always said you live and die by your leaders. If you go back through the ncaa losses throughout the last decade our scoring leaders had bad to really bad games in a ncaa loss. Not just slightly below average. That excludes one or two players like Scoop and CJ last year, but not the other 3-4. We rarely to never lose if they play average.

I think Cooney will belong on the floor with Dajuan as the year goes on as he is a confident spot up shooter who didn't have the post isolation guy to help him out with that last year. Maybe its better to start Keita and Rak if Gbinije starts for that reason.

 

[tbonezone]

"I personally think his form is seriously flawed."


hey cooney wasn't just slightly off . he was often missing the rim completely. something wrong here.
if he shoots high 30's last year we mightta won the damn thing. and i'm totally not anti cooney.
i hope he shoots 40+ this season. just basing my opinion on what i saw versus what he might become.

 

[AlaskaSU]

Perhaps I'm wrong, but it seems that most of his shots were so off base that they made me cringe. They were not part way down and out, or rolling around the rim, or even hitting the rim at a decent angle. His shots were wild. All I can say is that he has a long way to go to reach 30% on 3's, let alone 35%. If MG cannot beat him out for a starting position I will be surprised. It certainly is possible that Cooney will improve but I want to see the improvement first before he gets most of the minutes at the 2. Based on last year, he is more likely to have negative net points than anyone else. On an offensively challenged team we cannot afford that. Despite the last play of the season, his driving ability is actually creative and decent, but in this day and age, if we are to be a serious contender, our shooting guard should have a reliable outside shot.

 

[reedny]

I think the bigger issue with Cooney is he is not viewed as a combo guard as I understand it, therefore he is only competing for minutes at the 2G and the guys he is competing with are longer faster athletes who are not bad shooters.

Exactly, which is why choosing between two 6'7" inexperienced players and Trevor Cooney to back up the point is more than a little disconcerting.

 

[Gabjon]

I would counter that point with examples of Sullinger and Blair. They have very similar builds as Coleman and both did not play above the rim. Yet they were very effective players. Coleman just needs to slow down, and keep the ball high. He was not used to the height or speed of the college game, and i believe he will be very good this year.

I would like to see DC2 play like Zack Randolph did at Mich St. half of his points were from offensive boards.

 

[Gabjon]

Exactly, which is why choosing between two 6'7" inexperienced players and Trevor Cooney to back up the point is more than a little disconcerting.

This is why Ron Patterson brought in per his interview with Mike Waters Ron believes he will be backing Tyler up.

 

[tbonezone]

hey if we can only find an arm to lazer-lob some long inbound passes to the rim we should be gold.

 

[Brooky03]

Vertical leaping and speed do not go hand and hand. Scoop and Devo both are very quick and can get by anybody, but never were very good leapers. Conversely Cooney can jump but he is not quick or fast so he is going going to struggle to get by people. Since that is not why he was recruited I don't see it as a big deal. His long shooting motion is a big deal. Name me one good shooter whose shooting motion started at his waist.

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I disagree about Cooney not being quick or fast. He may not be as quick laterally as we would want but I would bet money his straight-line speed/quickness is very good. And lateral quickness only really matters for defense. As far as offense is concerned, most moves don't require directly lateral movement. For example, a crossover is almost entirely dependent on how quickly you can dribble the ball back and forth, your feet barely move sideways.

Btw, I will agree that jumpers aren't ALWAYS great sprinters and vice versa, but it is true in probably 90% of cases because both involve pretty much the same muscles and require strong fast twitch muscle fibers. The cases where an athlete would be strong in one of the areas (jumping or sprinting) and relatively weak in the other would only exist if there was a pretty severe muscle imbalance. Sprinting requires much more hamstring recruitment, so a leaper with weak hamstrings would struggle. Jumping requires glutes and quads much more, so a sprinter who relies heavily on his hamstrings would struggle to be a great jumper. The vast majority of good sprinters and jumpers, though, are strong all around athletes who don't have severe enough muscle imbalances to make them significantly worse in their non-dominant activity. I haven't seen anything from Trevor that would suggest he's in the minority of one dimensional athletes, as it relates to these two areas.

Finally, Ray Allen brings the ball down before every 3-pointer I've ever seen him shoot. He's just quicker about it. If Cooney can speed up his motion, he'll be alright.

 

[tbonezone]

i'm no doc but i play hockey. i see a big difference between those with short explosion speed and full rink speed.

 

[SWC75]

Exactly, which is why choosing between two 6'7" inexperienced players and Trevor Cooney to back up the point is more than a little disconcerting.

Two 6-7 inexperienced players?

 

[Gabjon]

I disagree about Cooney not being quick or fast. He may not be as quick laterally as we would want but I would bet money his straight-line speed/quickness is very good. And lateral quickness only really matters for defense. As far as offense is concerned, most moves don't require directly lateral movement. For example, a crossover is almost entirely dependent on how quickly you can dribble the ball back and forth, your feet barely move sideways.

Btw, I will agree that jumpers aren't ALWAYS great sprinters and vice versa, but it is true in probably 90% of cases because both involve pretty much the same muscles and require strong fast twitch muscle fibers. The cases where an athlete would be strong in one of the areas (jumping or sprinting) and relatively weak in the other would only exist if there was a pretty severe muscle imbalance. Sprinting requires much more hamstring recruitment, so a leaper with weak hamstrings would struggle. Jumping requires glutes and quads much more, so a sprinter who relies heavily on his hamstrings would struggle to be a great jumper. The vast majority of good sprinters and jumpers, though, are strong all around athletes who don't have severe enough muscle imbalances to make them significantly worse in their non-dominant activity. I haven't seen anything from Trevor that would suggest he's in the minority of one dimensional athletes, as it relates to these two areas.

Finally, Ray Allen brings the ball down before every 3-pointer I've ever seen him shoot. He's just quicker about it. If Cooney can speed up his motion, he'll be alright.

Lol! At tge Ray Allen comparison!

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[OrangeDW]

The guy who couldn't play at Duke
will beat iut a rotation guy.
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He was a true freshman. Cooney couldn't play here as a true freshman either, which is why he redshirted. It happens at power programs.

 

[Brooky03]

Lol! At tge Ray Allen comparison!

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You asked me to name one great 3 point shooter who starts his motion at his waist. I named one of the greatest. So, what are you getting at? It's not as if I was comparing him to Cooney.

In fact, most great 3 point shooters start their shot at their waist. That's the key to developing a consistent jumper; start from the same spot every time. Where else would they start from? Their chest? lol.

Good shooters don't just catch the ball and shoot it from wherever the passer happened to throw it. They bring it to their starting point for their jumpshot. Cooney's starting point is not abnormally low. All that needs to change is the speed at which he gets the ball to it and the tempo of his release. These are not small changes but they're not insurmountable either. There is clearly an argument that his release needs to be quicker but I see nothing inherently flawed with him bringing the ball to his waist/abdomen.

 

[Gabjon]

You asked me to name one great 3 point shooter who starts his motion at his waist. I named one of the greatest. So, what are you getting at? It's not as if I was comparing him to Cooney.

In fact, most great 3 point shooters start their shot at their waist. That's the key to developing a consistent jumper; start from the same spot every time. Where else would they start from? Their chest? lol.

Good shooters don't just catch the ball and shoot it from wherever the passer happened to throw it. They bring it to their starting point for their jumpshot. Cooney's starting point is not abnormally low. All that needs to change is the speed at which he gets the ball to it and the tempo of his release. These are not small changes but they're not insurmountable either. There is clearly an argument that his release needs to be quicker but I see nothing inherently flawed with him bringing the ball to his waist/abdomen.

his motion is not from his waist not even close.