Status of Syracuse University football tackle Justin Pugh

[Orangeyes]

A priority question for Big East media day

 

[RMH44]

Thank you Dave Rahme.

 

[SUinNYC]

Hope this has a happy ending.

 

[RF2044]

Jesus christ...can't afford this loss.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Good to know we're staring some built in excuses in the face.

 

[OrangeMojo]

crap - I was thinking everything was fine after reading Nolan's article earlier today - how can you write an article like that without even getting an injury status on the top LT in the Big East?

 

[Orangeyes]

CBS picks up the story

 

[RF2044]

Good to know we're staring some built in excuses in the face.

Forget excuses--the only way to get past this cycle of sub-par OL play is showing demonstrable improvement as a unit on the field. It's going to be really tough for this unit to improve if the top player / LT is unavailable for a portion of camp / season.

Terrible news, if true. I'm so tired of our offense being so pedestrian, and the play of the OL is a huge culprit.

 

[LeMoyneCuse]

- how can you write an article like that without even getting an injury status on the top LT in the Big East?

Because you can't report a rumor, especially in the newspaper. It's unconfirmed, and it's likely Marrone wouldn't have talked.

Rahme didn't put out an article. That's a blog post. So he's allowed to speculate because he flat out says he's speculating.

It's a technicality really, but that may be why Nolan didn't mention the hurt.

 

[OrangeMojo]

Because you can't report a rumor, especially in the newspaper. It's unconfirmed, and it's likely Marrone wouldn't have talked.

Rahme didn't put out an article. That's a blog post. So he's allowed to speculate because he flat out says he's speculating.

It's a technicality really, but that may be why Nolan didn't mention the hurt.

then I'd think you'd mention the uncertainty instead of doing an article about how the three of them will be anchoring the line and helping out the new guys on the other side - which implies there isn't any uncertainty

 

[OrangeBlood]

Pugh is an All-American. We can not afford to lose him.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Forget excuses--the only way to get past this cycle of sub-par OL play is showing demonstrable improvement as a unit on the field. It's going to be really tough for this unit to improve if the top player / LT is unavailable for a portion of camp / season.

Terrible news, if true. I'm so tired of our offense being so pedestrian, and the play of the OL is a huge culprit.

I'm just fully prepared now to be told that the system isn't the problem if we get off to a slow start because our OL's best guy isn't playing.

 

[RF2044]

I'm just fully prepared now to be told that the system isn't the problem if we get off to a slow start because our OL's best guy isn't playing.

The issue I have [and have always had, as you know] with complaints about the system is that it is such an oversimplification of the systemic problem on offense. As if calling some different plays and using some different formations is all it would take to turn our lackluster offensive production into something above average.

Look, running any type of consistent offense requires 11 solid players working in tandem. Subpar protection up front leads to a lot of problems, and forces the coaches to do things that aren't ideal--like running bunch / max protect formations, calling too many quick slants just to ensure the ball gets out before the pass rush blows up the LOS, not going for it on 4th and short because our coaches know that the OL can't be counted upon to move the pile and pick up that yard or two we need, etc. Defenses also were able to sell out to bring pressure and take their chances with individual coverage because they knew our OL wouldn't be able to let plays develop, and because Nassib couldn't burn teams deep when the pass rush was in his face. We had problems elsewhere, as well--an inconsistent WR corps that lacked depth and the ability to get separation, a QB who didn't connect on deep throws, lack of play makers [in general] was another problem. But a below average OL that didn't pass block nor run block particularly well was a huge impediment. If we could fix this issue and this issue alone, I'm guessing that the play of the offense would improve quite a bit.

I'm not saying that the OL is the entire issue on offense, but it is a BIG issue. Perhaps the biggest of all the issues plaguing our offensive production. And Pugh's absence would only make a poor situation even worse.

 

[OrangeXtreme]

The Score 1260‏@TheScore1260
Doug Marrone just told @BrentAxeMedia that Justin Pugh will not partcipate in pre-season camp due to an upper body injury

Brent Axe‏@BrentAxeMedia
Doug Marrone told me today LT Justin Pugh is out of training camp w/ an upper body injury. WR Alec Lemon/LB Marquis Spruill are good to go.

 

[Orangeyes]

Pugh is an All-American. We can not afford to lose him.

Didn't we lose 5 straight at the end of the season with him in the lineup?

 

[Dmcnabbrules]

At least Spruill and Lemon are ok. We heard good things about Hickey coming in. Phillips was decent in his one start and that was two years ago.

 

[orangesox44]

Marrone also said they hope to have Pugh back sometime in September, probably later in the month.

 

[ElwoodJBlues]

Pugh is going to be tough to replace. I'm excited to see Hickey play though. Marrone mentioned how his development was similar to Pugh's following his first year.

 

[kcsu]

Chill guys. Macky is up to 5-8 185 pounds and is going to take on both positions

 

[OttoinGrotto]

But a below average OL that didn't pass block nor run block particularly well was a huge impediment. If we could fix this issue and this issue alone, I'm guessing that the play of the offense would improve quite a bit.

I'm not saying that the OL is the entire issue on offense, but it is a BIG issue. Perhaps the biggest of all the issues plaguing our offensive production. And Pugh's absence would only make a poor situation even worse.

We'll agree to disagree to some extent on the parts I cut out from your comment, with my only statement being that I think more spread formations would be helpful but a bigger issue is the pacing of our offense and lack of testicular fortitude in calling a play on 4th. If you don't believe you can get a yard or less on 4th down, what exactly is the plan on all other downs and distances? What's the point of even playing the game? Just go down swinging.

End rant.

As to the part I bolded above, my big frustration has been the lack of accountability for fixing the OL issue. Yes, we've had talent limitations. We've also had guys like Speller, McKenzie and Tucker B., guys that were starters, leave the team with eligibility on the table. Even if they lose their starting positions they could help with the depth issues. Our plan for center last season was to start an undersized true sophomore - there wasn't any alternative. Marrone came in with a rep as an offensive line guru, but it's been an extremely problematic unit under his tenure because we had limited numbers, limited talent, were playing guys too young, but there's a reluctance to ask why.

So I took a sick comfort in knowing that our best OL is going to be out for a little bit, because now we can blame underperformance on that and ignore other things. At what point can we expect our offensive line to be good? Probably not this season. Next season? The one after that?

 

[billsin01]

We'll agree to disagree to some extent on the parts I cut out from your comment, with my only statement being that I think more spread formations would be helpful but a bigger issue is the pacing of our offense and lack of testicular fortitude in calling a play on 4th. If you don't believe you can get a yard or less on 4th down, what exactly is the plan on all other downs and distances? What's the point of even playing the game? Just go down swinging.

End rant.

As to the part I bolded above, my big frustration has been the lack of accountability for fixing the OL issue. Yes, we've had talent limitations. We've also had guys like Speller, McKenzie and Tucker B., guys that were starters, leave the team with eligibility on the table. Even if they lose their starting positions they could help with the depth issues. Our plan for center last season was to start an undersized true sophomore - there wasn't any alternative. Marrone came in with a rep as an offensive line guru, but it's been an extremely problematic unit under his tenure because we had limited numbers, limited talent, were playing guys too young, but there's a reluctance to ask why.

So I took a sick comfort in knowing that our best OL is going to be out for a little bit, because now we can blame underperformance on that and ignore other things. At what point can we expect our offensive line to be good? Probably not this season. Next season? The one after that?

Yeah, it's hard to complain about depth issues when you send a third of your roster packing. I'm not saying marrone was complaining but all of us here talk about depth and far too often fail to point out that a bunch of players were jettisoned. I also agree that system questions come into play when you start getting into year 4 or 5 of not really producing much offense.

 

[dollarbill44]

a bigger issue is the pacing of our offense

I completely agree with this statement. We were most effective offensively last year when the offense operated at a higher tempo. I don't even mean no-huddle, just more up-tempo - run a play, huddle up, call a play, get to the line and run the next play. Unfortunately, most of the time it was huddle up for 10 seconds, walk to the line, take 5 seconds to get set, stay set for 5 more seconds and snap the ball with 5 seconds or less on the clock. When it was boom-boom-boom, good things happened more often than not. We don't run nearly the number of plays on offense that even Marrone has stated is his goal.

Oregon has the right idea with the tempo they run. I think you can get by with lesser O-line talent in a quick-tempo offense.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

I completely agree with this statement. We were most effective offensively last year when the offense operated at a higher tempo. I don't even mean no-huddle, just more up-tempo - run a play, huddle up, call a play, get to the line and run the next play. Unfortunately, most of the time it was huddle up for 10 seconds, walk to the line, take 5 seconds to get set, stay set for 5 more seconds and snap the ball with 5 seconds or less on the clock. When it was boom-boom-boom, good things happened more often than not. We don't run nearly the number of plays on offense that even Marrone has stated is his goal.

Oregon has the right idea with the tempo they run. I think you can get by with lesser O-line talent in a quick-tempo offense.

Yup. Put aside the limitations of our roster numbers and talent, and think about how much time we give the defense to get ready for what we throw at them. It just compounds the problem, and it frustrates me because that's something we can control. We have made the choice to play slower in the interest of burning clock, but you know, we're not even good at the TOP game.

 

[RF2044]

We'll agree to disagree to some extent on the parts I cut out from your comment, with my only statement being that I think more spread formations would be helpful but a bigger issue is the pacing of our offense and lack of testicular fortitude in calling a play on 4th. If you don't believe you can get a yard or less on 4th down, what exactly is the plan on all other downs and distances? What's the point of even playing the game? Just go down swinging.

End rant.

As to the part I bolded above, my big frustration has been the lack of accountability for fixing the OL issue. Yes, we've had talent limitations. We've also had guys like Speller, McKenzie and Tucker B., guys that were starters, leave the team with eligibility on the table. Even if they lose their starting positions they could help with the depth issues. Our plan for center last season was to start an undersized true sophomore - there wasn't any alternative. Marrone came in with a rep as an offensive line guru, but it's been an extremely problematic unit under his tenure because we had limited numbers, limited talent, were playing guys too young, but there's a reluctance to ask why.

So I took a sick comfort in knowing that our best OL is going to be out for a little bit, because now we can blame underperformance on that and ignore other things. At what point can we expect our offensive line to be good? Probably not this season. Next season? The one after that?

No question--formations and tempo can make a difference in terms of how a defense reacts. But that is also contingent on having playmakers that the defense needs to account for. Last year, they weren't afraid of anybody we had, so they sold out to exploit our major weakness [ie, the offensive line] and took their chances, gambling that we wouldn't be able to make them pay for bringing everything most of the time.

If I had to rank this offense's problems, I'd say:

(1) OL play
(2) lack of playmakers



(3) formations / the system

And it isn't even close in my mind. Field a competently functioning offensive line and some playmakers that the defense fears and has to account for, and watch how our offensive production would jump based upon just those two factors alone. We're not quite there yet with personnel, but I'm really excited to see a WR corps that has some speed, with players who can turn the corner and make something happen and make plays in space and make people miss. We're trending in the right direction.

"At what point can we expect our offensive line to be good."

I think it is a reasonable expectation that we should be able to field a competent OL every year. We had the worst OL in the history of college football most years under GRob, and the results haven't been much better under Marrone. Like you, I was hoping that his expertise / experiential background coaching OL would help SU overcome what is really a chronic, traditional weakness we've had--even dating back to some of our best teams. Back then, we just had QBs who could make plays with their feet / on the move, and the OL issues weren't recognized by many fans.

Here's something to take sick comfort in--we've put together two solid classes in a row of OL prospects. All of the HS guys who came in from the class of 2011 redshirted, and it is my expectation that we'll see the same thing with the class of 2012. The pipeline has been replenished in that regard--and we have nowhere to go but up.

In terms of when to expect improvement, I was hoping that this would FINALLY be the year. Pugh's absence--with all due respect to people who want to harp on the system--scares the living out of me, because he was going to be this year's anchor. Both in terms of him being the top O-lineman, but also because he's the left tackle. I guess we'll find out whether players like Curtis and Hickey have the chops to rise to the occasion, and we'll find out how good of an OL coach Marrone is this year. If players like the two I just mentioned, plus Philips, Trudo, Foy, Alexander, etc. emerge as contributors, then the play of the OL might go from decidedly subpar to somewhere approaching average, and the offense could be significantly improved. If not...

 

[RF2044]

Yeah, it's hard to complain about depth issues when you send a third of your roster packing. I'm not saying marrone was complaining but all of us here talk about depth and far too often fail to point out that a bunch of players were jettisoned. I also agree that system questions come into play when you start getting into year 4 or 5 of not really producing much offense.

That perspective overlooks the benefit that came with changing the program's culture--one of the most important things that happened when Marrone showed up.

And I don't think it was players "jettisoned" as much as it was player's self-selecting out after seeing what would be required of them under the new coaching staff. There's no doubt in my mind that a player like Speller would have helped us if he hadn't left. But if he wasn't willing to put in the work and buy into the culture that Marrone demanded, then we were probably better off letting him walk. And no hard feelings to those players--that wasn't what they signed up for when they came to SU under a different coaching staff.

That attrition hurt us--no question. But I DEFINITELY think it was worthwhile in other respects.