Style of play in NBA Finals

[Newhouser]

What I think makes the Warriors so great is that if you plucked Curry and Durant off this Warrior team, I think they would still make the playoffs as a mid-range seed in the West. They would still have two Top 20 players in Klay and Draymond, and an abundance of supporting talent. Can you say that about any other team in the history of the league?

I like Klay Thompson a lot and I think on any other team his stock rises. I think Draymond's yap gets him more respect for his game than maybe it deserves. I think if he is on any other team he is a good player, but personally I don't think he is Top 20. Perfect example of player's skill set finding the right situation.

 

[dasher]

Today's rules. Where it's world-class athletes out in open space being athletic (the way basketball was intended).

We never got to see that Celtic team play under those rules. And I agree that the warriors couldn't have played the Celtics team under the old rules. The Celts were too big and powerful.

 

[OrangeDW]

Idk. Did those teams ever outscore their opponents by 17 points as they went through the playoffs? I think the early oughts Lakers had a run similar to this, but they didn't take the regular season seriously.

GS has been the incredible, but San Antonio may have taken a game or two off them if Leonard didn't get hurt. They were winning game 1 soundly until Kawhi went out.

 

[Eric15]

Early 80s Lakers had a still prime Kareem, prime Magic, Wilkes, Nixon, a hall of famer like McAdoo as a role player off the bench. Plus guys like Cooper. 86 Celtics when you add a rejuvinated Bill Walton off the bench to the Bird, McHale, Parish, Johnson core. Those teams stack up to anyone. Though with less teams in the 80s, a stacked roster like that was seemingly more likely.

But the name of the game is putting points on the board. How would these teams that weren't constructed to shoot threes compete with a team like the 2017 Warriors who have a seemingly endless supply of elite shooters?

 

[Knicks411]

No. He couldn't. But that door swings both ways. Who on the warriors is going to guard McHale down low. And no warrior could have guarded Bird.

It absolutely goes both ways. I think Durant does a lot better on Bird than vice versa. A lot. Durant is a very good defender. Bird would struggle immensely with his length.

Dray does a decent job on McHale, as reasonable as you could expect. The biggest key is how the teams matchup; does Boston get GS to go big, or goes GS run Boston ragged and they can't play their 3 big guys together. I'd lean toward the latter.

 

[OrangeDW]

But we aren't comparing the 1986 Celtics to other teams in 1986, we are comparing them to the 2017 Warriors.

How would the mid-80s possibly have enough athleticism and offensive firepower to run with Golden State? Boston attempted 393 threes in 1986. The Warriors made 982 threes this year. Boston would be completely overwhelmed.

Walton isn't really relevant here -- he averaged 8 points per game that year.

Which is why it's impossible to compare across eras because both teams were built to succeed within the style of play in the league at that time.

 

[Eric15]

Which is why it's impossible to compare across eras because both teams were built to succeed within the style of play in the league at that time.

But the quality of basketball isn't remaining constant, it's evolving. Speed, strength, conditioning, agility, outside shooting, complexity of offensive and defensive schemes are so much more sophisticated than 30 years ago.

30 years from now, there will be a team that would run these Warriors off the floor.

 

[Newhouser]

Interesting series for LeBron - he is still the man, but I think for the first time he is seeing that the gap is getting smaller and smaller and the next wave is coming and gaining on him. Also he has to be thinking how he would have re-built this team if he could have a re-do. Forcing the Thompson contract and the Love deal. Frankly they were lucky to get 1 title out of this group. Also this is the first time I can remember in his career LBJ can't guard someone. He can slow Durant, but he can't stop him and last year when the warriors O vanished they had no place to turn. Durant eliminates scoring droughts.

Cavs need to slow it up and muck it up.

 

[texascpa]

I love the "ugliness" of college basketball. That's what makes it so unpredictable and tense. Everyone had predicted this series since the beginning of the season, everyone was complaining about the unevenness of the playoffs, and now one team is dominating the other supposed best team in the league. No parity, no unpredictability. Boring.

 

[Newhouser]

But the quality of basketball isn't remaining constant, it's evolving. Speed, strength, conditioning, agility, outside shooting, complexity of offensive and defensive schemes are so much more sophisticated than 30 years ago.

30 years from now, there will be a team that would run these Warriors off the floor.

I agree. Do you think it holds for college hoops too. Do you think this years UNC team could have beaten the Worthy, Jordan, Perkins team for instance?

 

[dasher]

Which is why it's impossible to compare across eras because both teams were built to succeed within the style of play in the league at that time.

I think Eric has a point. Players from the 1980's are not as athletic as the players today. However, we are talking about one team vs another team. And that Celtic team was ridiculous how good they were. The Warriors have nothing at center that even comes close to comparing to Parrish and Walton. There would be games where the Celts couldn't keep up with the Warriors. But there would be games where the Celts would just over power the Warriors. That is what Eric doesn't seem to get. The Celtics would have forced the warriors to play their game some of the time. no one on the Celtics could have stayed with Durant. he would have done great. But Denis Johnson was an amazing defender in the back court.

 

[dasher]

I agree. Do you think it holds for college hoops too. Do you think this years UNC team could have beaten the Worthy, Jordan, Perkins team for instance?[/QU
The teams from the 80's were much better than the teams today. But that is because they were much older than the teams to day. On average. great guys stayed 4 years in the 80's. Now they leave after 1.

 

[Eric15]

I think Eric has a point. Players from the 1980's are not as athletic as the players today. However, we are talking about one team vs another team. And that Celtic team was ridiculous on how good they were. The warriors have nothing at center that even comes close to comparing to Parrish and Walton. There would be games where the Celts couldn't keep up with the warriors. But there would be games where the Celts would just over power the warriors. that is what Eric doesn't seem to get. The Celtics would have forced the warriors to play their game some of the time. no one on the Celtics could have stayed with Durant. he owuld have done great. But Denis Johnson was an amazing defender in the back court.

Dasher, Bill Walton was an absolute shell of himself in 1986. We are not talking about 1977 Walton.

Are you telling me that 7'0", 270 lb freakishly athletic Javale McGee wouldn't be able to at least somewhat contain 6'10", 210 lb Kevin McHale? And I say that with total appreciation that McHale is one of the most talented post players in league history.

 

[Knicks411]

Dasher, Bill Walton was an absolute shell of himself in 1986. We are not talking about 1977 Walton.

Are you telling me that 7'0", 270 lb freakishly athletic Javale McGee wouldn't be able to at least somewhat contain 6'10", 210 lb Kevin McHale? And I say that with total appreciation that McHale is one of the most talented post players in league history.

Maybe, but the Warriors aren't the Warriors if Javale is playing 30 minutes a night to combat McHale.

 

[Eric15]

Maybe, but the Warriors aren't the Warriors if Javale is playing 30 minutes a night to combat McHale.

I should have said Draymond Green, arguably the best defensive player in the league, on McHale.

 

[IthacaBarrel]

No. They aren't. The Celtic team in I think '86 lost one game all year at home. They had a front court of Robert Parrish, Larry Bird , Kevin McHale and a healthy Bill Walton. Denis Johnson and Danny Ainge in the back court for defense. i love the warriors and they might have won a series. But to think the Celtics weren't in the same league is silly.

And the style of play is so different, it's really and apples and oranges comparison. I agree with you I certainly wouldn't call the Warriors the greatest of all time quite yet. In addition, I highly doubt LeBron is going to just roll over at home.

 

[Knicks411]

I should have said Draymond Green, arguably the best defensive player in the league, on McHale.

Ha yes, that one works a little better.

 

[OttoinGrotto]

Also he has to be thinking how he would have re-built this team if he could have a re-do. Forcing the Thompson contract and the Love deal. Frankly they were lucky to get 1 title out of this group.

Stealing one last season validates the moves they made, but yeah, they gave up their flexibility to get Lebron the guys he said he needed.

 

[dasher]

Dasher, Bill Walton was an absolute shell of himself in 1986. We are not talking about 1977 Walton.

Are you telling me that 7'0", 270 lb freakishly athletic Javale McGee wouldn't be able to at least somewhat contain 6'10", 210 lb Kevin McHale? And I say that with total appreciation that McHale is one of the most talented post players in league history.

You are 100% wrong. Not 90% Walton was terrific in 1986. Did you watch any games? He had a great season. If you think Walton was a shell of himself in 1986, you have no idea what you are talking about. OrangeDW said Walton was rejuvenated and that was the perfect description. Walton was a very good player in 1986.

 

[Cusefan0307]

I'm generally of the belief sports get better over time, not worse. It's like the argument people try to make when they say Montana is better than Brady in football. Like everything else we evolve and get better. There's a reason the shooting is better now. The interior defense got so good for a period that players adjusted and now we are in the best shooting era ever.

 

[OrangeDW]

90s Bulls would be an interesting matchup with GS as they had 4 excellent defenders in Jordan, Pippen, Harper, and Rodman. Their one weakness was at center, but GS couldn't take advantage of that.

 

[Cusefan0307]

GS has been the incredible, but San Antonio may have taken a game or two off them if Leonard didn't get hurt. They were winning game 1 soundly until Kawhi went out.

I think healthy San Antonio is better than Cleveland. They at least have guys that can make Durant/Curry work. Fully healthy they put Leonard on Durant and Danny Green on Curry. The biggest issue with Cleveland like you have seen all year is they are not good defensively.

 

[dasher]

I'm generally of the belief sports get better over time, not worse. It's like the argument people try to make when they say Montana is better than Brady in football. Like everything else we evolve and get better. There's a reason the shooting is better now. The interior defense got so good for a period that players adjusted and now we are in the best shooting era ever.

No question this is correct. But that doesn't mean that one team couldn't be better than another team. Or one player better than another. I've seen Kershaw. He isn't as talented as Pedro or Koufax. Sorry. He just isn't. But, Kershaw on average certainly pitches to better players than Pedro or Koufax did. I'm ignoring that Pedro pitched to a D.H. instead of a pitcher. the basketball players today are better than the players of the 1980's. My objection to Erics thesis is that he said that the Celtics would just be overwhelmed. Some of the time maybe. But they had amazing talent that played in any generation that we have lived though.

 

[Knicks411]

Stealing one last season validates the moves they made, but yeah, they gave up their flexibility to get Lebron the guys he said he needed.

Not sure they win the title without Love last year, even though he wasn't awesome in the finals. And once you make that move, your flexibility is pretty much gone no matter what. Thompson has been a pretty key piece for them as well.

 

[Eric15]

No question this is correct. But that doesn't mean that one team couldn't be better than another team. Or one player better than another. I've seen Kershaw. He isn't as talented as Pedro or Koufax. Sorry. He just isn't. But, Kershaw on average certainly pitches to better players than Pedro or Koufax did. I'm ignoring that Pedro pitched to a D.H. instead of a pitcher. the basketball players today are better than the players of the 1980's. My objection to Erics thesis is that he said that the Celtics would just be overwhelmed. Some of the time maybe. But they had amazing talent that played in any generation that we have lived though.

My reasoning for using the word overwhelmed is specifically because of three point shooting. The stat I gave before: that the Warriors made triple the number of threes than Boston attempted simply can't be overstated. It doesn't take away from the true greatness of those 86 Celtics that they would have tremendous difficulty playing this particular GS team.