SU Explores new Medical School | Page 2 | Syracusefan.com

SU Explores new Medical School

The article seemed to make it clear that this propos was for a medcal school t train doctos to work at VA's

I have no idea about duplication. I know that there are five medical schools in Philadelphia and eight (at least) in the NY metropolitan area. Obviously denser pops and not literally next door to one another.
Well, ok ... sure 8 hospitals for 10M ppl. However, as you point out, this seems more like a Medical school devoted to VA doctor training .. not a full-blown medical school but something more specialized, perhaps to work with SUNY Upstate.

Maybe if I actually read Syverud's essay I can see what he's up to.
 
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The article seemed to make it clear that this propos was for a medcal school t train doctos to work at VA's

I have no idea about duplication. I know that there are five medical schools in Philadelphia and eight (at least) in the NY metropolitan area. Obviously denser pops and not literally next door to one another.

This, to me, seems like an attempt by su to parlay state and federal funds to further their own research goals. I do not believe it is the best way to address a physician shortage. Unfortunately, the Vet Admin seems most concerned about PR wins at the moment and so this has gained traction.
 
That misses the point. The shortages are not specific to the va and the surgical specially shortages are nearly always furthered by individual surgical academies (ensures high demand). Why wouldn't any physician or physician extender shortage be remedied through an already existing system. The fact that there is such limited collaboration between upstate and su is the problem.
Given SU's interest and the fact that Upstate is a part of the SUNY system, I'm thinking whatever happens going forward, will happen because Cuomo is on board.
 
You know, the VA gets . . . . on by a lot of people and I don't agree with all of it. I'm an active-duty veteran and many moons (a little over a decade now) ago when I was attending school on the hill, I found a lump in my neck. I went to the VA in December and they did some immediate bloodwork and poking and prodding. They scheduled me for a biopsy in January and based on the results (benign, but growing) I had an appointment the first week of March. I was in and out in 24 hours and paid nothing out of pocket (since I was a broke student on the GI-Bill, I was eligible for free-ish medical care). I had a fantastic (all things considered) experience with the VA and would go back in a minute. I've spent time at other hospitals for other things, but that was a very good experience.
Great experience for you. Our son has had just the opposite. 100% disabled, he'll go to the VA and more than once find they have canceled his appointment after he traveled 100 miles. His doctor, or doctor of the month, sits in front of a computer and never touches him. Dispenses meds and says "see how that works and come back in 6 months." I could go on, but you get the idea. Fortunately for him, he is moving to an area where there appears to be a very good VA.
 
That misses the point. The shortages are not specific to the va and the surgical specially shortages are nearly always furthered by individual surgical academies (ensures high demand). Why wouldn't any physician or physician extender shortage be remedied through an already existing system. The fact that there is such limited collaboration between upstate and su is the problem.

I'd like you to back this up, but my point overall was that you were mistaken when you said that the physician shortage is limited only to primary care doctors. I could've also pointed to myown experience working in a hospital, but anecdotes.
 
Hmmm... so I read the article and the essay. The essay's very well put together. I wanted to salute when i was done reading it. There's appeal there, for sure. But still, 2 medical schools right next to each other .. both of them sending residents to the Syracuse VA? The accreditation people are going to make sure that SU's program will include all the standard medical school curriculum requirements .. so there's definitely going to be duplication with SUNY despite SU's "electives" in VA training. SUNY Upstate can't be thrilled.

By Edit: And on cue:
http://www.syracuse.com/health/inde...n_for_two_medical_schools.html#incart_m-rpt-1
 
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Hmmm... so I read the article and the essay. The essay's very well put together. I wanted to salute when i was done reading it. There's appeal there, for sure. But still, 2 medical schools right next to each other .. both of them sending residents to the Syracuse VA? The accreditation people are going to make sure that SU's program will include all the standard medical school curriculum requirements .. so there's definitely going to be duplication with SUNY despite SU's "electives" in VA training. SUNY Upstate can't be thrilled.

Do they all have to go to Syracuse's VA?
 
I'd like you to back this up, but my point overall was that you were mistaken when you said that the physician shortage is limited only to primary care doctors. I could've also pointed to myown experience working in a hospital, but anecdotes.[/QUOTE

I can assure you that no such academy will acknowledge their role in limiting residency spots. It is fact, however, that physicians control the numbers of residency spots.

"In his classic book Capitalism and Freedom, Milton Friedman describes the American Medical Association (AMA) as the “strongest trade union in the United States” and documents the ways in which the AMA vigorously restricts competition. The Council on Medical Education and Hospitals of the AMA approves both medical schools and hospitals. By restricting the number of approved medical schools and the number of applicants to those schools, the AMA limits the supply of physicians. In the same way that OPEC was able to quadruple the price of oil in the 1970s by restricting output, the AMA has increased their fees by restricting the supply of physicians."

my (perhaps anecdotal) point was that a shortage of pcp's often may have the downstream effect on the shortage of surgeons.

also, creating a new medical school to address a shortage of orthos to do joint replacement for boomers is reactionary and non-sensical. by the time these physicians were trained, the boomers' need will have come and gone.
 
Do they all have to go to Syracuse's VA?
Well, that's the logical place for SU to send its residents ... not sure about SUNY. However, it seems from the article that SUNY relies on residencies there. That'll have to be worked out (for example, SU would need to send some of its residents to SUNY Upstate Hospital). So, definitely going to be challenges here for SUNY, and many for SU (planning, designing, funding, siting, building, staffing and running a medical school ... weeee).
 
Well, that's the logical place for SU to send it's residents ... not sure about SUNY. But it seems from the article that SUNY relies on residencies there. So .. here we go. I'm sure it could be worked out, but definitely going to be some challenges here for SUNY, and many for SU (planning, designing, funding, siting, building, running ... weeee).

You can do residency anywhere. You're not limited by where you went to med school. I did mine in Ohio after going to school on the East Coast.

At least that's the case traditionally. SU is trying something new here, so it may not apply.
 
You can do residency anywhere. You're not limited by where you went to med school. I did mine in Ohio after going to school on the East Coast.

At least that's the case traditionally. SU is trying something new here, so it may not apply.
True, the residencies could be anywhere (following completion of the medical degree). But it seems like SUNY Upstate likes to be able to place some residents at the Syracuse VA ... so there'll be more competition for those spots since SU's program includes mandatory VA work (although SU medical grad's could theoretically go to any VA facility).

I also wonder about medical students going on hospital rotations (or rotations at the VA center) during med. school training, as opposed to residency? So that will require more rotations at SUNY upstate.

Speaking of which, if the medical school cooperates with SU, there might be opportunities for the SUNY medical center. For example, given SU's emphasis on treatment of military injuries -- there will be a need for expansion of related hospital care units (TBI's, prosthetics, neuro-rahabilitation, etc.). So both medical schools, and SUNY Upstate hospital (not to mention Vets) could benefit.
 
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I can assure you that no such academy will acknowledge their role in limiting residency spots. It is fact, however, that physicians control the numbers of residency spots.

"In his classic book Capitalism and Freedom, Milton Friedman describes the American Medical Association (AMA) as the “strongest trade union in the United States” and documents the ways in which the AMA vigorously restricts competition. The Council on Medical Education and Hospitals of the AMA approves both medical schools and hospitals. By restricting the number of approved medical schools and the number of applicants to those schools, the AMA limits the supply of physicians. In the same way that OPEC was able to quadruple the price of oil in the 1970s by restricting output, the AMA has increased their fees by restricting the supply of physicians."

my (perhaps anecdotal) point was that a shortage of pcp's often may have the downstream effect on the shortage of surgeons.

also, creating a new medical school to address a shortage of orthos to do joint replacement for boomers is reactionary and non-sensical. by the time these physicians were trained, the boomers' need will have come and gone.

So no facts, just a fifty year old book.

Somehow 12 new medical schools have opened in the last six years, in spite of the AM A.

And if the AM A is such a powerful union, why have reimbursements steadily declined over the past 20 years?
 
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So no facts, just a fifty year old book.

Somehow 12 new medical schools have opened in the last six years, in spite of the AM A.

And if the AM A is such a powerful union, why have reimbursements steadily declined over the past 20 years?


http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ma...50498142331&action=collapse_widget&id=8589671

"Overwhelmingly, the greatest shortages of doctors today are primary care physicians and other generalists. According to a recent survey sponsored by the independent congressional agency MedPAC, finding a primary care doctor is highly problematic even for Americans with good health insurance. Among fully insured Americans over the age of fifty who went looking for a primary care doctor last year, fully one out of seven report it was a “big problem.” This is double the percent who report having trouble finding a specialist. Even in affluent parts of the country, finding a primary care doctor who is still taking new patients can require as much scheming as getting your three-year-old into Montessori. In rural and poor inner-city areas, it’s often well nigh impossible. Nearly sixty million Americans—almost one out of five—live in regions or neighborhoods designated by the federal government as primary care shortage areas."

"Part of the problem is that, due largely to the political power of specialists, the reimbursement rates paid by Medicare and private insurance are set far higher for specialists than for primary care doctors (for more, see “What the RUC?”). But our system for training doctors is also deeply at fault, with the country’s most elite and deeply subsidized teaching hospitals being by far the worst offenders. In the tables below, we show the nation’s largest residency programs ranked according to the percentage of primary care doctors they produce."

It is a fact that the greatest need is primary care physicians.

The AMA has not really opened the floodgates of medical schools: The rate of increase of medical schools has barely kept up with population rises. there have been only 13 new (allopathic) medical school opened in the US since 2002. That's about a 10% rise. There have been 15-17000 new med graduates, again 10%. these numbers are on par with population growth over that time.
 
Kent Syverud knows what he's doing. He came from Washington University which was ranked 6th in the nation for medial school research. It's ranked ahead of some very well known university medical schools like Duke, Yale, Columbia etc. I think he has a plan.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/12/medical-school-rankings-us-news-2014_n_2838713.html
And right on cue .. SUNY medical school is not happy:
http://www.syracuse.com/health/inde...n_for_two_medical_schools.html#incart_m-rpt-1
 
I never knew SU had a med school! I do know that when we moved here in 1984, it took me two years to realize that my husband worked at Upstate Med Center, not SU. Imagine my surprise!

I don't think this is a good idea, frankly. It's an appealing concept, I do understand that. Upstate has enough trouble finding clinical spots for their students. But I will stand patiently by while wiser minds than mine grapple with this.
 
It's a good idea to have your own again. In the year 2000 FSU opened the first new medical school in the USA in nearly 20 years I understood. I knew their first Dean as he was a biologist whose lab was across the hall from the physics lab where I was working. When Bowden was there some of the bowl money went to Strozier Library but I understood that a chemist who synthesized taxol from the Pacific yew tree was a source of the money. That compound is useful in cancer chemotherapy.
 
http://www.washingtonmonthly.com/ma...50498142331&action=collapse_widget&id=8589671

"Overwhelmingly, the greatest shortages of doctors today are primary care physicians and other generalists. According to a recent survey sponsored by the independent congressional agency MedPAC, finding a primary care doctor is highly problematic even for Americans with good health insurance. Among fully insured Americans over the age of fifty who went looking for a primary care doctor last year, fully one out of seven report it was a “big problem.” This is double the percent who report having trouble finding a specialist. Even in affluent parts of the country, finding a primary care doctor who is still taking new patients can require as much scheming as getting your three-year-old into Montessori. In rural and poor inner-city areas, it’s often well nigh impossible. Nearly sixty million Americans—almost one out of five—live in regions or neighborhoods designated by the federal government as primary care shortage areas."

"Part of the problem is that, due largely to the political power of specialists, the reimbursement rates paid by Medicare and private insurance are set far higher for specialists than for primary care doctors (for more, see “What the RUC?”). But our system for training doctors is also deeply at fault, with the country’s most elite and deeply subsidized teaching hospitals being by far the worst offenders. In the tables below, we show the nation’s largest residency programs ranked according to the percentage of primary care doctors they produce."

It is a fact that the greatest need is primary care physicians.

The AMA has not really opened the floodgates of medical schools: The rate of increase of medical schools has barely kept up with population rises. there have been only 13 new (allopathic) medical school opened in the US since 2002. That's about a 10% rise. There have been 15-17000 new med graduates, again 10%. these numbers are on par with population growth over that time.

I'm not disputing that there's a huge need for PCPs. But I would say that there is (or will be soon) an across the board shortage of MDs.

And while the increase in new MD schools has kept pace with the population since 2002, I would be interested in seeing the rate of medical school increase for the 15-20 years before 2002. I'd suspect it's quite a bit lower.
 
Kent Syverud knows what he's doing. He came from Washington University which was ranked 6th in the nation for medial school research. It's ranked ahead of some very well known university medical schools like Duke, Yale, Columbia etc. I think he has a plan.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/03/12/medical-school-rankings-us-news-2014_n_2838713.html
Agreed, Cherie. And I think Dr. K has a plan here that is deeper than what we see.

NY is in financial stress (as is SU, I know.). SUNY has two separate campuses operating in a three block or so area, each adjacent to a private University. Down the road in Ithaca, SUNY has three campuses that are all statutory colleges of the otherwise private university in town. The potential here for an overall win/win is hopefully something Syverud can see. Should ESF and Upstate become statutory colleges of Syracuse University, the potential exists for fairly significant cost savings in terms of eliminating some administration and sharing services from food service to janitorial to registration processing. Acknowledge there will be some job loss, but welcome to the world we live in.

SUNY could (gasp) save a few bucks on administration while still operating a teaching college and hospital. Said teaching college could absorb or add the additional medical program, and a revenue sharing agreement could address the issue of research funds, residuals, etc.

Dr. Syverud, I am available on either a contract or full time basis!
 
Agreed, Cherie. And I think Dr. K has a plan here that is deeper than what we see.

NY is in financial stress (as is SU, I know.). SUNY has two separate campuses operating in a three block or so area, each adjacent to a private University. Down the road in Ithaca, SUNY has three campuses that are all statutory colleges of the otherwise private university in town. The potential here for an overall win/win is hopefully something Syverud can see. Should ESF and Upstate become statutory colleges of Syracuse University, the potential exists for fairly significant cost savings in terms of eliminating some administration and sharing services from food service to janitorial to registration processing. Acknowledge there will be some job loss, but welcome to the world we live in.

SUNY could (gasp) save a few bucks on administration while still operating a teaching college and hospital. Said teaching college could absorb or add the additional medical program, and a revenue sharing agreement could address the issue of research funds, residuals, etc.

Dr. Syverud, I am available on either a contract or full time basis!
One need not look too far for an example of combined state and private colleges under the umbrella of a single (private) University ... there's one right down (By Edit) 81 (Cornell).
 
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One need not look too far for an example of combined state and private colleges under the umbrella of a single (private) University ... there's one right down the thruway (Cornell).

Down the Thruway? Syracuse and Ithaca are not connected by I-90.
 

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