SU Football Culture vs Clemson

[orangecuse]

In my opinion, there are layers to this issue regarding SU's culture relative to football. Several have been touched upon, and perhaps the consistent losing for so long is the most significant? One thing I didn't see mentioned is Syracuse being a private school vs. Clemson and so many other similar type state schools. Many of these other P5 football schools possessing such superior cultures are schools that are the state's flagship or the like, therefore, there's this huge state pride thing going on and following that Syracuse simply doesn't have.

Uniquely enough, Syracuse University bears the the name of the city it resides in, so it does/did bring in many of the townies, but it's not the same. Whether that's in part the university's fault to some degree due to its seemingly condescension and somewhat detachment from the surrounding community, etc., I don't know. Perhaps, the city/county as well have culpability here. However, even when we were good in the 90's as mentioned, pulling in an average of 40K for home games isn't really that impressive, especially when considering (back then) the population of the metropolitan area of Syracuse, its suburbs, etc. At the time, IMO, there was enough population to easily double that had the stadium held such capacity.

I am/was a townie and grew up in Liverpool in my my youth. Due to cost, etc. I went to a SUNY school, Buffalo, in the early to mid 80's. I recall when I was at Buffalo my junior/senior year, SU played Canisius at the Buffalo Auditorium. I went to the game with some suite-mates, all whom were from the state, but not Central NY. They, along with a lot of others that day, did not cheer for SU. And, a large percentage of the crowd booed JB like there was no tomorrow. I realize this example is hoops not football, however, my point is, many sections of the state (if not most) couldn't care a less about SU or its sports. It was like the state is/was divided into partitions, and once you were west of Rochester or east of Utica, SU might as well have been Georgetown. At least that's what I recall when I lived up there.

Living in the Charlotte, NC area since 1994, I don't know what it's like today. But, I would bet much of the same, not to mention the fact that a large percentage of the populus has left the Syracuse/metro area over the past few decades. Combining that with the constant losing (football) and lack of any real allegiance, the football culture being what it is, it's not that surprising.

 

[RandomGuy]

Yes, I noticed the stats that were used unfairly too.

Gotta compare apples to apples.

Apologies. I was very surprised by the income in Cuse. Onondaga County comes in at a more believable 62k median income. With our median home price being more than 4 times Cuse, I wrongly assumed it reflected the entire Cuse area.

So its not disposable income. Its a winning/culture thing.

 

[RandomGuy]

Attendance was quite good when the team was good. Far right column.

 

[FrancoPizza]

However, even when we were good in the 90's as mentioned, pulling in an average of 40K for home games isn't really that impressive, especially when considering (back then) the population of the metropolitan area of Syracuse, its suburbs, etc. At the time, IMO, there was enough population to easily double that had the stadium held such capacity.

Thats a bit of revisionist history. the metro population has been pretty much flat in the last couple decades. You make it sound like we’ve bled out 100,000 residents.

 

[Cusefan0307]

In my opinion, there are layers to this issue regarding SU's culture relative to football. Several have been touched upon, and perhaps the consistent losing for so long is the most significant? One thing I didn't see mentioned is Syracuse being a private school vs. Clemson and so many other similar type state schools. Many of these other P5 football schools possessing such superior cultures are schools that are the state's flagship or the like, therefore, there's this huge state pride thing going on and following that Syracuse simply doesn't have.

Uniquely enough, Syracuse University bears the the name of the city it resides in, so it does/did bring in many of the townies, but it's not the same. Whether that's in part the university's fault to some degree due to its seemingly condescension and somewhat detachment from the surrounding community, etc., I don't know. Perhaps, the city/county as well have culpability here. However, even when we were good in the 90's as mentioned, pulling in an average of 40K for home games isn't really that impressive, especially when considering (back then) the population of the metropolitan area of Syracuse, its suburbs, etc. At the time, IMO, there was enough population to easily double that had the stadium held such capacity.

I am/was a townie and grew up in Liverpool in my my youth. Due to cost, etc. I went to a SUNY school, Buffalo, in the early to mid 80's. I recall when I was at Buffalo my junior/senior year, SU played Canisius at the Buffalo Auditorium. I went to the game with some suite-mates, all whom were from the state, but not Central NY. They, along with a lot of others that day, did not cheer for SU. And, a large percentage of the crowd booed JB like there was no tomorrow. I realize this example is hoops not football, however, my point is, many sections of the state (if not most) couldn't care a less about SU or its sports. It was like the state is/was divided into partitions, and once you were west of Rochester or east of Utica, SU might as well have been Georgetown. At least that's what I recall when I lived up there.

Living in the Charlotte, NC area since 1994, I don't know what it's like today. But, I would bet much of the same, not to mention the fact that a large percentage of the populus has left the Syracuse/metro area over the past few decades. Combining that with the constant losing (football) and lack of any real allegiance, the football culture being what it is, it's not that surprising.

The Syracuse metro population is the same as it was in 1980. If anything the area and economy has improved since 1994. I know it’s a lot better here than when I graduated from SU in 2007.

 

[syrBossHogg]

The Syracuse MSA is up since 1980 but I think the rest of orangecuse points stand. Syracuse is a basketball town at this point, and even if the football program gets back to what they were in the 90s they would face issues like state regional pride and competition from the pro sport franchises. Clemson football is the top ticket in Upstate SC.

 

[orangecuse]

Thats a bit of revisionist history. the metro population has been pretty much flat in the last couple decades. You make it sound like we’ve bled out 100,000 residents.

The Syracuse metro population is the same as it was in 1980. If anything the area and economy has improved since 1994. I know it’s a lot better here than when I graduated from SU in 2007.

My bad on the population point, although, I do find that interesting, and somewhat surprising. The intent/mentioning of it was only as an additional/contributing factor type of thing. The crux of my post is where the lion's share of causation exists, and, IMO, are the problematic underlying issues.

 

[Cusefan0307]

My bad on the population point, although, I do find that interesting, and somewhat surprising. The intent/mentioning of it was only as an additional/contributing factor type of thing. The crux of my post is where the lion's share of causation exists, and, IMO, are the problematic underlying issues.

No worries. I think the region has a hard time shaking old narratives.

The area still has a higher family income than the U.S. average.

I think local economics have little bearing on the football program.

We have been bad for so long that people in their mid 30's were in middle school when we were consistently good. All of those people around here are basketball fans first.

 

[Scooch]

We've gone through this a million times. We graduate something like 3500 kids a year give or take, and they are almost all first generation alumni. They move to cities along I95 (and none of them are 3 hour drives, let's stop shaving hours off that drive) and as far as sports go live in an NFL / pro culture environment. And - they work for people who aren't taking Friday off to go to ole state U like they do in the South to party at their fraternity house from 1977 and look a bit ridiculous.

Syracuse people minus like a dozen posters here don't buy a vehicle with a tailgate party first in mind.

The quad stuff is fun, the school is doing what it can to maximize what they have. The bar scene is still an industry around fake IDs.

Flip side of the coin you could bubble Death Valley and put a court down and they'd get 11000 for a UNC hoops game.

I took my kids up to the Clemson game in 2019, and it was one of the most amazing game day atmospheres I ever experienced on the hill.

Northeast college football simply isn't the south, save for Happy Valley. But when SU is good, the Dome and campus is a great time. Problem is, we have largely been lousy for 20 years. All the marketing, food trucks, and bouncy houses in the world won't generate enthusiasm when the program is irrelevant.

 

[RandomGuy]

Onondaga County population 1980
463,000

2020
460,000.

By comparison my county has gone from. 190k to 310k over that time span. And yes. I wish they would all go back where they came from.

 

[Ozone!]

Clemson is a public university and Syracuse a private institution. When you have massive state funding it’s much easier to create both university and it’s close community infrastructure upgrades.


limited thinking and settling for lowered expectations.

Also, the northeast provides public parks and the south private golf courses.

The list of differences is huge and yet things could improve for Syracuse!

Also, Clemson is very close to fertile recruiting grounds and Cuse is not.

Excuse the pun, but, this is an apples and Oranges discussion!

 

[elimunelson]

I took my kids up to the Clemson game in 2019, and it was one of the most amazing game day atmospheres I ever experienced on the hill.

Northeast college football simply isn't the south, save for Happy Valley. But when SU is good, the Dome and campus is a great time. Problem is, we have largely been lousy for 20 years. All the marketing, food trucks, and bouncy houses in the world won't generate enthusiasm when the program is irrelevant.

Same here. I was impressed with how the campus looked that day. I think the issue is we're in the wrong conference culture wise. We knew it when we joined. ACC is a southern conference and things are done differently down south.

When we were playing Rutgers, Uconn, WVU yearly those games feel differently than NC State, FSU and Clemson.

I realized this when I went to the Gator Bowl in 96 and experienced the Clemson fanaticism in person. Those people live and die for college football. it's a cottage industry. For us northerners, college football is a Saturday. SEC/deep south ACC teams it's a 6 day a week preparation for gameday

 

[Scooch]

Same here. I was impressed with how the campus looked that day. I think the issue is we're in the wrong conference culture wise. We knew it when we joined. ACC is a southern conference and things are done differently down south.

When we were playing Rutgers, Uconn, WVU yearly those games feel differently than NC State, FSU and Clemson.

I realized this when I went to the Gator Bowl in 96 and experienced the Clemson fanaticism in person. Those people live and die for college football. it's a cottage industry. For us northerners, college football is a Saturday. SEC/deep south ACC teams it's a 6 day a week preparation for gameday

I think the ACC is actually OK for us, in terms of culture. The only ACC schools that seem to have an SEC-style rabidness to their football fanbases are Clemson, VaTech and FSU. Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see schools like UVA, UNC, GaTech, Louisville, etc. being in the same category (and certainly not Miami, Wake and Duke).

If SU were to be consistently good, the exposure to more passionate football fanbases might cause us to up our game a bit, which I believe we're capable of.

 

[NineOneSeven]

I was very disappointed by the off campus scene when my son and I visited campus last month. Of course it was June - and the students were gone. But M Street has completely diminished as has Greek row. (I’m cool with Greek row diminishing).

My point is - it doesn’t really seem like a college town anymore. Syracuse never will be Austin, or Madison, or Athens - but God, it just seemed dead and sterile. The campus has never looked better - but I gotta be frank - I was bored. We spent about 10 minutes walking around M street, bought some stuff at Schine. Really enjoyed walking around campus - but I doubt I’ll ever go back.

My dad, who’s also an alumni - came up all 4 years I was on the hill. He loved the energy and fun of M Street and of course Gameday. Maybe I’m looking at things as an old guy who thinks the old days were better.

Perhaps if the team recaptures SOME of the glory we enjoyed from ‘87-91 things will perk up a bit. Really hope so.

Yeah, did yourself no favors by going over the summer especially still rounding into form "post" pandemic. BUT, there is some truth in there regardless of that. For a school of Syracuse's stature (athletically, etc), the on campus night life is not spectacular from a bar standpoint. Then again, you are not going to bars sometimes until you are a JR, maybe even SR (in my case). At least legally. Plenty of fun to be had elsewhere (house parties, etc), but there are very limited options outside of that.

The removal of Chucks was actually very significant. That was the place for at least 1 night every weekend, and it was a blast. Downtown is really not far at all from campus, but it's not somewhere most students venture to for a couple of reasons: still not easily accessible from foot, and more expensive.

 

[FrancoPizza]

This is probably a silly comparison, but the metro area does turn out in droves for the state fair. Relative to the metro population base, it's probably the most well-attended state fair in the country. By daily average, the best attended fair is the Minnesota State Fair within the Minneapolis metro (population 3.2M). The Syracuse metro is ~660k by comparison. The Erie County Fair draws very similar numbers to Syracuse (or slightly less) but has twice the population (Buffalo metro).

Not sure if I really had a point here... but I do wonder if football attendance would have an appreciable bump if the Dome were at the fairgrounds and they played 3 home games during the fair's run. Similar to the Cotton Bowl inside the Texas State Fair.

 

[dlegend44]

Clemson is a public university and Syracuse a private institution. When you have massive state funding it’s much easier to create both university and it’s close community infrastructure upgrades.

IMO, the poor economy of Syracuse has been fostered by limited thinking and settling for lowered expectations.

Also, the northeast provides public parks and the south private golf courses.

The list of differences is huge and yet things could improve for Syracuse!

Also, Clemson is very close to fertile recruiting grounds and Cuse is not.

Excuse the pun, but, this is an apples and Oranges discussion!

View attachment 203586

I see it more like chess vs checkers, rather than apples and ORANGE. I was giving observations on a blue print that took Clemson from a very average program to world beaters. Only Alabama and Ohio State rival Clemson right now.

I am pretty sure there are fertile recruiting grounds for U Florida, U Texas, Florida St, UNC, U South Carolina, Georgia Tech, Miami, U Michigan, Michigan St, UCLA, USC, Oregon. Those schools also have rabid fan bases and lots of tradition. The list goes on and on with schools that can't match the secret sauce that Clemson has created and it goes deeper than just hiring Dabo or being in the south.

People don't usually accuse South Carolina of massively funding their public education system. Being a private university in NY is actually more beneficial from an athletics standpoint than being publicly funded by NY State. The public universities in California are struggling with athletic budget restrictions while private schools USC and Stanford have enjoyed more success.

I am not bagging on the Syracuse economy or location. The potential is there for success. People still flock to the NY State fair each year to eat festival food, take their life in their hands with carnie rides and stare at a freaking butter sculpture. Why not set-up that kind of atmosphere outside the dome for each home game? People that don't want to pay for tickets could enjoy craft beer tents and salt potatoes with public viewings of the game outside. I have to think that even a bad Syracuse football team is a more appealing draw than the butter sculpture. The fall weather in Syracuse is gorgeous, so why not show case it. My point is to make Syracuse Football Games an EVENT for the entire city and campus!

 

[Jeremy L.]

I agree with everything in the OP about making it a day-long event. I think the biggest problem is what's around the Dome. There's only 3 lots or so right near the Dome to walk to. The Manley parking lot is a great setup, but getting to the Dome can be frustrating with the buses. There's only a handful of bars/restaurants nearby and everything else is in Armory Square (not real walking distance). There isn't a ton to do on the quad besides listening to the band and eating/drinking (if you're able to get in).

It all depends on who you ask and what they want. I personally don't care much about the quad. I prefer grabbing food/drinks before the game or tailgating, and none of that can really be done around the Dome. I'm not sure what they can really do to boost up the pregame festivities on or around campus other than adding more places or running specials to draw people in.

 

[CuseCactus]

Yeah, did yourself no favors by going over the summer especially still rounding into form "post" pandemic. BUT, there is some truth in there regardless of that. For a school of Syracuse's stature (athletically, etc), the on campus night life is not spectacular from a bar standpoint. Then again, you are not going to bars sometimes until you are a JR, maybe even SR (in my case). At least legally. Plenty of fun to be had elsewhere (house parties, etc), but there are very limited options outside of that.

The removal of Chucks was actually very significant. That was the place for at least 1 night every weekend, and it was a blast. Downtown is really not far at all from campus, but it's not somewhere most students venture to for a couple of reasons: still not easily accessible from foot, and more expensive.

Eh. I drank on M Street my freshman year on. (Had a great fake ID.). But I digress.

 

[elimunelson]

Eh. I drank on M Street my freshman year on. (Had a great fake ID.). But I digress.

I had an Asian person's ID and drank liberally at 44's, Maggies frosh year. I am not Asian.

 

[NineOneSeven]

Eh. I drank on M Street my freshman year on. (Had a great fake ID.). But I digress.

Year?

 

[OrangeOnions]

Not sure if I really had a point here... but I do wonder if football attendance would have an appreciable bump if the Dome were at the fairgrounds and they played 3 home games during the fair's run. Similar to the Cotton Bowl inside the Texas State Fair.

Orangeyes & Citizen's for an All-purpose Stadium had the idea for a stadium at the fairgrounds many moons ago.

 

[GeauxSU]

Good post. It's not eight packed bars on the hill anymore but conversely in those days one only went to downtown for an internship.

They're bringing Chucks back as well as opening up a new bar in the old spot that DJ's on the Hill used to be in. Gaining traction...? I think bringing Chucks back will be great for students

 

[elimunelson]

They're bringing Chucks back as well as opening up a new bar in the old spot that DJ's on the Hill used to be in. Gaining traction...? I think bringing Chucks back will be great for students

Now need Marc Albert to reopen 44s, get Crazy Chris to fire up Maggie's again and we'll be cooking!

Not sure why having bars on campus is a problem. This is like Footloose outlawing dancing. I mean legalized weed is coming to NY inside of 24 months. City should really be accommodating to the Hill and allow for it to happen.

 

[Jeremy L.]

Now need Marc Albert to reopen 44s, get Crazy Chris to fire up Maggie's again and we'll be cooking!

Not sure why having bars on campus is a problem. This is like Footloose outlawing dancing. I mean legalized weed is coming to NY inside of 24 months. City should really be accommodating to the Hill and allow for it to happen.

To add, I think they need to add bars that aren't geared towards college kids as well. A Blue Tusk, Kitty Hoynes, Blarney, etc. style bar.

 

[690West]

I doubt I’ll ever go back.

Yikes!! Lol